Ant-Man Dammit, Janet! The official Wasp thread

[J'adore]

you didn't read the first few issues of Gambit, then. Captain America took some time out to workout shirtless recently, as well (Uncanny Avengers 3).

Stop right there. Because EVERYONE knows women have faced far worse objectification in comics. Don't even try to compare

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

Most female characters were not well written when they started out. Wasp, Jean Grey, Sue Storm, Wonder Woman, ect were all bad sterotpical female characters but they were a product of their times. All of them have improved over the years.

coincidentally, so have male characters.

 

[chamber-music]

I like how every man over twenty five smoked a pipe in 60s Marvel comics t:

 

[TheHeatKitchen]

Most female characters were not well written when they started out. Wasp, Jean Grey, Sue Storm, Wonder Woman, ect were all bad sterotpical female characters but they were a product of their times. All of them have improved over the years.

Sure, but the view of them by the fans clearly hasn't...

 

[TheHeatKitchen]

I like how every man over twenty five smoked a pipe in 60s Marvel comics t:

Wait, that doesn't still happen? I thought that was still considered normal.

 

[chamber-music]

I put spinach in mine like popeye

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

Stop right there. Because EVERYONE knows women have faced far worse objectification in comics. Don't even try to compare

Don't tell him not to try to compare.


women have faced far worse objectification on planet Earth. It's not exclusive to comics. Not to say its excusable but I think the point was that at least both the men and the women are near-caricatures in comics. All men are chiseled and well-hung, while all women are petite and well-endowed. Strong silent men and ditsy damsel women. Both could be considered exactly what attracted the opposite sex in those days. Am I wrong?

 

[Hawkingbird]

Don't tell him not to try to compare.


women have faced far worse objectification on planet Earth. It's not exclusive to comics. Not to say its excusable but I think the point was that at least both the men and the women are near-caricatures in comics. All men are chiseled and well-hung, while all women are petite and well-endowed. Strong silent men and ditsy damsel women. Both could be considered exactly what attracted the opposite sex in those days. Am I wrong?

I agree with you there. I think body image is unfair in comics on both sides. However women are objectified and sexualized.

 

[Xeno]

Don't tell him not to try to compare.


women have faced far worse objectification on planet Earth. It's not exclusive to comics. Not to say its excusable but I think the point was that at least both the men and the women are near-caricatures in comics. All men are chiseled and well-hung, while all women are petite and well-endowed. Strong silent men and ditsy damsel women. Both could be considered exactly what attracted the opposite sex in those days. Am I wrong?

While I'll grant that 90% of male characters are extremely muscular, most are also drawn with crotches that are as flat as Ken dolls. Not that I'm complaining, I'm just pointing that out.


Someone else mentioned sexualization of Gambit recently. When Gambit has 20+ years of treatment similar to that given Psylocke and Emma Frost behind him, then we can discuss the concept of equal objectification in the comics universe.

 

[Hawkingbird]

Yes, but in terms of sexualizing, it's a handful of male characters vs the majority of female characters.

 

[mkilban2]

who cares? sex sells.

 

[Hawkingbird]

who cares? sex sells.

I care because I don't want my sex being purley valued in the comic book industry for their body. I'm sorry if comic books are your only access to the female body because no woman wants to touch you or whatever, but that does not mean it's unimportant.

 

[mkilban2]

I care because I don't want my sex being purley valued in the comic book industry for their body. I'm sorry if comic books are your only access to the female body because no woman wants to touch you or whatever, but that does not mean it's unimportant.

Ouch.

That seemed a little brash and uncalled for Hawk since I attacked neither you nor the gender of women in any way. I don't and never have read comics so I can personally care less what is being shown on the pages or covers. There's a lot more to life than how the comic book industry or how any media portray women, men, dogs, water buffalo, or garden gnomes. It really should effect(affect?) your personal life and views zero percent.

I understand that women and men are, and rightfully should be equal. As well as any races or sexual preferences. And I will gladly stand up and defend those rights.

 

[Hawkingbird]

Ouch.

That seemed a little brash and uncalled for Hawk since I attacked neither you nor the gender of women in any way. I don't and never have read comics so I can personally care less what is being shown on the pages or covers. There's a lot more to life than how the comic book industry or how any media portray women, men, dogs, water buffalo, or garden gnomes. It really should effect(affect?) your personal life and views zero percent.

I understand that women and men are, and rightfully should be equal. As well as any races or sexual preferences. And I will gladly stand up and defend those rights.

I think the way media projects women is very influencial. In fact, my life has been wrecked by an eating disorder because of the image media puts on women. So please don't tell me that it is not influential. It applies to men to. Many men have fallen into an eating disorder because of the image they are told to have by the media.

 

[mkilban2]

I think the way media projects women is very influencial. In fact, my life has been wrecked by an eating disorder because of the image media puts on women. So please don't tell me that it is not influential. It applies to men to. Many men have fallen into an eating disorder because of the image they are told to have by the media.

I'm whole heartedly sorry that you've had to go through and experience that type of thing, but you must realize that you cannot let how the media portray women guide where your life should be or how you should look and act.

I saw in your profile that you're only 16 years old and I don't mean to belittle your knowledge or life experience to this point in your life but you'll realize that the only way to be happy is to live the life you want not the way others are telling you is the correct way to live.

I hope your personal problems have been solved or are in the process of being solved because I'd hate for anyone out there to be suffering.

 

[flickchick85]

who cares? sex sells.

This is disheartening. Female readers care. Male readers who don't want to be embarrassed reading those things should care. The portrayal of women (and other minorities, for that matter) in all forms of media remain to this day a problem, and the reason it's STILL a problem, even after the feminist revolution, the civil rights movement, etc, is because so many men (including the ones in power) still have this attitude of, "who cares." It's not gonna get better if only the marginalized are the ones who care. The members of the group that's doing marginalizing have to start caring too.

The media is what forms how the majority of people today see the world. If you say you believe in gender and racial equality and will fight to defend it, then how can you not support gender and racial equality in the media?

 

[mkilban2]

This is disheartening. Female readers care. Male readers who don't want to be embarrassed reading those things should care. The portrayal of women (and other minorities, for that matter) in all forms of media remain to this day a problem, and the reason it's STILL a problem, even after the feminist revolution, the civil rights movement, etc, is because so many men (including the ones in power) still have this attitude of, "who cares." It's not gonna get better if only the marginalized are the ones who care. The members of the group that's doing marginalizing have to start caring too.

The media is what forms how the majority of people today see the world. If you say you believe in gender and racial equality and will fight to defend it, then how can you not support gender and racial equality in the media?

I have no rebuttal, it was a *****ey thing to say there's no denying that. and I'm very sorry if what I said made you or others angry (which it clearly did), I just don't think people should be shaping their opinions through what Ms Marvel looks like on the pages of a comic or what Beyonce looks like in a commercial.

I know that the sad truth is most people are affected by those things, but it's silly to me. If I feel self conscious about see Ryan Reynolds six pack and not having one myself then I'm going to get off my ass and go to the gym not loathe in self pity when I see him on TV.

I don't think its as much a fault of the media using sexual appeal to sell a product, that makes sense. But when people see those outlets and then flip it into themselves not being up to a certain standard that's all a personal problem not the media.

But I really don't want to argue personal feelings on equality, I think we share a similar feeling I just get frustrated when people let the media mold their minds into what one should be and I took it out in a childish way with my comment.

 

[InternetPeople]

This is disheartening. Female readers care. Male readers who don't want to be embarrassed reading those things should care. The portrayal of women (and other minorities, for that matter) in all forms of media remain to this day a problem, and the reason it's STILL a problem, even after the feminist revolution, the civil rights movement, etc, is because so many men (including the ones in power) still have this attitude of, "who cares." It's not gonna get better if only the marginalized are the ones who care. The members of the group that's doing marginalizing have to start caring too.

The media is what forms how the majority of people today see the world. If you say you believe in gender and racial equality and will fight to defend it, then how can you not support gender and racial equality in the media?

Female readers care. All fifty of them. The comic industry knows who their target market is and caters to them. If you don't like it, don't read it. This is a free market in a country that has free speech. If the comic industry thought it was a good idea to change their formula, they would. They aren't purposely giving up market share so they can continue to exploit women and minorities for fun. The comic market is incredibly small and changing the formula may not have good results, even if you, the female reader, feel better about yourself.

You ought to be aware that free speech allows for these things to continue and the free market satiates the demand. Eliminate our rights and control the market and you can have your perfect little world.

If you want to get their attention, you need to stop giving them money. By purchasing their products, you are saying it is ok to continue doing what they're doing. You can yell and scream all you want but in the end, if they have your money, then you must have liked their product and they will continue to make more.

Marvel realizes what they're doing with their characters because they change them for the screen to make them less sexual or whatever and more desirable to the masses. The problem for the comic book as a form of media is that it has a narrow appeal. Those that purchase comics have been speaking for a long time and this current form of comic book is what they were demanding.

Note: I agree with your general desires for the industry to change but I am under no illusion it will. I don't purchase comics and therefore have no say in the market. I really do agree with you.

 

[flickchick85]

Female readers care. All fifty of them. The comic industry knows who their target market is and caters to them. If you don't like it, don't read it. This is a free market in a country that has free speech. If the comic industry thought it was a good idea to change their formula, they would. They aren't purposely giving up market share so they can continue to exploit women and minorities for fun. The comic market is incredibly small and changing the formula may not have good results, even if you, the female reader, feel better about yourself.

You ought to be aware that free speech allows for these things to continue and the free market satiates the demand. Eliminate our rights and control the market and you can have your perfect little world.

If you want to get their attention, you need to stop giving them money. By purchasing their products, you are saying it is ok to continue doing what they're doing. You can yell and scream all you want but in the end, if they have your money, then you must have liked their product and they will continue to make more.

Marvel realizes what they're doing with their characters because they change them for the screen to make them less sexual or whatever and more desirable to the masses. The problem for the comic book as a form of media is that it has a narrow appeal. Those that purchase comics have been speaking for a long time and this current form of comic book is what they were demanding.

Note: I agree with your general desires for the industry to change but I am under no illusion it will. I don't purchase comics and therefore have no say in the market. I really do agree with you.

A cynical view, but I hear what you're saying. And I'm not saying it should be illegal or that we should take away anyone's rights. I'm suggesting exactly what you are - for comics readers, don't buy those comics, send a message. Apathy or indifference just doesn't help.

I do disagree that it won't change, though. It IS changing, imo. Have you taken a look at Ms. Marvel recently? She's Captain Marvel now for one, she's not overtly sexualized in her current series in the slightest, and it's a wonderful book. Sure, it's just one example, but it's also one step in the right direction of a very uphill battle. The change will come faster when we start supporting books like that, and stop supporting the trashier, exploitative ones.

I have no rebuttal, it was a *****ey thing to say there's no denying that. and I'm very sorry if what I said made you or others angry (which it clearly did), I just don't think people should be shaping their opinions through what Ms Marvel looks like on the pages of a comic or what Beyonce looks like in a commercial.

I know that the sad truth is most people are affected by those things, but it's silly to me. If I feel self conscious about see Ryan Reynolds six pack and not having one myself then I'm going to get off my ass and go to the gym not loathe in self pity when I see him on TV.

I don't think its as much a fault of the media using sexual appeal to sell a product, that makes sense. But when people see those outlets and then flip it into themselves not being up to a certain standard that's all a personal problem not the media.

But I really don't want to argue personal feelings on equality, I think we share a similar feeling I just get frustrated when people let the media mold their minds into what one should be and I took it out in a childish way with my comment.

No worries, we all make thoughtless comments every now and then. I do think we're on the same page, but I should add that whether or not we should allow the media to shape our perceptions, the fact is that most people do. And considering that that is the sole purpose of the media's existence, they can't plead ignorance or claim zero accountability for that. It's why they offer apologies or get fined by the FCC all the time - because we all know that what they choose to show actually affects people. And they do widely perpetuate the casual systematic misogyny, xenophobia, homophobia and racism that permeates our culture through their choices of portrayals. So I do think a lot of the responsibility does fall on them, but yes, it is also up to us to form our own thoughts and opinions based on what we see around us and the information we have. The thing is though, the majority of what we see around us and most of the places we get that information from is through the media in some way, so it's something of a vicious cycle.

 

[Hawkingbird]

I think writers need to start homing in more on the female characters, give them un-sexualised costumes and stronger personalities. Captain Marvel is a perfect example. We need more than that.

 

[InternetPeople]

A cynical view, but I hear what you're saying. And I'm not saying it should be illegal or that we should take away anyone's rights. I'm suggesting exactly what you are - for comics readers, don't buy those comics, send a message. Apathy or indifference just doesn't help.

I do disagree that it won't change, though. It IS changing, imo. Have you taken a look at Ms. Marvel recently? She's Captain Marvel now for one, she's not overtly sexualized in her current series in the slightest, and it's a wonderful book. Sure, it's just one example, but it's also one step in the right direction of a very uphill battle. The change will come faster when we start supporting books like that, and stop supporting the trashier, exploitative ones.

I am happy to hear that at least one character is changing. I believe the changes are for the better, though I really don't have anything to base that on. Maybe changing them in the comics will lead to greater appeal and a larger market share. Captain Marvel may be one example, but if that example can show strong sales it will lead the way for more characters being presented in the same way. Captain Marvel is just a test. Vote with your money.

Did Captain Marvel used to be named Ms. Marvel? That name change makes a difference by itself. Re-naming her Captain Marvel makes her sound more capable, whether she is or not.

 

[chamber-music]

I think writers need to start homing in more on the female characters, give them un-sexualised costumes and stronger personalities. Captain Marvel is a perfect example. We need more than that.

What have you thought of Jan in Uncanny avengers Hawkingbird?

 

[Ant-manic]

she's definately not shy.

 

[flickchick85]

Did Captain Marvel used to be named Ms. Marvel? That name change makes a difference by itself. Re-naming her Captain Marvel makes her sound more capable, whether she is or not.

Yep, she started with the name "Ms. Marvel" because she was a legacy character who got her powers from the original Captain Marvel (Mar-Vell). But he's been dead for ages while Ms. Marvel went on to become a major character of her own, so last year, Marvel finally decided that it was time for her to take up the mantle of Captain Marvel officially, and they now have her headlining her own series under that title. And I agree, it's a great change.

 

[Hawkingbird]

What have you thought of Jan in Uncanny avengers Hawkingbird?

I don't read the current series (I'm a year behind on the Ces). But, I think I like it. I'm split on whether I like the concept of Uncanny Avengers in all honesty.