Justice League Danny Elfman Scoring Justice League - Part 2

[matt47]

Elfman said in one of his interviews that he is not developing a complete Flash theme, he has given motifs, and he thinks that the person who will score for Flash movie will use that to develop the full Flash theme.

But hhe won't do that for bats n supes previous themes...

 

[Micromind]

But hhe won't do that for bats n supes previous themes...

Yeah, I think he was not willing putting in enough effort into this.

 

[Elevator Man]

I don't remember Elfman actually expecting or assuming the composer for the Flash movie to develop his motif into the full Flash theme.


Did you write new themes for such characters as Flash and Aquaman?

I created very simple motifs. There are so many themes, you can’t just do a big theme for everything. So i created a motif for Flash, for Aquaman and Cyborg -- but they’re very simple things, and [DC] understood. I said, "These things may never be used again, but I’m giving you all the components, should you wish to have things to build on." So they either will or they won’t, but that’s how I approach a project like this. You have to take the attitude that this is the beginning of a mythology and it all matters, it all comes to fruition, and with any luck they will.

 

[Micromind]

I don't remember Elfman actually expecting or assuming the composer for the Flash movie to develop his motif into the full Flash theme.

Originally Posted by Danny Elfman
I created very simple motifs. There are so many themes, you can’t just do a big theme for everything. So i created a motif for Flash, for Aquaman and Cyborg -- but they’re very simple things, and [DC] understood. I said, "These things may never be used again, but I’m giving you all the components, should you wish to have things to build on." So they either will or they won’t, but that’s how I approach a project like this. You have to take the attitude that this is the beginning of a mythology and it all matters, it all comes to fruition, and with any luck they will

Did you write new themes for such characters as Flash and Aquaman?

Elfman said in one of his interviews that he is not developing a complete Flash theme, he has given motifs, and he thinks that the person who will score for Flash movie will use that to develop the full Flash theme.

Have I said anything contradictory in my earlier post ? I have never said that Elfman has said that the next composer of Flash movie has to use his motifs, just that he thinks that they will. (and I was paraphrasing here, those were not his exact words, so you will have to excuse my wording..)

 

[Gu3ree]

When Elfman said this was the most fun he had composing a score for a film in a long time...eh then why did you put so little effort into creating original themes rather than using your old ones?

 

[kguillou]

My frustration with Elfman in this film is he didnt commit to the old themes either. He did semi homages to them when he should have just used them in all their glory. When Batman was in the Batmobile fighting the parademons that was when Elfman should have used the FULL Batman 89 march not a quick seven second version of it. What he did felt like a blue balls tease, if your gonna use the old themes USE them.

 

[Consona]

The problem with these types of videos is that they're made by amateur editors, using score cues from other movies with a different context. When John Williams reuses themes, he doesn't just plop it into the new film exactly the same, he adapts, modifies and re-orchestrates it to suit the new scene.

It's really hard to compare contemporary composers with Williams. He's a trained jazz pianist, he made Star Wars when he was 45 and all those other big scores came after that. He was quite a master before he even made his signature stuff. And his harmonic vocabulary, his compositional and orchestration skills, his ability to come up with a theme and develop it are out of this world compared to what we get these days.

A current bar of becoming a composer for big projects is quite low compared to the business like 40-50 years ago. The scores these days do serviceable job but composition wise they are so weak. Williams' original trilogy SW stuff is light-years ahead from what we get now. Not only the pieces have great inner structure and they tell the story of the movies impeccably but those whole scores have their own symphonic long-form structure. It's something really exceptional these days while back in Herrmann and Goldsmith days, it was a norm. Plus all those guys were very literate in classical music, they knew all those complicated and great harmonic progression, etc.

Now? Compare Goldsmith's and Horner's Star Trek and Williams' Star Wars stuff to Giacchino's music. I mean, poor guy, those are impossibly huge shoes to fill and even thought he's a talented guy, he's nowhere near skill/craft-wise. And don't get me started on things like The Winter Soldier soundtrack. Half of the music is not even Music Composition 101 level of quality. That's shocking to me.

I agree with most of you here that compared to what Elfman delivered (even though I mostly like it), a proper Zimmer/Holkenborg score would've suited the film better. I still have my doubts that Junkie would've been able to create enough thematic depth without Zimmer, though. I would be interested in someday hearing what he came up with.

Yea, I'd love to hear that too.

 

[Elevator Man]

When Elfman said this was the most fun he had composing a score for a film in a long time...eh then why did you put so little effort into creating original themes rather than using your old ones?

Don't recall Elfman ever saying that. I doubt he had fun scoring a subpar final product that was being rushed, re-edited and reshot, where most of the time he was writing music to mostly storyboards. I understand that the effects weren't finished but it's baffling that a 2017 big budget movie of this scale had to resort to storyboards instead previs for Elfman score to.

My frustration with Elfman in this film is he didnt commit to the old themes either. He did semi homages to them when he should have just used them in all their glory. When Batman was in the Batmobile fighting the parademons that was when Elfman should have used the FULL Batman 89 march not a quick seven second version of it. What he did felt like a blue balls tease, if your gonna use the old themes USE them.

Then the DCEU fanboys would've complained about the old themes overshadowing the score. They've already complained ad nauseam about Elfman ignoring Zimmer's MOS and Batfleck's theme because of thematic continuity. They've complained about Elfman's rendition of the Wonder Woman riff even though all that mattered to them before they heard it was that he used it. Now they're complaining about old themes not being used to its full glory. Talk about being hard to please. I understood why Elfman decided to needle drop the old themes because he didn't want any of the themes/motifs for any specific character (including Flash, Aquaman and Cyborg) to over shadow the score. This was an ensemble movie and not a solo Batman, Superman, etc movie.

 

[kguillou]

Don't recall Elfman ever saying that. I doubt he had fun scoring a subpar final product that was being rushed, re-edited and reshot, where most of the time he was writing music to mostly storyboards. I understand that the effects weren't finished but it's baffling that a 2017 big budget movie of this scale had to resort to storyboards instead previs for Elfman score to.


Then the DCEU fanboys would've complained about the old themes overshadowing the score. They've already complained ad nauseam about Elfman ignoring Zimmer's MOS and Batfleck's theme because of thematic continuity. They've complained about Elfman's rendition of the Wonder Woman riff even though all that mattered to them before they heard it was that he used it. Now they're complaining about old themes not being used to its full glory. Talk about being hard to please. I understood why Elfman decided to needle drop the old themes because he didn't want any of the themes/motifs for any specific character (including Flash, Aquaman and Cyborg) to over shadow the score. This was an ensemble movie and not a solo Batman, Superman, etc movie.

See, I dont get that. Full disclosure I was one of the ones complaining about the replacement of Junkie to Elfman BUT I think most of us figured "ok, it is what it is, Junkies gone, if theyre gonna use Elfman then USE Elfman" I literally dont see Elfman using his full Batman themes during the cool Batman moments as something that would hurt the film. It would only enhance it. Batman hitting the streets blasting parademons to his classic theme song shouldve been a fist pumping, round of applause moment but because the theme was only "needle dropped" and the volume was so low on it ( which i know Elfman has no control over) that scene had no adrenanline or excitement to it. Much like this whole movie, it felt like blue balls-- teasing something potentially awesome.

Elfman kept bragging about how his Batman theme is THE Batman theme and yet he was afraid to use it when i came down to put up or shut up.

 

[Elevator Man]

I doubt Elfman was afraid to use his Batman theme. Despite what his detractors believe Elfman has matured from his writing style and approach to film scoring over 30 years ago. Fans were setting themselves up for disappointment if they were expecting Elfman to write a score in the vein of Batman '89' and Batman Returns or vintage Elfman. A lot of his scores today are very motif driven. His motifs for Spidey, Hulk, and Hellboy weren't big bold themes as his Batman, 90s Flash, and Dick Tracy themes. In fact, most superhero/action movie scores are a lot more motif driven than they were in the 70s, 80s, and 90s. Rather you like it or not the JL score and his adapting of his own Batman and Williams' Superman themes was an example of modern Elfman's approach. You either like it or you dislike it.

 

[markjoedelonge]

See, I dont get that. Full disclosure I was one of the ones complaining about the replacement of Junkie to Elfman BUT I think most of us figured "ok, it is what it is, Junkies gone, if theyre gonna use Elfman then USE Elfman" I literally dont see Elfman using his full Batman themes during the cool Batman moments as something that would hurt the film. It would only enhance it. Batman hitting the streets blasting parademons to his classic theme song shouldve been a fist pumping, round of applause moment but because the theme was only "needle dropped" and the volume was so low on it ( which i know Elfman has no control over) that scene had no adrenanline or excitement to it. Much like this whole movie, it felt like blue balls-- teasing something potentially awesome.

Elfman kept bragging about how his Batman theme is THE Batman theme and yet he was afraid to use it when i came down to put up or shut up.

Exactly. Although to be fair, he did go all-out on the march for the Batmobile entrance, but it was buried under the SFX.

 

[RomanticPenguin]

 

[kguillou]

I was just watching a video on youtube this guy did with Junkie's "Do You Bleed" score over the final climax sequence, my goodness, it is just night and day. The score fits so well and gives the whole sequence a kick of adrenaline. I just don't think, musically, Elfman was a fit for this particular movie, you can practically tell Snyder filmed the movie with Junkie/ Zimmer's music in his head.

 

[Arachnerd]

PM pretty please? t:

 

[combocaz]

I personally didnt like elfmans score and i much preferred the themes for batman and superman that junkie and hans provided. It all just sounded out of place and outdated.

 

[Elayis]

http://www.hans-zimmer.com/index.php?rub=disco&id=1611

Turns out I was right; Junkie only worked on a small portion of the final cues on BvS (7 out of 53), which makes his co-composer credit even stranger than I originally thought. Heck, Mazzaro should’ve been the one to get it out of anybody, seeing as how he worked on nearly 2/3 of the score.

And, as I’ve been repeatedly been saying for months, Zimmer did indeed compose the new Batman theme by himself; whatever input Junkie had was so minimal as to ultimately deserve no credit.

This is in sharp contrast with the fact that Junkie played a much larger role in defining the sound of MoS, creating Zod’s theme as well as conducting and evolving the score’s signature drum aesthetic.

I wonder if Junkie’s less than advertised involvement was due to other commitments (Deadpool, among others) or Zimmer taking a more active role in the scoring, either out of enthusiasm or necessity. Or maybe the other additional composers (Mazzaro, Kawczynski and Wallfisch) simply picked up Junkie’s slack.

Junkie worked on some important cues (Do You Bleed, Fight Night, Men Are Still Good), as well as composing the only big motif not handled by Zimmer himself (the Black & Blue fight theme), so it’s not as if his touch is absent from the film. It’s just a lot less than the co-composer credit would lead you to believe.

I think all of this justifies my skepticism in Junkie being the lead composer on JL. Sure, his solo work on 300, Mad Max (and maybe Divergent) was strong, but there was also a lack of the kind of thematic depth that Zimmer brought to MoS and BvS. Junkie only has one mode that he excels at, loud and epic; his quieter scores for Black Mass and Distance Between Dreams amounting to little more than sound design atmospherics. His scores also tend to sound the same, as if they all belong to the same franchise; compare the action scoring of 300, Mad Max, Divergent and his DCEU work, and they also sound virtually identical.

It’s only speculation, but it’s not hard to imagine that his JL score would’ve consisted solely of reprises of existing themes song with a new JL theme in Junkie’s signature Mad Max/Do You Bleed style. It might’ve been more in line with the established sound of the DCEU, as well as maintaining thematic continuity, but it wouldn’t have pushed boundaries like Zimmer’s work on MoS & BvS.

Elfman’s work may not have been what some fans were hoping for, but I think we got the more inventive and interesting option of the two choices available. There’s also no telling whether Junkie would’ve even worked well with Whedon, as they clearly had different ideas and sensibilities when it came to what JL should sound like. And who knows whether using the classic themes was Whedon/Elfman’s idea or the studio’s; maybe if Junkie had stayed on he would’ve been told to use the old themes anyways?

But I can respect the argument that Whedon was brought on to complete Snyder’s vision, and as such the original composer should’ve been retained. In the end, though, Junkie scoring JL wouldn’t have changed the ultimate end result of the film. With the amount of leeway Whedon was given the movie was never going to be a faithful execution of what Snyder wanted (which may or may not have been better than what we got, or been more successful at the box office).

I’d still argue that the bulk of the film remains Snyder’s, but it’s been compromised and twisted; the kind of extensive last-minute change that this film went through with two distinct styles and personalities clashing against each other was never going to result in a coherent or satisfactory movie. It was half-assed, leaving neither the Snyder or classic DC fans happy. Production on JL had already been completed, and WB should’ve stuck to their guns no matter the outcome. Whedon might’ve been able to include some nice character interactions, but the mess the plot and villain was reduced to (not to mention the PR nightmare this film became) can’t have been the better option.

Going on for this long I’m not sure anymore what my original point was. WB was stuck with the fact that they’d allowed Snyder to move ahead with JL before BvS had even released, unaware of how divisive that film would ultimately be. Who knows if the film would’ve been altered to the extent that it ultimately was if Snyder had been able to stay on; maybe Whedon only got away with so much because he now ran the show, and wasn’t just the reshoot writer.

I think my point was just that the film was irrevocably altered the day Whedon named de facto director—placed in charge of not just the reshoots but all of post production—and that a Junkie score wouldn’t have amounted to much difference in the final product. I’m also skeptical of what it would’ve sounded like, and whether he would’ve been able to bring anything new to the table. Some people might’ve been happy with simple restatements of existing themes, but at least Elfman tried something a little different.


Now that I’ve finished and looked back at what I wrote, I’d like to apologize for this ridiculously long (and possibly somewhat off-topic) post. I only intended to comment a little on Junkie’s surprising amount of involvement on BvS and what that might’ve meant for JL, but that led to thinking about JL as a whole and before I knew it I had this inexcusably huge wall of text.

 

[markjoedelonge]

I'm just happy we might get the BVS expanded score.

 

[matt47]

I'm just happy we might get the BVS expanded score.

It'll come in handy when doing the JL fan edit

 

[markjoedelonge]

It'll come in handy when doing the JL fan edit

I was thinking the exact same thing.

 

[matt47]

I was thinking the exact same thing.

I'm so excited for it aye. I can't wait to have the music from the nuke scene, Bruces workout, finding the Kryptonite etc.

OH and mostly the music from the Lois and Clark scenes. The slowed down version of their theme. It'll be really handy for the Lois n Clark scenes in JL.

 

[markjoedelonge]

I'm so excited for it aye. I can't wait to have the music from the nuke scene, Bruces workout, finding the Kryptonite etc.

OH and mostly the music from the Lois and Clark scenes. The slowed down version of their theme. It'll be really handy for the Lois n Clark scenes in JL.

I can't wait for the altered version of "Day of the Dead" they used when Superman was going to the Capitol.

 

[matt47]

I can't wait for the altered version of "Day of the Dead" they used when Superman was going to the Capitol.

Awh **** yes.

 

[idiot09]

Awh **** yes.

The piece I'm waiting for is when Bruce stares at the batsuit. God my body is not ready.

 

[Micromind]

It'll come in handy when doing the JL fan edit

Good..Good..

 

[Elayis]

The piece I'm most looking forward to is Bruce's melancholy piano theme. Can't remember if there was more than the one appearance (after his bad dream), but even if there's not it'll be nice to have the cue more or less by itself so I can play it on repeat. It's such a great piece of music, wish there were more opportunities in the movie for that kind of tempo.

It would've made for a nice piece to reprise in JL, too.