Dark Phoenix Dark Phoenix vs The Last Stand

[Charzhin0]

I doubt X3 is winning this poll because they finally have developed a fandom for that film after not liking it for 13 years. It’s all about weighing the plus/minuses of two really bad movies. Is Dark Phoenix the worst X-Men movie or is X3.

Actually I suspect the majority would label a apocalypse as the worst. That movie is the absolute abortion of the series in my mind.

Apocalypse would be a probable contender for worst Xmen yes. But looking at critic, audience and box office results Dark Phoenix is well below both Apocalypse and X3

 

[Hammer!]

The new Godzilla movie reminded me of how awful Apocalypse was.

 

[DACrowe]

Its not revisionism you'll find people such as in this thread who always thought X3 wasnt the disaster as its been made out.

I was only comparing the action between the 2 movies. The space scene is splendid but the rest of the movies high budget (supposedly) action is a step down from X3; quite clearly in terms of frequency and scale.

As for the drama at the climax I cant see how you can claim Dark Phoenix has more of it. Before Jean rises with Vuk to destroy herself, do we get anything close to the dramatic final moments when Wolverine is resisting Jeans shredding and eventually stabs her? All i recall is Cyclops shouting Jeaaan before she rises up and dies. Pretty anti climatic

Yeah, to me that is mostly revisionism for people nostalgic for the old cast. I know, you or others might disagree, but TLS is a true train wreck of a movie (more so IMO than Dark Phoenix).

The ending of the Dark Phoenix Saga should be about Jean, and the end of it in the movie Dark Phoenix is about Jean and her choice. That is very much more satisfying than Jean turning a bunch of red shirts to dust (which they repeated in the new movie, but at least it was done as an act of her taking control and not being out of control) and then getting killed by Wolverine. The ending is not about Jean, it is about Logan's man pain due to having killed the woman he claimed to love. But since they never got further than him kissing her once--and she then rejecting him--it doesn't mean anything. For all its flaws, the end of the new movie is about Jean taking control of her destiny, which is more satisfying.

And speaking strictly on action, the stunts and cinematography were better in DP all-around. There might be fewer action scenes, but I'll take that over that canned Danger Room scene or that silly scene of Wolverine killing henchmen in the forest so there can be another action scene every 20 minutes.

 

[DACrowe]

The new Godzilla movie reminded me of how awful Apocalypse was.

Out of curiosity because it was better or worse?

 

[Hammer!]

Out of curiosity because it was better or worse?

About the same but Godzilla was probably worse. They both had the similar story structure of boring, repetitive recruitmenting/awakenings taking up a good chunk of the movie. That’s what connected the films for me. Apocalypse has four scenes of him going to a Horseman recruit, giving same speech, rinse and repeat. Godzilla: three or four scenes at different bunker with hibernating monster same speech, ideology given.

Apocalypse didn’t have the four scenes of a monster about to kill a family member only to be saved by Big G at the last minute though. Or the horrible Vera Farmiga motivation, Japanese characters talking about fortunes cookies type jokes, and was thankfully about twenty minutes shorter.

 

[Hammer!]

I just realized the writer/director of Godzilla wrote Apocalypse didn’t he!? That would explain the Vera Farmiga/X2 scene at the end too!

 

[Marvel united]

The Last Stand for me is a bit better.

 

[Mike Murdock]

You shouldn't. At least the critics would agree with us on this one.

22% vs 57%. no contest.

Just to be clear, that's not what Rotten Tomatoes measures. It measures the percentage of critics who think the movie is more good than bad. It doesn't measure the overall rating of those movies. Metacritic is better for that. But, even then, for it to be an apples to apples comparison, you need the same critics reviewing both movies.

 

[psylockolussus]

Rottentomatoes.com just ranked all the X-Men movies in an article. Dark Phoenix was last.

 

[DACrowe]

I just realized the writer/director of Godzilla wrote Apocalypse didn’t he!? That would explain the Vera Farmiga/X2 scene at the end too!

Haha, yeah I thought that was why you were making the comparison. For what it's worth I liked Godzilla A LOT more than Apocalypse, Dark Phoenix, or The Last Stand. It looked pretty and didn't take itself so seriously while being so messy. But eh, no matter what Matthew Dougherty also made Trick 'r Treat, which is a cult classic in my book.

 

[Hammer!]

Haha, yeah I thought that was why you were making the comparison. For what it's worth I liked Godzilla A LOT more than Apocalypse, Dark Phoenix, or The Last Stand. It looked pretty and didn't take itself so seriously while being so messy. But eh, no matter what Matthew Dougherty also made Trick 'r Treat, which is a cult classic in my book.

Yeah I loved that film and Krampus. Didn’t this guy made those films either until today.

 

[Mike Murdock]

Rottentomatoes.com just ranked all the X-Men movies in an article. Dark Phoenix was last.

I think Rotten Tomatoes deserves a lot of blame for perpetuating the misconception of what their own service is, but it doesn't change my point.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Xavier - TLS
Magneto - TLS
Jean - DP
Cyclops - DP
Storm - TLS
Beast - DP
Mystique - TLS
Story - DP
Action - TLS
Overall cast - TLS

 

[psylockolussus]

I think Rotten Tomatoes deserves a lot of blame for perpetuating the misconception of what their own service is, but it doesn't change my point.

Nope.

 

[Mike Murdock]

Excellent rebuttal. I stand rebuked.

 

[TWayneP]

Yeah, to me that is mostly revisionism for people nostalgic for the old cast. I know, you or others might disagree, but TLS is a true train wreck of a movie (more so IMO than Dark Phoenix).

The ending of the Dark Phoenix Saga should be about Jean, and the end of it in the movie Dark Phoenix is about Jean and her choice. That is very much more satisfying than Jean turning a bunch of red shirts to dust (which they repeated in the new movie, but at least it was done as an act of her taking control and not being out of control) and then getting killed by Wolverine. The ending is not about Jean, it is about Logan's man pain due to having killed the woman he claimed to love. But since they never got further than him kissing her once--and she then rejecting him--it doesn't mean anything. For all its flaws, the end of the new movie is about Jean taking control of her destiny, which is more satisfying.

And speaking strictly on action, the stunts and cinematography were better in DP all-around. There might be fewer action scenes, but I'll take that over that canned Danger Room scene or that silly scene of Wolverine killing henchmen in the forest so there can be another action scene every 20 minutes.

Preach. The action in TLS was soulless nonsense. The action in DP actually meant something, even if underwhelming. There were no corny bowling pin sound effects in Dark Phoenix. Nothing as bad as the "Juggernaut *****" line in Dark Phoenix... That whole movie has absolutely no reason to exist. It doesn't tell any story. The cure ends up not being a thing that matters at all. All this death and conflict for nothing, maybe if that was a story point, it would have been worthwhile, but nope. Character motivations go against what was established, Jean is a prop and only a prop... There is no story.

Dark Phoenix tells a focused, tragic story about a woman who's an established hero, who has immense power taking control of her via an accident, and learns how to deal with it corrupting her. Corrupting her mind and relationships with friends and family, and we see how they both learn from each other in the end. A hero who has to fight against their darkest nature brought to light. It shows how she evolves into something more and uses a tragedy for redemption and saves the world. Characters respect each other and what's established in previous movies, the story sticks to it's guns and has a meaning to exist. It asks questions, and challenges what we know of X-Men movies. It's messy as hell, and has big ideas with limited execution... but it's all there.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who voted for Last Stand, doesn't actually know what makes a decent, competent movie.

 

[rebellion]

The last stand, and its not even close. Dark phoenix is almost unwatchable imo.

 

[metaphysician]

There are two questions being asked here, that aren't really the same: which is the better movie, and which is a better adaptation of the Dark Phoenix story. I would say that The Last Stand is inarguably a better movie, filled as it is with characters you can actually care about and plot beats that largely make sense. However, its really not a Dark Phoenix story, primarily, but a Mutant Cure storyline with Dark Phoenix awkwardly affixed as the B-plot. DP might be a marginally better adaptation, though, simply for dedicating the whole movie to that as the plot.

 

[henzINNIT]

If you're comparing with solely Jean in mind, then Dark Phoenix does a much better job of giving her agency and things to do. The Phoenix related fx are better too and I quite like Zimmer's score. Scott also benefits by staying alive.

But that's about it. Characters are shafted in both. Potential is squandered in both. Ratner may be a hack but he's a better director than Kinberg. The scripts are (unsurprisingly) both weak.

I give the edge to Last Stand. It has more moments that stand out. It's amazing how similar the issues are considering 13 years of progress.

 

[P Supreme]

I'll take the last stand here too first we actually get a legit Beast played by Grammer not Hulk beast which betrays the charater in every way

Gargage alien plot <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< the cure [and I hated the cure plot]

Magneto's underground lair >>>>>>>>>>>>>>scrap yard Genosha

Famke was a better Jean without a doubt nothing against Turner I hope to see her in more projects but she was given dogcrap as a sscript

 

[carpenter82]

Preach. The action in TLS was soulless nonsense. The action in DP actually meant something, even if underwhelming. There were no corny bowling pin sound effects in Dark Phoenix. Nothing as bad as the "Juggernaut *****" line in Dark Phoenix... That whole movie has absolutely no reason to exist. It doesn't tell any story. The cure ends up not being a thing that matters at all. All this death and conflict for nothing, maybe if that was a story point, it would have been worthwhile, but nope. Character motivations go against what was established, Jean is a prop and only a prop... There is no story.

Dark Phoenix tells a focused, tragic story about a woman who's an established hero, who has immense power taking control of her via an accident, and learns how to deal with it corrupting her. Corrupting her mind and relationships with friends and family, and we see how they both learn from each other in the end. A hero who has to fight against their darkest nature brought to light. It shows how she evolves into something more and uses a tragedy for redemption and saves the world. Characters respect each other and what's established in previous movies, the story sticks to it's guns and has a meaning to exist. It asks questions, and challenges what we know of X-Men movies. It's messy as hell, and has big ideas with limited execution... but it's all there.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who voted for Last Stand, doesn't actually know what makes a decent, competent movie.

Even though I liked the action in The Last Stand, the train fight in Dark Phoenix is far superior to anything in that film.

 

[ciscostudent561]

Even though I liked the action in The Last Stand, the train fight in Dark Phoenix is far superior to anything in that film.

took the words right out of my mouth.
TLS was really good because they were able to make fights between mutants that unlike most Fox-men films, were competitive, and made both sides look good before getting a victor.

Dark Phoenix is prolly my favorite X-men film and I think objectively is just as good as any of them so you know who gets my vote here

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

There are two questions being asked here, that aren't really the same: which is the better movie, and which is a better adaptation of the Dark Phoenix story. I would say that The Last Stand is inarguably a better movie, filled as it is with characters you can actually care about and plot beats that largely make sense. However, its really not a Dark Phoenix story, primarily, but a Mutant Cure storyline with Dark Phoenix awkwardly affixed as the B-plot. DP might be a marginally better adaptation, though, simply for dedicating the whole movie to that as the plot.

I haven't seen Dark Phoenix so I can't vote for what was better, but I've long agreed with these views on TLS. Don't get me wrong. TLS has a lot of problems. I wouldn't even call it good. But I don't think it is anywhere near as bad as the fanbase says it is. The Cure plot, as you said, largely works and there are a lot of good moments in it. But fans didn't want The Cure, they wanted The Dark Phoenix, which is a complete afterthought in TLS. It is why you see film critics and general audiences respond more with an attitude of "it was okay or mediocre" while X-Men fans tear it to shreds to this day. Fans tend to HATE it when they think they are getting one thing and get something else instead (see also Iron Man 3).

 

[henzINNIT]

Characters respect each other and what's established in previous movies, the story sticks to it's guns and has a meaning to exist. It asks questions, and challenges what we know of X-Men movies. It's messy as hell, and has big ideas with limited execution... but it's all there.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who voted for Last Stand, doesn't actually know what makes a decent, competent movie.

The plot of this film retcons the end of the last one, completely ignoring Jean's phoenix moment in Egypt. It also contorts into blaming Xavier for Jean's condition when it was clearly an external force that she came in contact with. It's not even clear what Charles is supposed to have done this time, other than lie about her father. The film does a better job at handling Jean, but only barely. It pretty much comes down to her making the choice to end her life (destroying the villain) instead of asking to be killed. Outside of that, it plays out the same "Carrie" beats as before. That's not a tremendous result considering the whole film is dedicated to the plot this time. Besides Jean, pretty much everyone else is botched.

 

[Hand Banana]

The plot of this film retcons the end of the last one, completely ignoring Jean's phoenix moment in Egypt. It also contorts into blaming Xavier for Jean's condition when it was clearly an external force that she came in contact with. It's not even clear what Charles is supposed to have done this time, other than lie about her father. The film does a better job at handling Jean, but only barely. It pretty much comes down to her making the choice to end her life (destroying the villain) instead of asking to be killed. Outside of that, it plays out the same "Carrie" beats as before. That's not a tremendous result considering the whole film is dedicated to the plot this time. Besides Jean, pretty much everyone else is botched.

It really doesn’t since it was explicitly stated to be Jean’s mutant power unleashed.

They were blaming Charles for planting the seeds of rage in Jean. He also lied about Jean killing her mom.