Dark Phoenix Dark Phoenix vs The Last Stand

[carpenter82]

took the words right out of my mouth.
TLS was really good because they were able to make fights between mutants that unlike most Fox-men films, were competitive, and made both sides look good before getting a victor.

Dark Phoenix is prolly my favorite X-men film and I think objectively is just as good as any of them so you know who gets my vote here

Favorite? That's high praise, I'm glad it worked that well for you. I'd put it right under First Class personally.

 

[Frankeh]

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who voted for Last Stand, doesn't actually know what makes a decent, competent movie.

This is rich coming from someone who is praising a movie which is widely agreed to be bad.

 

[Frankeh]

Sorry, I'm less concerned about defending DP here than I am at making sure nostalgia-goggles doesn't lead to some twisted revisionism that pretends The Last Stand is anything less than abhorrent.

The idea that The Last Stand is abhorrent is as much of a fanboy overreaction as the nostalgia goggled revisionism you're talking about.

 

[Mad Ones]

The Last Stand is honestly one of the most sexist superhero movies.

Dark Phoenix isn't as sexist. But ooooh man does it have a ton of other problems.

 

[henzINNIT]

There should really be a "Both suck" option. Having voted for TLS, I'm having some remorse. It is choosing between a *****e and a turd.

 

[Blade Hoarder]

As a Phoenix movie Dark Phoenix is better. Last Stand barely dealt with Dark Phoenix. But as a movie movie, the Last Stand actually has, you know, character arcs and stuff.

They are thin, but at least they are trying. In this movie almost everybody other than Jean are ciphers. And those that are not have laughable characterizations. Like Charles, Beast and Eric.

This movie, Dark Phoenix, is disfunctional at a basic dramatic level. Worse than the Last Stand.

 

[DACrowe]

The idea that The Last Stand is abhorrent is as much of a fanboy overreaction as the nostalgia goggled revisionism you're talking about.

It was so bad they had to literally either reboot or go back in time 50 years and then use time travel to undo the mess it made. It really did derail the whole series. It additionally had lousy action, looked cheap even though it was expensive, disserviced all of the characters except Wolverine (to the point of assassination for Cyclops and Rogue), and had a seedy undertone of misogyny.

Yeah, I do think it is abhorrent.

 

[Frankeh]

It was so bad they had to literally either reboot or go back in time 50 years and then use time travel to undo the mess it made. It really did derail the whole series. It additionally had lousy action, looked cheap even though it was expensive, disserviced all of the characters except Wolverine (to the point of assassination for Cyclops and Rogue), and had a seedy undertone of misogyny.

Yeah, I do think it is abhorrent.

There is no actual proof that they went to prequels because TLS was "so bad".

And if it was so abhorrent, why didn't people and critics at large reject it like they did with Fant4stic, Catwoman, Batman & Robin, etc?

To you it may be trash, but if you're gonna start coming for other people for having nostalgia goggles, or even worse like TWayneP acting like an authority on what makes a competent movie, then yeah, let's call a spade a spade and not rewrite history. It was better received than Apocalypse and Dark Phoenix.

 

[psylockolussus]

There is no actual proof that they went to prequels because TLS was "so bad".

And if it was so abhorrent, why didn't people and critics at large reject it like they did with Fant4stic, Catwoman, Batman & Robin, etc?

To you it may be trash, but if you're gonna start coming for other people for having nostalgia goggles, or even worse like TWayneP acting like an authority on what makes a competent movie, then yeah, let's call a spade a spade and not rewrite history. It was better received than Apocalypse and Dark Phoenix.

Again 23% vs 57%... lets bring up the Cinemascore ratings as well.

 

[DACrowe]

There is no actual proof that they went to prequels because TLS was "so bad".

And if it was so abhorrent, why didn't people and critics at large reject it like they did with Fant4stic, Catwoman, Batman & Robin, etc?

To you it may be trash, but if you're gonna start coming for other people for having nostalgia goggles, or even worse like TWayneP acting like an authority on what makes a competent movie, then yeah, let's call a spade a spade and not rewrite history. It was better received than Apocalypse and Dark Phoenix.

It's in the 50s on RT. While higher than Dark Phoenix, it wasn't exactly beloved by its critical reception. I think the fact is it came off a better movie (X2 is one of the best in the franchise, Apocalypse is one of the worst) and people had goodwill for it. Audience expectation from the genre was also much lower before TDK, TDKR, and the MCU. Even Logan and Deadpool are part of raising the overall standards.

But yes, it did derail the franchise, that is why they went back in time. The "mainline" was in tatters. It's why Vaughn and Singer both saw that it was necessary to have a clean slate, and it's why First Class and DOFP were so far better received than TLS--although Vaughn would've elected to just never go back to that continuity in a major way until the "end" of a trilogy like Singer did. Still, those movies shook off the ashes of that mess and created something new and appealing. Sadly it didn't last.

Look at it this way, no one really seemed to care what happened to the X-Men after TLS. After DoFP many folks were begging for a proper X4 now that it "fixed" the timeline. Maybe in retrospect we should've gotten it? Though I personally think the FC era could've worked with better scripts, direction, and less time-jumping. C'est la vie.

 

[Mad Ones]

The contexts between the two films are too different to just compare rotten tomato scores. I personally agree with DACrowe about TLS being a travesty. Never before have I felt the rug get pulled from underneath a superhero franchise like that movie.

 

[MovieSlave]

Going with Dark Phoenix. I think The Last Stand is a better made film, or made more competently but overall I enjoyed DP. The Last Stand was such a huge disappointment for me. A few cool scenes but overall I thought it was fairly bad. DP isn't that good of a film either but for some reason I have to give it the edge.

 

[Lip]

Honestly, I don't think they had to go back in time necessarily after TLS. If I remember correctly, LSD (or someone else) said they wanted to do DoFP after X3. And, IMO, they could have. And with the exact same results: cleaning the timeline and bringing back Jean and Scott.

They still had Jackman's fan favorite Wolverine, Berry's Storm and Page's Kitty to lead the story. Also a cast of characters that could have Bobby, Colossus, Hank, Kurt, Warren and Rogue. Maybe even introduce other fan favorite like Gambit or a proper Jubilee or Betsy.

I mean, it could've been great.

 

[EnDz0n3]

It was so bad they had to literally either reboot or go back in time 50 years and then use time travel to undo the mess it made. It really did derail the whole series. It additionally had lousy action, looked cheap even though it was expensive, disserviced all of the characters except Wolverine (to the point of assassination for Cyclops and Rogue), and had a seedy undertone of misogyny.

Yeah, I do think it is abhorrent.

And you think if Fox wasn't still a thing now, they would make another X-men movie in 2 years' time after the mess Dark Phoenix left? Put down your nostalgia glasses, the movie only came out 3 days ago.

 

[Frankeh]

It's in the 50s on RT. While higher than Dark Phoenix, it wasn't exactly beloved by its critical reception. I think the fact is it came off a better movie (X2 is one of the best in the franchise, Apocalypse is one of the worst) and people had goodwill for it. Audience expectation from the genre was also much lower before TDK, TDKR, and the MCU. Even Logan and Deadpool are part of raising the overall standards.

This still doesn't really prove me wrong, though. TLS was never considered an irredeemable movie in the way Fant4stic and Catwoman are, so you can't really accuse people voting for it of having nostalgia goggles or being incapable of telling what is a competent movie (in the case of TWayneP).

Even if you say it's a different landscape (which is the same excuse used for Apocalypse), is that supposed to work in favor of Dark Phoenix? Because by all accounts the writing is still bad, so it's not like if it came out earlier it would be looked at more favourably. And even so, it would make Dark Phoenix look like an already dated movie that should've come out in 2000s, which also doesn't really help it.

I think at the end of the day, Simon Kinberg's writing is trash no matter what era you put it in, no matter how many chances audiences give him.

 

[Lip]

I've been thinking a lot about this, actually. The answer for me is easy: I prefer TLS. But not quite easy to understand and explain why.

I think there are a lot of things to consider. First of all, the cast. I was way more invested in that cast of characters than I ever was with the FC characters. And wanting or not, that already has an impact. While this is not by any means Ratner's merits, it certainly is the cast's. And they were also part of the movie. It's their work too.

People talk so much about the talent of the FC cast, which they certainly have, but McAvoy, Fassbender and Lawrence's massive popularity doesn't McKellen, Stewart, Paquin, Page, Jackman, Berry, Janssen or Marsden less talented. Actually, I think the OT has a better, more balanced cast.

Also, the fact that TLS had a cast of fan favorite characters, strongly connected to the X-Men history, and that have been part of my life since I was 4 years old, wanting or not, has an emotional impact on me too. I'm guilty of that.

TLS is guilty of killing off, in awful ways, huge characters like Cyclops and Jean Grey. It was outraging. But honestly, as crazy as this might sound, I was more outraged when they killed off Sean and Emma off screen, and when they killed off Alex and Warren in XMA, because it made ir clear that they don't care. That they don't learn. That that's their vision. They turned Dazzler into an extra in this movie. The same way they did it with Jubilee and Besty. Realizing that they'd never change and never learn it's 1000x more frustrating than that first time they killed fan favorites. If the X-Men didn't have a certain future in the MCU, I'd be devasted now.

I mean, they're both awful movies, and I want to make it clear Ratner is disgusting. But I prefer TLS because I had more emotional connection to that cast and that story, and because, believe it or not, I was more entertained by it than Dark Phoenix.

I could elaborate more, but this is what I have right now.

 

[Mad Ones]

Honestly, I still feel a little bit of judgement when I hear someone liking TLS. I would own up to it being a deeply engrained bias from when I was 16, but would definitely be a dealbreaker if my partner liked the film (jk, mostly). Using Jean in every sexist trope to prop up Wolverine just morally outrages me haha.

I definitely don't share those feelings about DP. All the power to the ppl who enjoyed the film - I'm happy for them.

 

[Charzhin0]

First of all, the cast. I was way more invested in that cast of characters than I ever was with the FC characters. And wanting or not, that already has an impact. While this is not by any means Ratner's merits, it certainly is the cast's. And they were also part of the movie. It's their work too.

TLS also introduced fresh new characters accompanied with good casting. Beast and Kitty the obvious examples. Ben Foster as Angel too (although underused).

Dark Phoenix doesnt and this makes the whole movie feel very much "same old same old" with the same characters going through the same arguments. This is compounded with the fact theres no newer mutants with importance enrolled in the cast. Lotus, Selene, Vuk, Dazzler are given less than what Angel in X3, who was at least handed a basic story arc.

 

[Lip]

Honestly, I still feel a little bit of judgement when I hear someone liking TLS.

In my case it isn't "liking" TLS, but just prefering it than Dark Phoenix. And trust me, because of Ratner, it hurts to say this. But I have to be honest, I prefer it. It was because of my emotional connection to the characters, that happened mostly because of the cast and the previous movies. TLS was more engaging to watch, I didn't know what to expect. It made me feel something other than being bored. It had positive surprises like Grammer's Hank and Page's Kitty. It had the cure plot that, despite how it was done, it was the first time I saw a metaphor like that in the X-Men, and it has a personal impact on me. I mean, it isn't a good movie, but I prefer it over DP.

Also, I agree 100% about how sexist they were with the way they treated Jean. And yeah, not having a man to turn her into his pain and make him kill her in the end, is already something. But, how better do you think the portrayal of Jean and the female characters in general were in Dark Phoenix, comparing to TLS? Because for me it's still a man writing for women. And if there's any sign of feminism there, as Kinberg implied multiple times, it's just white feminism. I'm genuinely asking because I do want to learn hearing other voices, and engage. I'm a man after all, I can't trust my judgment.

And for me, the (repeated) mistakes they make it now it's more unforgivable than the ones they made back in 2006. I hate them more for killing Alex and Warren in the just rebooted timeline, than them killing Jean and Scott, bigger characters, in 2006.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

To be fair, I have those sort of issues with the message behind the Dark Phoenix Saga in the comics too.

 

[henzINNIT]

I don't think there's any revisionist issues around TLS. A lot of the sharp edges were softened by DOFP. It's hard to feel as much spite for it after that. I'm not sure I'd go so far to say the film is sexist, only because it butchers male characters just as much as it does female ones. Certainly won't cry foul on anyone heavily criticizes the treatment of the X-Women though. Jean, Rogue, Mystique, Storm... sigh. Victims of scheduling in some cases, but it still hurts. Storm is the most bizarre one for me, just because Berry lobbied for more screen time and somehow ended up with less of a character.

 

[Mad Ones]

In my case it isn't "liking" TLS, but just prefering it than Dark Phoenix. And trust me, because of Ratner, it hurts to say this. But I have to be honest, I prefer it. It was because of my emotional connection to the characters, that happened mostly because of the cast and the previous movies. TLS was more engaging to watch, I didn't know what to expect. It made me feel something other than being bored. It had positive surprises like Grammer's Hank and Page's Kitty. It had the cure plot that, despite how it was done, it was the first time I saw a metaphor like that in the X-Men, and it has a personal impact on me. I mean, it isn't a good movie, but I prefer it over DP.

Also, I agree 100% about how sexist they were with the way they treated Jean. And yeah, not having a man to turn her into his pain and make him kill her in the end, is already something. But, how better do you think the portrayal of Jean and the female characters in general were in Dark Phoenix, comparing to TLS? Because for me it's still a man writing for women. And if there's any sign of feminism there, as Kinberg implied multiple times, it's just white feminism. I'm genuinely asking because I do want to learn hearing other voices, and engage. I'm a man after all, I can't trust my judgment.

And for me, the (repeated) mistakes they make it now it's more unforgivable than the ones they made back in 2006. I hate them more for killing Alex and Warren in the just rebooted timeline, than them killing Jean and Scott, bigger characters, in 2006.

Like I said, I think DP is less sexist, but that doesn't mean it's a beacon of feminism.

The movie is about Jean' agency in a really heavy handed way. Raven and Chastain are (supposed to be) important people to Jean in the film. Raven gets some ok lines critical of Xavier's assimilatory and liberal project. I mean, I think this is all fine. I don't trust Kinberg (or any dude) to write about the gendered and sexual power behind Jean's violation in the Dark Phoenix Saga, so I think it's fine that Kinberg wanted to replace it with Xavier's paternalism and Chastain's whatever (lol). A lot of Jean's story becomes Xavier's story in this film, but it never reaches the toxicity of Wolverine murdering Jean for her own good.

Obviously, the movie does nothing for transwomen, nonbinary people, and women of colour.

 

[By your Command]

Both movies are bad, but TLS has the original cast, so that’s a plus for me, and I have a soft spot for Powell’s score. But this is like a reverse Sophie’s choice where you want both movies to actually not exist.

 

[jolldan]

Hard choice but I would probably go with X3 if you read my review I didn't hate Dark Phoenix just found it very forgettable with little rewatch factor.

 

[harlequinade]

No Famke, no Hugh

This was worse