Dark Phoenix vs The Last Stand

Discussion in 'X-Men: Dark Phoenix' started by Charzhin0, Jun 8, 2019.

?

Which is the better movie

Poll closed Jun 22, 2019.
  1. Dark Phoenix

    24 vote(s)
    44.4%
  2. X-Men 3: The Last Stand

    30 vote(s)
    55.6%
  1. Detective Conan

    Detective Conan Registered

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2017
    Messages:
    3,057
    Likes Received:
    1,682
    Both are pretty piss-poor films but if a gun was held to my head and I was forced to choose then I guess I will barely give the edge to Last Stand since I had more fun watching that than Dark Phoenix where there were parts where I did nearly fall asleep.

    Dark Phoenix attempts to tell the story of the source material to varying results. I feel that in some places things move too fast and not a lot of time is allowed for the viewer to properly digest the events as they occur which makes things feel rather rushed. Dark Phoenix doesn’t tell its own story organically; often times relying on contrived melodrama to hide the fact that it barley has anything going for it in terms of substance. There’s a lot of hollow speechifying about themes that it never really engages with in any meaningful manner. And it’s just hard to muster any type of empathy for this version of Jean since she was just introduced in the last film(where she wasn’t even a focus in it). The film’s biggest downfall is failing to get the audience to care about what Jean is going through

    Last Stand felt more like an actual film even if it was really disjointed, and uneven I still felt the characters came alive more and the spectacle was overall superior. I think the action and direction is overall superior. I have a feeling if the movie didn’t try to awkwardly sandwich the Dark Phoenix saga with Whedon’s “Cure” storyline from his Astonishing X-Men run and solely focused on telling that story then I think Last Stand would’ve ended up being much better received.
     
    #76 Detective Conan, Jun 12, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019
  2. Lip

    Lip Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2015
    Messages:
    3,723
    Likes Received:
    1,409
    Yeah, but even when it comes to Jean's agency, for me, it's still underwhelming. In her first heroic action in the movie, saving the astronaut, the scene seems to suggests that she was insecure, but did it because Charles pushed her. Her last heroic act lacked... everything. She said "emotions make me strong", but that's a character basically defined by her powers. What did we know about Jean, her life and her relationships to feel and understand her decision?

    The few positive interactions she has with a female characters are with Raven. They don't last long and she kills her later. Her talks with Chastain are about... empowerment, I suppose? But Jean's being manipulated and, IMO, too easily. Also, those talks end up involving men or Charles anyway. But I guess it passes the bechdel test?

    I'm not sure if things in the FC timeline improved much over the OT timeline. The treatment of Mystique certainly did. She's now not naked anymore. She has lines, a personality, arcs. She's a full character. But she's constantly being disputed by three men. She, and Jean, were actually used as source of conflicts to cause distrust between men. That doesn't look good for me. Not to mention the old "powerful women go crazy" narrative, that in this case needed a proper treatment.

    I feel like the female characters from OT were better treated than Emma Frost, Kitty Pryde, Storm, Psylocke, Jubilee, Blink, Dazzler and Rogue in the FC timeline. The idea of Logan killing Jean was certainly ****ed up, but I despise the way the killed Emma, Kitty, Storm, Blink and Rogue in DoFP, since they were treated less than human beings.

    I have no intention of making the treatment of Jean in TLS less disturbing, but in general I'm not sure if the treatment of women got better over time. We can argue that they got a little better with Jean and Raven, I guess. But I think it's fair to say this franchise always had a very serious problem with female characters.

    If anything, to me, it's kind of "too little, too late".
     
    #77 Lip, Jun 12, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
    Mad Ones likes this.
  3. The Batman

    The Batman The Dark Knight

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2002
    Messages:
    23,903
    Likes Received:
    456
    I voted DP solely because original cast or not, no one's treatment in DP is as abhorent as how Cyclops was treated in TLS.
     
  4. psylockolussus

    psylockolussus Spice Mutant

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2004
    Messages:
    40,758
    Likes Received:
    1,914
    Dark PhoeniX should have been better by default. X3 was rushed, juggled and shoehorned/introduced way more characters, it was a shorter movie yet X3 ended up being more entertaining, had better action/music/visual effects/casting/acting. It had cringey dialogue but not as the cringey as Dark PhoeniX, a movie that was took itself way too seriously. Also with so many lessons from the previous bad cb films, Dark Phoenix could have learned a lot more but nope. The only real argument that I could agree about Dark PhoeniX is that they focused on the title character more, but if we make a checklist, X3 wins by a large margin, in my opinion.
     
  5. The Infernal

    The Infernal Mky Mk

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    10,163
    Likes Received:
    334
    Dark Pheonix is terrible at pretty much everything it does. At least with X3 there are some bits and pieces I can pick out as a highlight like Kelsey Grammar's beast. I can sit through X3 again if I were doing a marathon of X-men movies.
     
    psylockolussus likes this.
  6. psylockolussus

    psylockolussus Spice Mutant

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2004
    Messages:
    40,758
    Likes Received:
    1,914
    Dark Phoeni also had to reshoot the third act which X3, a rushèd film didn't get to do. Kinberg had the time to polish the film but still couldn't even a better film than X3.
     
  7. Lip

    Lip Registered

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2015
    Messages:
    3,723
    Likes Received:
    1,409
    Dark Phoenix and TLS had also two different purposes and ambitions.

    The creative team, especially more recently, liked to talk those movies in a way that subtly demeaned the "superhero genre" as something "less" and their product something superior.

    Dark Phoenix was supposed to be a "hitchcockian-character-piece-psychological-thriller-drama-genre-revolutionizer".

    TLS got closer to what it was supposed to be.
     
    Hellion and Charzhin0 like this.
  8. halo10

    halo10 Registered

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2012
    Messages:
    231
    Likes Received:
    1
    the dark phoenix character played by Sophia turner easily was much better but it didn't have the xavier vs dark phoenix epic battle that i was so much hoping to see in DP.

    plus wolverine being a lead in it and the oen to end the dark phoenix threat easily surpasses the ending in DP.

    but both have terrible direction and story writes and horrible character development. Last stand great box office opening ran off the great reputation of xmen united and xmen, even the bum bad reviews didn't stop it's record box office opening and overall total

    needless to say, Last Stand will vastly outweigh Dark Phoenix in the long term
     
  9. Hand Banana

    Hand Banana Registered

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2017
    Messages:
    647
    Likes Received:
    207
    I wouldn’t exactly call that a battle.
     
  10. The Original Bamfer

    The Original Bamfer Big, Bald and Beautiful

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2003
    Messages:
    42,665
    Likes Received:
    493
    They’re both so deeply disappointing that I don’t think I can choose.
     
  11. LaughingSnowman

    LaughingSnowman Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2018
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    7
    Last Stand because Famke. I'd could watch her do nothing for 2 hours and be content.
     
  12. The Guard

    The Guard Registered

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2002
    Messages:
    32,996
    Likes Received:
    520
    The real battle in that scene was Logan trying to get into the room.
     
    Milk Tray Guy likes this.
  13. psylockolussus

    psylockolussus Spice Mutant

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2004
    Messages:
    40,758
    Likes Received:
    1,914
    Sheis That fierce!
     
    LaughingSnowman likes this.
  14. Hand Banana

    Hand Banana Registered

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2017
    Messages:
    647
    Likes Received:
    207
    After my second viewing of Dark Phoenix I’m going to have to say its the better movie. It’s far more focus and knows want the story it wants to tell.

    It also has some of the best action in the scenes while the action was pretty weak in this regard.
     
    Milk Tray Guy likes this.
  15. henzINNIT

    henzINNIT Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2009
    Messages:
    3,552
    Likes Received:
    428
    I watched both on the same day (which I do not recommend). The Last Stand certainly feels more like a movie, but it can not be under-stated just how appalling its treatment of Jean is. Its worse than just having her standing around inactive. It's worse than boiling the Phoenix down to a split-personality disorder. I'm sitting there trying to get into Jean's head, and there is nothing going on there. Famke brings all she can to that role but she was given nothing. No goals, no agenda... Jean has no thoughts or feelings about anything.

    I've long thought that Phoenix/Cure could have co-existed with some more time and imagination in the script, still do in fact. But it only just occurred to me that the plots are so badly merged that I couldn't tell you what Jean thinks of the cure. That kinda blew me away in the moment. I thought with 13 years to mull it over I must have had a full understanding of the film's failings.
     
  16. AVEITWITHJAMON

    AVEITWITHJAMON Darksider

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2003
    Messages:
    36,468
    Likes Received:
    597
    I would have to with Dark Phoenix, I have warmed slightly to TLS over the years, but I outright hated its existence for over a decade, and only after the likes of The Wolverine and DOFP gave TLS a better place in the franchise did I start to eventually warm to it.

    I actually enjoyed watching Dark Phoenix and certainly didn’t hate it, I look forward to seeing it again in fact.
     
    Milk Tray Guy likes this.
  17. Charzhin0

    Charzhin0 Registered

    Joined:
    May 19, 2016
    Messages:
    774
    Likes Received:
    385
    The merging of the 2 stories is done okay imo as the basic premise is similar to when Mastermind wants to use Jeans power to make the hellfire club unstoppable. In X3 Magneto pretty much sums it up when he says, ''they have their weapon (the cure), we have ours (Jean). Jean is a silent pawn in both more or less up until she breaks free of Jasons illusions and Magnetos manipulation.

    And I agree with the notion that the cure and dark Phoenix stories are compatible and would have been workable given a better screenwriter and a longer runtime.
     
  18. Hand Banana

    Hand Banana Registered

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2017
    Messages:
    647
    Likes Received:
    207
    I think watching all the Kinberg written X-films(X3, DOFP, XA) before Dark Phoenix. I think it enhances the story a bit because it helps you understand what that movie is going for.
     
  19. Milk Tray Guy

    Milk Tray Guy 70s Man of Action

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2017
    Messages:
    10,912
    Likes Received:
    1,435
    I don't hate The Last Stand and I enjoyed Dark Phoenix. DP for me.
     
  20. henzINNIT

    henzINNIT Registered

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2009
    Messages:
    3,552
    Likes Received:
    428
    I believe it could have worked out pretty well, with Xavier and Magneto battling for Jean's soul with the Cure as the motivating factor, however TLS makes everyone stupider for the sake of plot. Xavier has such limited screen time that we never get to understand the extent of his actions. Jean immediately kills Scott, establishing her as out of control, beyond reasoning and barely a character. Magneto ends up holding the grenade after she kills Xavier, but Mags should know by then that he's got no chance guiding Jean at all. He is told that she is completely unstable and he shrugs it off even after he watched Jean disintegrate his oldest friend. There is no indication what-so-ever that Jean cares about his cause. She even threatens Magneto, with the cure of all things, and he still carries on.

    *sigh*
     
  21. Spider-Fan

    Spider-Fan SHHFFL 2014 Champion

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2003
    Messages:
    54,191
    Likes Received:
    5,821
    After careful consideration, I would say the Dark Phoenix story itself is better in Dark Phoenix. But, as a movie, The Last Stand is better. The Cure subplot trumps anything in DP.
     
    henzINNIT and Charzhin0 like this.

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice
monitoring_string = "afb8e5d7348ab9e99f73cba908f10802"