Dark Reign: Good concept, bad execution

[Sloth7d]

I think the TC means the premise is bad. It's a good idea, but the set up is questionable and forces you to completely discard your disbelief.

 

[sdc10]

I like the way Osborne got to power, i think it makes total since. Osborne was a hero, the public at large love heroes. So its not unbelievable to me that they support him. I also liked how Osborne turned the events to suit his own goals just as a villain does.

 

[The Overlord]

Bad example, OJ also doesnt have any experience, where Gobby was part of the CSA and was quite successful there. I think you underestimate the power of fear. If President Bush killed bin Laden on national tv weeks after 9/11 I think we'd be looking at a much different popularity than we are now. It was a gut reaction to a tragic event which I am sure isnt going to go over as smoothly as everyone is implying, like the entire country is just blindly following Osborn like a bunch of zombies. He wasnt exactly voted into position, he was appointed.

Bush wasn't a known criminal and murderer when he ran for office, so your comparison is flawed. With his background, he shouldn't have gotten his position at CSA in the first place. What is the government in Marvel completely insane or something, in real life a known psychotic murderer would never be given that kinda of position.

But do people actually know he was Green Goblin. I was under the impression that all of that was swept under the rug by SHIELD.

How did they do that, he was unmasked on National TV, where he threatened to kill 18 people, how do you cover that up?

 

[sdc10]

Bush wasn't a known criminal and murderer when he ran for office, so your comparison is flawed. With his background, he shouldn't have gotten his position at CSA in the first place. What is the government in Marvel completely insane or something, in real life a known psychotic murderer would never be given that kinda of position.



How did they do that, he was unmasked on National TV, where he threatened to kill 18 people, how do you cover that up?

Well they probably thought he was rehabilitated or at least in a position where he could be controlled thats why he was put in charge of the Thunderbolts in the first place.

 

[The Overlord]

Well they probably thought he was rehabilitated or at least in a position where he could be controlled thats why he was put in charge of the Thunderbolts in the first place.

Well they are really dumb aren't they, is it a surprise that as soon as Norm got this position, he started to gather other villains and started hatching evil plots? I come on, if they didn't see that coming, they are too stupid to live.

 

[random_havoc]

First populairity does not equal quality.

Second SI also very poorly reviewed by many critics.

So what, if OJ Simpson shot Osama bin Laden on national TV, we wouldn't give him federal authority. Gobby was caught on camera threatenng to kill 18 people if Spidey didn't gut himself before he got arrested, that's the kind thing that would be all over youtube and discussed by pundits, no matter of spin would make it go away.

EXACTLY.

First, things obviously happened for Dark Reign, so anyone that says things haven't needs a brain. If plot has taken place it can be reviewed and criticized as good or terrible.

Second, you're right, he's a blatant convicted murdering who has flown around with a ******ed mask on trying to murder even more. I don't care if he hung bin laden up by his testicles and shot him in the face, there's no way the american public would stand for allowing a known psychopath/multiple murderer to have the kind of power Osborn has.

And it's not even like he did anything special. A few DOZEN people were rushing for the queen, but since he happened to pull a trigger before those other dozens could kill her that makes him something special????

 

[random_havoc]

Bush wasn't a known criminal and murderer when he ran for office, so your comparison is flawed. With his background, he shouldn't have gotten his position at CSA in the first place. What is the government in Marvel completely insane or something, in real life a known psychotic murderer would never be given that kinda of position.



How did they do that, he was unmasked on National TV, where he threatened to kill 18 people, how do you cover that up?

Good points all. The title of this thread is dead on. And that, along with the general horrendousness of SI and it's MA and NA tie-in issues (filler issues all) are why I'm now officially done collecting NA, MA, and any other "event" stories. My comic collecting numbers are going way down. I don't even remember the last NA issue that actually felt like it had a real start, finish and end without tying into something else.

Ticks me off though, cuz I've got every ish and almost every variant cover for Avengers since disassembled. Too bad that the Avengers aren't worthy of their own stories any more, just worthy of beings ****es to sell whatever "big event" is on this week.

 

[sdc10]

Ever think that sometimes you may be just taking this stuff too seriously? I mean its a comic book their supposed to be read for enjoyment and entertainment. I for one don't want my comics to be "realistic", it goes against what they should be. I don't wanna open up a comic and be reminded of all the crap that goes on in the real world.

 

[storyteller]

1st and foremost. Osbourn is a respected businessman.
2nd his green goblin days have been swept under the rug. Officially green goblin is not presently or ever was the green goblin. Those who know the truth are criminals(who arent going to say a thing).
It was Normans thunderbolt who didnt go to hell in the media over civil war and the subsequent events.
Tony Starks reputation was dragged through the mud while Osbourne was going up
He saves the capital and does an awesome speech(the avengers are busy in the savage land)
He performs the money shot by taking out the queen(with Iron man running away a few minutes before)
In the aftermath, those who hated Tony in the position as head looked to Norman. Norman knows how to spin and he spun well.

The execution was fine.

 

[cdk]

I have no problem with the green goblin being a more prominent villain, to me he was always marvels #1 hero's #1 Villain (before wolverine mania)

 

[random_havoc]

Ever think that sometimes you may be just taking this stuff too seriously? I mean its a comic book their supposed to be read for enjoyment and entertainment. I for one don't want my comics to be "realistic", it goes against what they should be. I don't wanna open up a comic and be reminded of all the crap that goes on in the real world.

There's a difference between demanding that they be realistic in the sense of the real world, and being reasonable in plot, story progression, and logic. One means that superheroes couldn't exist in comics, cuz it's not realistic. The other means that professor X can't suddenly turn into a purple elephant with the power of the infinity gauntlet. There needs to be reasonable progression from point A to point B with people reacting in at least a mostly realistic, and consistent, manner.

 

[fifthfiend]

And it's not even like he did anything special. A few DOZEN people were rushing for the queen, but since he happened to pull a trigger before those other dozens could kill her that makes him something special????

That part I actually don't have a problem with. Humanity has been all about ******edly arbitrary hero worship since time immemorial.

 

[The Overlord]

1st and foremost. Osbourn is a respected businessman.
2nd his green goblin days have been swept under the rug. Officially green goblin is not presently or ever was the green goblin. Those who know the truth are criminals(who arent going to say a thing).
It was Normans thunderbolt who didnt go to hell in the media over civil war and the subsequent events.
Tony Starks reputation was dragged through the mud while Osbourne was going up
He saves the capital and does an awesome speech(the avengers are busy in the savage land)
He performs the money shot by taking out the queen(with Iron man running away a few minutes before)
In the aftermath, those who hated Tony in the position as head looked to Norman. Norman knows how to spin and he spun well.

The execution was fine.

That's not corr3ect, he threatened to kill 18 people and was unmasked on national TV, how was that swept under the rug?

 

[random_havoc]

That's not corr3ect, he threatened to kill 18 people and was unmasked on national TV, how was that swept under the rug?

I second this question

 

[sdc10]

I don't think it has been swept under the rug just for the fact that it was Doc Samson that was showing the video in the preview. Most people felt that Norman was cured of the "Green Goblin" persona. Being a psychiatrist Samson was probably brought in to keep an eye on Osbourne.

 

[The Question]

He was unmasked on live TV years before he started working for the CSA. No way that could have been swept under the rug. And when you have a man who kidnapped and threatened to kill 18 people, bombed a major newspaper in New York, and murdered the daughter of a New York City Police chief, not to mention someone who's mental health status as a delusional and paranoid psychotic with a tendency towards having a god complex and who regularly experienced auditory and visual hallucinations is well documented...I'm sorry, don't care if he goes back in time and kills Hitler, that man does not get a cushy government job and the amount of power Osborn has gained so easily.

 

[random_havoc]

He was unmasked on live TV years before he started working for the CSA. No way that could have been swept under the rug. And when you have a man who kidnapped and threatened to kill 18 people, bombed a major newspaper in New York, and murdered the daughter of a New York City Police chief, not to mention someone who's mental health status as a delusional and paranoid psychotic with a tendency towards having a god complex and who regularly experienced auditory and visual hallucinations is well documented...I'm sorry, don't care if he goes back in time and kills Hitler, that man does not get a cushy government job and the amount of power Osborn has gained so easily.

AMEN!!!
My thoughts EXACTLY!

 

[sdc10]

He was unmasked on live TV years before he started working for the CSA. No way that could have been swept under the rug. And when you have a man who kidnapped and threatened to kill 18 people, bombed a major newspaper in New York, and murdered the daughter of a New York City Police chief, not to mention someone who's mental health status as a delusional and paranoid psychotic with a tendency towards having a god complex and who regularly experienced auditory and visual hallucinations is well documented...I'm sorry, don't care if he goes back in time and kills Hitler, that man does not get a cushy government job and the amount of power Osborn has gained so easily.

Ya but you are enjoying a form of entertainment where you believe its perfectly acceptable for people to fly, and for gods to walk the earth. But you have a problem where a man gets a new position? You have to have some suspension of belief when reading these things. Its not like there gonna have 10 issues dedicated to all the little intricate ways Osbourne rose to power.

 

[random_havoc]

Ya but you are enjoying a form of entertainment where you believe its perfectly acceptable for people to fly, and for gods to walk the earth. But you have a problem where a man gets a new position? You have to have some suspension of belief when reading these things. Its not like there gonna have 10 issues dedicated to all the little intricate ways Osbourne rose to power.

It's reasoning like this that explains why Loeb is still employed. SOME suspension of disbelief and accepting whatever inexplicable trash they shovel your way are too VERY different things. Do you also defend the SS and BP armbar incident? Or Rulk using Thor's own hammer on him? Or Spider-Man beating Firelord? At exactly WHAT POINT do we get to say, "Hey, this is bullcrap! This writing doesn't make sense!"? I ask, because apparently saying it about a known delusional psychopathic murdering megalomaniac getting into massive political power isn't bad enough to do so.

 

[Mr. Green]

First populairity does not equal quality.

I guess people like it because it's bad then.

Second SI also very poorly reviewed by many critics.

Well, I'm convinced. SI was bad. I no longer like it.

There sop many forced plot points in these events, all these villains working for Hood and merely defering him, Norman getting this position, Namor using Bendis speak, etc.

So what you're saying is, superhero comics just aren't realistic enough for you these days. Riiiiiiiight.

 

[sdc10]

It's reasoning like this that explains why Loeb is still employed. SOME suspension of disbelief and accepting whatever inexplicable trash they shovel your way are too VERY different things. Do you also defend the SS and BP armbar incident? Or Rulk using Thor's own hammer on him? Or Spider-Man beating Firelord? At exactly WHAT POINT do we get to say, "Hey, this is bullcrap! This writing doesn't make sense!"? I ask, because apparently saying it about a known delusional psychopathic murdering megalomaniac getting into massive political power isn't bad enough to do so.

Hitler was pretty easily able to do it in real life, so no that Osbourne stuff isn't really unbelievable to me. BTW no one is forcing you to read the stuff, either read it or don't.

 

[StreetWarrior]

I guess people like it because it's bad then.

Well, I'm convinced. SI was bad. I no longer like it.

So what you're saying is, superhero comics just aren't realistic enough for you these days. Riiiiiiiight.

Wait! Didn't you just attack Miller in the Must-Have issues thread? But, Miller is extremely popular. Well that's strange. Miller must be really good then. You know, because a lot of people like him. Because popularity equals quality.

Common Sense 101: Popular DOES NOT equal good. Want examples? Nickleback, Boy bands, High School Musical, various presidential choices, the Hills, etc. In fact, the vast majority of things that are popular are those that lack creativity, quality, and general thought. Popular culture is unable to comprehend anything of actual substance. That's why "Soulja Boy" was number one on MTV, Titanic won an academy award, and Paris Hilton graces all the magazine covers. Also: Hitler was VERY popular in Germany.

God! I'm not a Bendis lover or hater, but this "fanboyism" is nauseating. I appreciate your opinion and respect your firm stance. We know you liked Secret Invasion. We. Get. it. Okay?

Just as you're not changing your mind on it because of poor critic reviews, no one on the Hype is going to magically fall in love with Bendis' writing because you keep screaming about how good and popular it is. As much as I hate opinions (because they can be wrong), this is an opinion matter. And you're entitled to your opinion. I don't have to like it and I don't have to agree (Not saying that I'm doing either). Different strokes/expectations, I guess.

 

[The Question]

Ya but you are enjoying a form of entertainment where you believe its perfectly acceptable for people to fly, and for gods to walk the earth. But you have a problem where a man gets a new position? You have to have some suspension of belief when reading these things. Its not like there gonna have 10 issues dedicated to all the little intricate ways Osbourne rose to power.

But the thing is, they actually should. Because otherwise he's in power and it makes no sense. People flying makes sense because it follows the internal rules of the fiction. Unless they give some explanation, Osborn's rise to power follows no form of logic, internal or otherwise. He went from despised and criminally insane outlaw to the boss of every super hero in America. There was no logical progression of events. Nothing came about organically. They just had everyone conveniently forget that this is a man who, up until recently, considered dressing up as a mythical creature and throwing grenades around while declaring himself the god-king of New York's criminal underworld to be recreational activities.

Hitler was pretty easily able to do it in real life, so no that Osbourne stuff isn't really unbelievable to me. BTW no one is forcing you to read the stuff, either read it or don't.

Hitler was a respected politician and political theorist in a country on the verge of economic collapse that had no real sense of direction or leadership. His promise of a strong, united Germany and his willingness to do anything to achieve that won over a people who were desperate and scared and constantly being stepped on by people in power. He didn't commit any of the atrocities he's known for today until after he rose to power, and with the exception of a very short and failed attempted uprising against a government that the vast majority of Germans were dissatisfied with, his criminal record was clean. Osborn murdered the daughter of a New York City police chief. It was caught on tape. As was him laughing about it like it was all in good sport. The vast majority of Americans would not, sensibly, stand behind that man.

 

[sdc10]

But in the view of the majority of most people it is not the green goblin in charge, its Norman Osbourne. People learned to trust him when he was first appointed in charge of the Thunderbolts. They viewed them as the good guys hunting down the bad guys. The icing on the cake was being the hero who saved them from invasion.

 

[The Question]

But in the view of the majority of most people it is not the green goblin in charge, its Norman Osbourne. People learned to trust him when he was first appointed in charge of the Thunderbolts. They viewed them as the good guys hunting down the bad guys. The icing on the cake was being the hero who saved them from invasion.

Yes, but here's the thing: Norman Osborn IS the Green Goblin. He's someone who, a very short time ago, was taking people hostage in New York and talking to his own reflection. Even if they buy that he's gone straight this kind of trust has been built up far too quickly for it to be anything but unrealistically naive. Yes, he stopped the invaders. He had something to gain from that. It wasn't purely altruistic. And it wasn't proof that he is no longer evil, not that he is mentally competent enough to hold such a high government office, which, in my mind, is the more important issue. Even if he honestly was remorseful, he's still crazy as **** and shouldn't be heading up every super hero on the planet. This isn't Hitler rising to power. This isn't even comparable to Bush. This is if Ted Bundy saved a bunch of lives during the war, the war was a huge cluster **** so we fired the secretary of defense, so we decide to reward Bundy by giving him the job, completely neglecting the fact that not only is Bundy an evil ****, he's far too warped to do the job well.