Dark Reign: Good concept, bad execution

[bryanss3]

Is anyone excited for the Dark Reign logo to appear at the tops of comics that aren't really essential to dark reign.

 

[sdc10]

Is anyone excited for the Dark Reign logo to appear at the tops of comics that aren't really essential to dark reign.

Isn't that true for all tie-ins though? Not all of them are essential to the main story.

 

[fifthfiend]

So what you're saying is, superhero comics just aren't realistic enough for you these days. Riiiiiiiight.

And Greensie was calling me a troll like half a dozen posts ago.

The irony, it burns!t:

 

[The Overlord]

I guess people like it because it's bad then.

So you are saying that because it was popular, it was good? The Resident Evil movies were popular, but they suck.

Well, I'm convinced. SI was bad. I no longer like it.

I don't care if you like it, its still crap. Its still poorly written, its still convoluted, do you want to name the major writing flaws in this book?

So what you're saying is, superhero comics just aren't realistic enough for you these days. Riiiiiiiight.

Norm getting this position wasn't realistic at all,m it only works if everyone in the Marvel universe is a drooling moron.

 

[bryanss3]

Isn't that true for all tie-ins though? Not all of them are essential to the main story.

Its just kind of annoying

 

[Mr. Green]

So you are saying that because it was popular, it was good? The Resident Evil movies were popular, but they suck.

No. I'm saying it was popular because it was good. Who cares about the Resident Evil movies.

I don't care if you like it, its still crap. Its still poorly written, its still convoluted, do you want to name the major writing flaws in this book?

I don't need you to list anything because I like Bendis' work. Whatever you see as flaws obviously don't bother me.

Norm getting this position wasn't realistic at all,m it only works if everyone in the Marvel universe is a drooling moron.

Did you read T-bolts? Because Osborne and the T-bolts were looked at as heroes. It showed the media praising them and everything. I don't see it as being too much of a stretch.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

EXACTLY.

First, things obviously happened for Dark Reign, so anyone that says things haven't needs a brain. If plot has taken place it can be reviewed and criticized as good or terrible.

Second, you're right, he's a blatant convicted murdering who has flown around with a ******ed mask on trying to murder even more. I don't care if he hung bin laden up by his testicles and shot him in the face, there's no way the american public would stand for allowing a known psychopath/multiple murderer to have the kind of power Osborn has.

And it's not even like he did anything special. A few DOZEN people were rushing for the queen, but since he happened to pull a trigger before those other dozens could kill her that makes him something special????

Unfortunately, you can't apply this logic to comic books. Magneto once threatened to nuke most of the East Coast, and then happily led the X-Men from their Institute in upstate New York, then went back to killing people. Fact is these characters will always be on a rise and a fall, and if I'm going to discredit a story that hasn't even started because a murderer has been placed in a high position, well I'm going to have to discredit a whole lot of the MU. Should I write off the entire last twenty years of DareDevil because it's preposterous a person could maintain their law practice while his superhero identity is in dispute? Try to enjoy the story on it's own merits, rather than how it fits into everything else. You'll never be able to read these stories and follow this medium if you can't tolerate how fluid it is.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Yes, but here's the thing: Norman Osborn IS the Green Goblin. He's someone who, a very short time ago, was taking people hostage in New York and talking to his own reflection. Even if they buy that he's gone straight this kind of trust has been built up far too quickly for it to be anything but unrealistically naive. Yes, he stopped the invaders. He had something to gain from that. It wasn't purely altruistic. And it wasn't proof that he is no longer evil, not that he is mentally competent enough to hold such a high government office, which, in my mind, is the more important issue. Even if he honestly was remorseful, he's still crazy as **** and shouldn't be heading up every super hero on the planet. This isn't Hitler rising to power. This isn't even comparable to Bush. This is if Ted Bundy saved a bunch of lives during the war, the war was a huge cluster **** so we fired the secretary of defense, so we decide to reward Bundy by giving him the job, completely neglecting the fact that not only is Bundy an evil ****, he's far too warped to do the job well.

To be fair we have a seated Senator who is deeply respected by his party that murdered a woman.

 

[The Question]

To be fair we have a seated Senator who is deeply respected by his party that murdered a woman.

Are you talking about Kennedy? Because being a ****** driver and trying to get away with it and intentionally murdering the daughter of a New York City police officer and laughing about on TV are two different things.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Are you talking about Kennedy? Because being a ****** driver and trying to get away with it and intentionally murdering the daughter of a New York City police officer and laughing about on TV are two different things.

Yeah, no, being a sh---y driver was the excuse, not the reality. That was him trying to cover up a very damaging affair.

I guess you could address my other point though, do you care that no legal review board would reinstate the law license of someone suspected of being a superhero? Or how about a college that happily employs a serial killing Lizard? I could just bring up the President Luthor saga too.

 

[The Question]

Yeah, no, being a sh---y driver was the excuse, not the reality. That was him trying to cover up a very damaging affair.

I've never heard anything about that before.

I guess you could address my other point though, do you care that no legal review board would reinstate the law license of someone suspected of being a superhero? Or how about a college that happily employs a serial killing Lizard? I could just bring up the President Luthor saga too.

Daredevil: I really don't know.

The Lizard: I was under the impression that no one knew that Connors was The Lizard.

Luthor: Luthor never had anything against him even remotely as damning as what Osborn has against him, and before he was president was, at most, suspected to be connected to crimes, which can be dealt with in a political arena much more easily than having been convicted of mass murder and deemed clinically insane.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

I've never heard anything about that before.

Drove his car off a bridge, and he managed to swim to safety, and then never reported the accident until his car was discovered by police. He pleaded guilty to accident and was sentenced, although his sentence was suspended. Yeah -- he meant to drive off that bridge and everyone in Boston knows it.

 

[The Question]

Drove his car off a bridge, and he managed to swim to safety, and then never reported the accident until his car was discovered by police. He pleaded guilty to accident and was sentenced, although his sentence was suspended. Yeah -- he meant to drive off that bridge and everyone in Boston knows it.

Well, I know the details of what happened, but what evidence is there that they had an affair? That's what I'd never heard about before.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Daredevil: I really don't know.

Well Matt Murdock has been disputing that identity of his since the sixties, even created a "twin brother" (him) named Michael (his middle name) Murdock (who was sighted but constantly wore sunglasses and a leisure suit for some reason) to take the fall for him as DareDevil -- and then he claimed his twin brother died and someone else unrelated to him took the mantle...and that's all true, courtesy of Roy Thomas. Now of course in the real world bullying your witnesses into testifying is ground for immediate termination, but for DareDevil, who's identity has been in dispute for quite some time this has never been an issue.

The Lizard: I was under the impression that no one knew that Connors was The Lizard.

In his initial appearance News Papers were already speculating on him being the Lizard. It's very apparently by his second appearance several of his friends and family know, especially his rapidly aging son. Then of course, after his wife's death, he injected his own son with Lizard formula, and they were apprehended then. As of BND, and of course it's hard to know exactly how large of an effect Mephisto had, but he is working with Carlie Cooper.

Luthor: Luthor never had anything against him even remotely as damning as what Osborn has against him, and before he was president was, at most, suspected to be connected to crimes, which can be dealt with in a political arena much more easily than having been convicted of mass murder and deemed clinically insane.

Well I suppose if the average DC voter is stupid enough to buy the "my violent clone did it" explanation, then yes, he did an excellent job of sweeping it under the rug.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Well, I know the details of what happened, but what evidence is there that they had an affair? That's what I'd never heard about before.

Well she was one of the "Boiler Room Girls", who were these campaign workers for her brother, and it's widely assumed the Kennedy's had their way with these girls...although they had their way with most women...that, and, most people think she was a leak.

 

[BrianWilly]

Well I suppose if the average DC voter is stupid enough to buy the "my violent clone did it" explanation, then yes, he did an excellent job of sweeping it under the rug.

Why is it stupid to buy this explanation in a world filled with violent clones who have, in fact, "done it?" You might as well say that Harry Potter is stupid for believing in magic or something.

 

[The Overlord]

Unfortunately, you can't apply this logic to comic books. Magneto once threatened to nuke most of the East Coast, and then happily led the X-Men from their Institute in upstate New York, then went back to killing people. Fact is these characters will always be on a rise and a fall, and if I'm going to discredit a story that hasn't even started because a murderer has been placed in a high position, well I'm going to have to discredit a whole lot of the MU. Should I write off the entire last twenty years of DareDevil because it's preposterous a person could maintain their law practice while his superhero identity is in dispute? Try to enjoy the story on it's own merits, rather than how it fits into everything else. You'll never be able to read these stories and follow this medium if you can't tolerate how fluid it is.

The problem is Norman didn't get this position due to his own cleverness, he got it because everyone in the Marvel Universe is a drooling moron. That isn't impressive on Norman's part, frankly it just lame. Its just bad writing, the whole premise is just weak.

 

[random_havoc]

But in the view of the majority of most people it is not the green goblin in charge, its Norman Osbourne. People learned to trust him when he was first appointed in charge of the Thunderbolts. They viewed them as the good guys hunting down the bad guys. The icing on the cake was being the hero who saved them from invasion.

Wow, do u just want it to be good SO BADLY that you've actually convinced urself?

I'd refute this but The Question already did a fine job of it.

 

[random_havoc]

Unfortunately, you can't apply this logic to comic books. Magneto once threatened to nuke most of the East Coast, and then happily led the X-Men from their Institute in upstate New York, then went back to killing people. Fact is these characters will always be on a rise and a fall, and if I'm going to discredit a story that hasn't even started because a murderer has been placed in a high position, well I'm going to have to discredit a whole lot of the MU. Should I write off the entire last twenty years of DareDevil because it's preposterous a person could maintain their law practice while his superhero identity is in dispute? Try to enjoy the story on it's own merits, rather than how it fits into everything else. You'll never be able to read these stories and follow this medium if you can't tolerate how fluid it is.

Are u trying to defend one piece of crappy plot by citing other crappy plots? Comics supposedly have matured as an art form. How bout we just stop the crappy plots altogether

 

[hippie_hunter]

I feel mixed about Dark Reign already. As a concept I find it to be downright awesome but I think a lot of things should have been differently.

The Cabal shouldn't have Emma Frost who is supposed to be a superhero and clearly isn't the leader nor a spokesperson for the X-Men and mutantkind. With that logic, Cyclops should be in the Cabal, he's the one with the freaking assassination squad for crying out loud. However, Magneto would be a much more logical choice. Norman could offer him his mutant abilities back in return for getting the mutants behind him, not the X-Men who would obviously support the heroes like Spider-Man over him. Also considering that Civil War part deux is pretty much inevitable, it would be rather cool to see Norman/Magneto/the Hood vs. Dr. Doom/Namor/Loki. With the way it's set up, it's downright stupid to have the X-Men take a side in this.

New Avengers is also really stretching out its purpose as a title. At first it served as the continuation of the Avengers, but now that has gone to Mighty Avengers. Then it became the anti-registration team. And now it's the anti-Osborn team. It's getting kinda old that the book is changing its purpose after every event invalidates the previous purpose. I kinda wish that Marvel would just let go of this title and stick with the Slott written Mighty Avengers and the Bendis written Dark Avengers.

And considering that Norman Osborn is in charge, I'd expect that Spider-Man should be taking a larger role in Dark Reign.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Luthor: Luthor never had anything against him even remotely as damning as what Osborn has against him, and before he was president was, at most, suspected to be connected to crimes, which can be dealt with in a political arena much more easily than having been convicted of mass murder and deemed clinically insane.

Not only that but after Batman and Superman essentially deposed him, his reputation is pretty much permanently ruined.

 

[fifthfiend]

IIRC they did handwave some of Lex's bigger/more publicly suspect misdoings as the work of an 'evil clone'. Which actually worked as it technically was a clone just with the actual Luthor's brain inside of it. Hey it was the early 90s, it was a ****ed-up time all around.

Maybe they'll do the same with Norman, though I'd be dicey about it in that as a general rule the last thing you want to let anywhere near the Spider-Man legacy is more ****ing clones.

 

[Anubis]

I believe he was able to get away with a temporary insanity deal. It wasn't Osborn that commited his crimes it was that damn Goblin! The Goblin is the evil one, not Norman. Norman's going to ITT tech. Norman's gonna be a computer programer. Out there workin' for a livin. Gettin' s**t together. It was that f**kin' Goblin that had to go!!!!........................yeah, something like that.

 

[bryanss3]

I feel mixed about Dark Reign already. As a concept I find it to be downright awesome but I think a lot of things should have been differently.

The Cabal shouldn't have Emma Frost who is supposed to be a superhero and clearly isn't the leader nor a spokesperson for the X-Men and mutantkind. With that logic, Cyclops should be in the Cabal, he's the one with the freaking assassination squad for crying out loud. However, Magneto would be a much more logical choice. Norman could offer him his mutant abilities back in return for getting the mutants behind him, not the X-Men who would obviously support the heroes like Spider-Man over him. Also considering that Civil War part deux is pretty much inevitable, it would be rather cool to see Norman/Magneto/the Hood vs. Dr. Doom/Namor/Loki. With the way it's set up, it's downright stupid to have the X-Men take a side in this.

New Avengers is also really stretching out its purpose as a title. At first it served as the continuation of the Avengers, but now that has gone to Mighty Avengers. Then it became the anti-registration team. And now it's the anti-Osborn team. It's getting kinda old that the book is changing its purpose after every event invalidates the previous purpose. I kinda wish that Marvel would just let go of this title and stick with the Slott written Mighty Avengers and the Bendis written Dark Avengers.

And considering that Norman Osborn is in charge, I'd expect that Spider-Man should be taking a larger role in Dark Reign.

how exactly would he get mutants powers back his name isn't Wanda... and Magneto already has a suit that emulates his powers and according to him its equal if not better than before he lost them.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

Why is it stupid to buy this explanation in a world filled with violent clones who have, in fact, "done it?" You might as well say that Harry Potter is stupid for believing in magic or something.

It is still a weak and pathetic explanation that no rational voter would buy? For a second assume violent clones do exist, and a Presidential candidate tried to destroy the world (ya'know, just a couple of times) and then tried to say "oops, violent clone, I was knitting the whole time -- under a giant rock". Wouldn't the voting public kinda...I dunno...demand more? I mean look at this last election where several thousand voters, even after it had been proven otherwise, proudly touted that Barack Obama was in fact an illegal alien with no birth certificate. Admittedly this is a stupid position and probably fueled by racism but it also proves how fickle and stubborn the voting public is, once they make up their mind about a person it's very hard to change it and they will look to anything to justify their position. I suppose you could use this in support of Norman. Norman saves the world when the heroes cannot, therefore even though he is an extreme he seems a much more effective extreme.

As for "violent clone", no you don't have violent clones here, but you do have the Goblin formula, which we all know drives people crazy. Most politicians in this world chock up their bad behavior to drinking and being drunk. This isn't much different. "I was crazy because I was accidentally exposed to crazy potion, killed some dudes girlfriend, and now I've been clean of this crazy homocidial serum and can return to my normal life...I'm the real victim, why would I want to kill a good friend (wink wink) of mine"

There you go, weak ass comic justification.

Are u trying to defend one piece of crappy plot by citing other crappy plots? Comics supposedly have matured as an art form. How bout we just stop the crappy plots altogether

No, you missed the point entirely. Comics have continuity, therefore if you have this policy against going certain places because it doesn't fit neatly into everything else before it then the stories will become stagnant. Most comic book fans seem happy with these middle-of-the-road accomplish nothing stories, hence why a lot of fans are unhappy with Morrison right now, despite the fact that he writes a hell of a Batman story. Norman Osbourne is the only Spider-Villain who hasn't branched out much until recently, the fact that their actually doing something with him is much more important to me than if their story is perfectly sensible considering all the other events. Remember, most readers, actually most geeks, aren't familiar with the whole MU history, hell...I'm more well versed than anyone I know personally. Therefore it's impossible to expect writers to consider all that Norman has done in the past and slavishly explain to you why this story still fits despite those events. Comics have a five or ten year continuity at most. It's not crappy writing, it's just writing. You have to allow these new writers and creators wriggle room in order to do NEW stories.