DC's Illuminati

[gildea]

No the goals of an Illuminati organization is to secretly control the aspects of certain functions of life

no read the mini. It's EXPLICITLY stated.

all they ever say it was meant to be was an information exchange.

Tony wanted more, they said no

Batman's mindwipe is a big explaination for Batman's behavior as a paranoid *****ebag

Not really. His craziness doesn't only extend to heroes.

True, but at least it was written well.

Surely thats a contradiction

But DC has dirtied up thier characters with good storytelling. They did so to protect their loved ones, not themselves and what they stand for.

The reason for the illuminati is to help protect the planet.
Where did u get the "protect themselves" thing from?



I don't really know enough about jean loring to debate about her. (evidently )

 

[Lackey]

superboy prime was always a mad killer was he?

I don't think you've got an argument here with SBP, this is a character that was only used once before. And the IC Secret Files issue explained motive very well.

batman's been written as an insane d**k for a while now something DC have even admitted too.

He's was a dick, not an insane one...and yes, he's been that way FOR A WHILE...it didn't just suddenly happen in one issue. And the way DC is fixing it is gradually, not just writing him out of character in one issue.
Plus, although he may be a dick, he's hasn't done anything ignoble like deceiving one of his friends and sending him out in exile.

and the janette loring thing is a far bigger character shift than reed richards trying to give the hulk somethig he's always wanted (to be left alone).

Not if you know the history of the character.

 

[Wargod]

IMO, In DCU the closest thing that resembles Marvel's Illuminati is The Quintessence.

 

[gildea]

I don't think you've got an argument here with SBP, this is a character that was only used once before. And the IC Secret Files issue explained motive very well.

It's still a million miles away from how he was previously written.

He's was a dick, not an insane one...and yes, he's been that way FOR A WHILE...it didn't just suddenly happen in one issue. And the way DC is fixing it is gradually, not just writing him out of character in one issue.
Plus, although he may be a dick, he's hasn't done anything ignoble like deceiving one of his friends and sending him out in exile.

At one point he resolved to "give up" the identity of Bruce wayne. Seems pretty crazy to me.
He doesn't decieve his friends? Tower of babel, brother eye etc etc. He's done plenty of ignoble things.

Not if you know the history of the character.

I'll cop to that. I don't.



BUT (and I repeat), I am not discussing the QUALITY of DC's writing (despite how my posts sound). I am only saying they ALSO will dirty up their characters if they see fit.

The only quality thing i've really argued (in a quality sense) is people saying the illumanati is out of character, i really don't think it is. All hulk wants is to be left alone after all (and reed has been expressing regrets in FF).

 

[hippie_hunter]

no read the mini. It's EXPLICITLY stated.

all they ever say it was meant to be was an information exchange.

Tony wanted more, they said no

But after events such as launching the Hulk into space, it looks like that Tony has gotten his wish.

Not really. His craziness doesn't only extend to heroes.

Yes it does, Batman wasn't always considered to be a complete *****ebag. The mindwipe was the start of things but his *****ebagginess and paranoia was made worse with events such as the death of Jason Todd, the breaking of his back, the No Man's Land, and being framed for murder.

Surely thats a contradiction

No it isn't. What they did to Lesile was a bastardization of her character, but War Crimes was a rare example of bastardization with good storytelling.

The reason for the illuminati is to help protect the planet.
Where did u get the "protect themselves" thing from?

The point of DC's Power Pact was to protect the family of the Justice League: Alfred Pennyworth, Lesile Thompkins, Jean Lorring, Carrol Ferris, Iris Allen, Sue Dibny, Lois Lane, Perry White, Jimmy Olsen, Mera, and others. They were determined to keep the identies of those who haven't went public so that their families could remain safe. Marvel's Illuminati has characters such as Mr. Fantastic acting out of character by launching the Hulk into space for no reason (at least we could say that Lesile lost it and was completely fed up with Batman, what reason would Reed launch the Hulk into space after the good he has done for the world)

 

[GoldenAgeHero]

superboy prime was always a mad killer was he?

batman's been written as an insane d**k for a while now something DC have even admitted too.

and the janette loring thing is a far bigger character shift than reed richards trying to give the hulk somethig he's always wanted (to be left alone).

no he was'nt. secret files and IC, dirtied him up real good, withgood story telling tho. but i thought it was really mean fo them to turn him into a deranged fool( i dont think he is, he's just lost,confused and manipulated.


no shes not, she had history of mental disorders so her story was executed very well.

 

[GoldenAgeHero]

no read the mini. It's EXPLICITLY stated.

all they ever say it was meant to be was an information exchange.

Tony wanted more, they said no



Not really. His craziness doesn't only extend to heroes.



Surely thats a contradiction



The reason for the illuminati is to help protect the planet.
Where did u get the "protect themselves" thing from?



I don't really know enough about jean loring to debate about her. (evidently )

but reed still agreed with tony on everything else tho. also the whole thing with tony and his opinion felt out of character to me also.

 

[gildea]

But after events such as launching the Hulk into space, it looks like that Tony has gotten his wish.

whats the other events?


As said i don't believe its out of character for reed. Hulk only ever wanted to be left alone.

Yes it does, Batman wasn't always considered to be a complete *****ebag. The mindwipe was the start of things but his *****ebagginess and paranoia was made worse with events such as the death of Jason Todd, the breaking of his back, the No Man's Land, and being framed for murder.

No it doesn't. Joker = villain. Batman tried to kill him in hush.

and thats kinda my point ( batman wasn't always a complete *****ebag but dc has dirtied him up.

as said the my only true point is in direct response to corpulents that dc DOES dirty up it's characters. I AM NOT TRULY ARGUING THE JUSTIFICATION!!!

 

[Anubis]

I'm gonna go ahead and agree with Gildea here. He's right. DC has done pretty much the same thing. And the Illuminati were originally brought together to exchange ideas and solve problems. And it got terribly out of hand. Much like the Power Pact of Identity Crisis who originally got together to cover the hero's asses should villains find out they're secrets. Both perfectly understandable. Both went terribly wrong.

He's also right about a number of characters becoming deceptive and even evil in some cases. Alex Luthor and Superboy Prime are one example. You got Batman. There are a few Barry Allen fans that would never understand his voting for the mind f**k of Dr. Light, as well as doing what he did to the Top. Doesn't matter if you enjoyed it, fact is, it's the same thing thats going on at Marvel in a way.

As far as the Illuminati, I also don't see how they've done anything wrong up to this point. I do agree with Black Panthers assement (in the Illuminati special.) that they never should have gotten involved in the first place because of what would happen. But, for years they met, exchanged info, and were pretty much on the up and up. That is until they made the decision to launch Hulk into space. Which, I can kinda understand. The guys a freakin monster. Shoulda done it a long time ago. Does that make them evil? No. But did they have the right? Theres the question. It shows that they have decided to make decisions that, quite frankly shouldn't be theres to make. Like BP said, you just decide that you are the only people worthy to make decisions for the good of the world? Where do you get off? Personally, I'm looking forward to this mini. I wasn't gonna get it, but it is interesting. And does in fact remind me of the events of Identity Crisis. Heros makeing decisions on their own that no man has a right to make.

 

[XwolverineX]

Batman
Mr. Terrific
Aquaman
Zauriel
Martian Manhunter
Alan Scott

 

[Lackey]

It's still a million miles away from how he was previously written.

Same as the origin of most villains who start off with good intentions in one issue, something tragic and life changing happens and then they switch sides... we see this time and time again in comics. Except with SPB, it happened over many, many years. That's the thing I think you're not seeing... we saw him only once before, then many years later, he's changed. It didn't happen instantly from one day to the next.

At one point he resolved to "give up" the identity of Bruce wayne. Seems pretty crazy to me.

Well, it's not crazy when Bruce Wayne is wanted for murder... how do you expect him to go around being Bruce Wayne, a man wanted for murder who has escaped from prison? C'mon.

He doesn't decieve his friends? Tower of babel, brother eye etc etc. He's done plenty of ignoble things.

That's not deception, and definitely not out of character...and no he hasn't done plenty of ignoble things.

The only quality thing i've really argued (in a quality sense) is people saying the illumanati is out of character, i really don't think it is. All hulk wants is to be left alone after all (and reed has been expressing regrets in FF).

Reed keeping this from his own wife is out of character. Reed deceiving his friend Bruce Banner to banish him to outerspace is out of character.

 

[BrianWilly]

The inherent purpose of the Illuminati was for members from different aspects of the superhero world to meet, exchange information and ideas, and plan ahead for possible threats.

The DCU doesn't need an Illuminati because members from different aspects of the superhero world already meet, exchange information and ideas, and plan ahead for possible threats all the time anyway. Magicians, scientists, natural metas (aka mutants), leaders of other dimensions and countries, and aliens from outer space comprise a reasonable equality amongst the JLA, JSA, Teen Titans, and Outsiders. And even those separate teams meet each other all the time for dinner and parties and sht.

In the Marvel universe, however, generic superheroes make up one distinct team, mutants are completely separate faction, the Fantastic Four operate on their own terms, and then there's people like Namor and Black Panther who intentially remain distant. They needed some way of keeping in touch with each other. In fact, I'm not really sure why they were a secret society in the first place.

 

[gildea]

Same as the origin of most villains who start off with good intentions in one issue, something tragic and life changing happens and then they switch sides... we see this time and time again in comics. Except with SPB, it happened over many, many years. That's the thing I think you're not seeing... we saw him only once before, then many years later, he's changed. It didn't happen instantly from one day to the next.

Irrelevant i'm only saying he DID change.

Well, it's not crazy when Bruce Wayne is wanted for murder... how do you expect him to go around being Bruce Wayne, a man wanted for murder who has escaped from prison? C'mon.

No i expect him to try and clear his name. though he did eventually his intial attidtude was "no i'll just leave it and never be bruce wayne".

That's not deception, and definitely not out of character...and no he hasn't done plenty of ignoble things.

The JLA certainly felt decived. The arc also played him as deceptive, using innocent questions and training routines to study them and make plans. Really I don't see how doing one thing and planning in secret from that ISN'T deceptive.

Ignoble? In a fight with dick in the fugitive arc he worked him into smashing through the jason todd memorial, seems pretty ignoble to me.
sucker punched hal recently too (revenge isn't a particularly noble thing, especially amongst heroes).

Reed keeping this from his own wife is out of character. Reed deceiving his friend Bruce Banner to banish him to outerspace is out of character.

Not if it's all hulk ever wanted it's not. Plus it had the added bonus of making the world safer. I'd say it was more dishonest than out of character.
Reeds certainly done his fair share of deception if he thinks its for the best. In waids last issue he accused ben of trying to avoid getting his powers back, starting a fight with him so he would go home all for the right reason tat the end of the day.
At the end of the day reed only tried to make the world safer and the hulk happier how is that out of character?

 

[Lackey]

Irrelevant i'm only saying he DID change.

It is relevant because you're trying to compare this to what Marvel has done and it's not the same.

No i expect him to try and clear his name. though he did eventually his intial attidtude was "no i'll just leave it and never be bruce wayne".

It's understandable for him to be in a semi state of depression and have a somewhat "give up" attitude after being defeated like that, bringing him to one of the lowest points in his life. He also probably felt that he'd never be able to clear Bruce Wayne's name...and if Cain hadn't given up, that probably would be true.

The JLA certainly felt decived. The arc also played him as deceptive, using innocent questions and training routines to study them and make plans. Really I don't see how doing one thing and planning in secret from that ISN'T deceptive.

They felt betrayed, not deceived. He kept something from them that they felt he should've trusted them with, and some felt he shouldn't have done at all. They felt that he didn't trust them and in turn they didn't trust him any longer.

After this arc, Batman has been proven right time and time again... are you going to tell me that when Planet Hulk is over and done with, the Illuminati will be proven right by their decision?

Ignoble? In a fight with dick in the fugitive arc he worked him into smashing through the jason todd memorial, seems pretty ignoble to me.
sucker punched hal recently too (revenge isn't a particularly noble thing, especially amongst heroes).

I think you're reaching if you have to look to fist fights to find something here. I'm thinking on a bigger scale like mindwiping or tricking a friend into exile or even lying to your wife.

Not if it's all hulk ever wanted it's not.

Then you'd think he could've discussed it rationally with Banner instead of tricking him.

Plus it had the added bonus of making the world safer.

think of how many villains they could've sent out in space to make the world safer

I'd say it was more dishonest than out of character.
Reeds certainly done his fair share of deception if he thinks its for the best. In waids last issue he accused ben of trying to avoid getting his powers back, starting a fight with him so he would go home all for the right reason tat the end of the day.

That really doesn't compare in the least to what he did to Banner.

At the end of the day reed only tried to make the world safer and the hulk happier how is that out of character?

I'm sure the Hulk will thank him when he gets back.

 

[gildea]

It is relevant because you're trying to compare this to what Marvel has done and it's not the same.

Its exactly the same (in context). The comment was DC doesn't dirty up their characters i said they do and provided examples.

Thats the only comparison i'm making, anything else you've inferred.

(i noticed you've not actually disagreed with my comparison, only drawn arguement on justification which aside from batman and the actions of the illuminati i have made no claims)

It's understandable for him to be in a semi state of depression and have a somewhat "give up" attitude after being defeated like that, bringing him to one of the lowest points in his life. He also probably felt that he'd never be able to clear Bruce Wayne's name...and if Cain hadn't given up, that probably would be true.

Hardly the evidence against him was incredibly patchy. Prior to that arc he was also having conversations with himself in the batcave and hallucinating a giant bat figure.

They felt betrayed, not deceived. He kept something from them that they felt he should've trusted them with, and some felt he shouldn't have done at all. They felt that he didn't trust them and in turn they didn't trust him any longer.

The felt betrayed by his deception. You're splitting hairs if you're trying to make that argument. Besides betrayal is when you turn against someone he didn't, his plans he made just fell into the wrong hands. (anyway put deception into theasaurus.com and you'll get betrayal).

Thats an incredibly weak point.

After this arc, Batman has been proven right time and time again... are you going to tell me that when Planet Hulk is over and done with, the Illuminati will be proven right by their decision?

Yeah brother eye worked out REALLY well.
It's not a matter of right or wrong (and never has been) all the discussion with the illuminati issue has been if it was in character. NOTHING about their characters makes them infallible (not sure why you put that in to be honest).

I think you're reaching if you have to look to fist fights to find something here. I'm thinking on a bigger scale like mindwiping or tricking a friend into exile or even lying to your wife.

I could argue he launched brother eye even after tower of babel. Regardless i think desecrating the memorial of a fallen comerade is worse than with withholding information from your wife (depending on the information of course).

Then you'd think he could've discussed it rationally with Banner instead of tricking him.

yes. Unfortunately they had no guarantee they could convince him.

think of how many villains they could've sent out in space to make the world safer

They have. With doom and magneto. Unfortunately they came back.

That really doesn't compare in the least to what he did to Banner.

I didn't say it was the same only that he was capable of deception.

I'm sure the Hulk will thank him when he gets back.

Who knows?

 

[Doc Destruction]

IC has been brewing in the DC universe for a very very long time. It is taut, fine toothed storytelling.

The Illuminati was dropped in our laps from nowhere and we were told that they have been around a very long time, with NO evidence to support that claim whatsoever.

DC doesn't need an illuminati. They have good writers instead. I'll take that anyday.

 

[Anubis]

Actually there is a conection to past continuity with the Illuminati. I think it was put in that Civil War thread over in the Marvel Forums. Everybody was shocked that they actually used the established continuity for a story.

 

[Harlekin]

Actually there is a conection to past continuity with the Illuminati. I think it was put in that Civil War thread over in the Marvel Forums. Everybody was shocked that they actually used the established continuity for a story.

I'm pretty sure the only foundation is actually the Illuminati coming together partially during the Contest of Champions, but that's all.

 

[gildea]

IC has hardly been retacon free.

Jason todd anyone?

the illminati makes a lot more sense than that.



(there I have committed to an opinion regarding the justification of something, HUZZAH!)

 

[Anubis]

True, but it does show all the involved characters together, years before this current story. So, it establishes that they've actually been seen together.

 

[Harlekin]

True, but it does show all the involved characters together, years before this current story. So, it establishes that they've actually been seen together.

I will admit to this. I doubt however that Bendis actually knew of this little throwaway scene.

 

[Anubis]

Maybe. All I'm saying is that, it's really no more implausable than say, what went down in Identity Crisis. It's not a question of weather or not they would become a secret society discussing the goings on of the Marvel Universe. The question is, will it be a good story? That remains to be seen. But I did enjoy the special, so at least it has promise in my eyes.

 

[Harlekin]

Maybe. All I'm saying is that, it's really no more implausable than say, what went down in Identity Crisis. It's not a question of weather or not they would become a secret society discussing the goings on of the Marvel Universe. The question is, will it be a good story? That remains to be seen. But I did enjoy the special, so at least it has promise in my eyes.

I will agree with you, because ultimately, the Power Pact and Illuminati were revealed in the exact same way. Just thrown into our lap. The difference between the two (and I'm not calling either good or bad) is that the Power Pact was used to 'explain' certain stories and changes, while the Illuminati was the setup for a new story (although the Pact was also used as that in some extent).

I think people would have more readily accepted the Illuminati if they had gotten some foreshadowing (say, have Tony call Strange or Reed after a particular adventure). The Power Pact was at the forefront of a 2-year plan, and the Illuminati was the forefront for a summer event. Oh well.

 

[yenaled]

For me the Power Pact made more sense, and I kind of already knew it was inplace before it was given a name. We know Hal, Ollie, Barry and Canary were really close, and we know Hawkman and Atom were always really close. It's also been shown numberous times that Elongated Man and Barry Allen were close. So you already had a close-nit team inside the League. With the Trinity being a known pillar of the League it seemed to write itself that this second string section of the League was very close also.

Where as the Illuminati was very quickly revealed. It would have been great if we had seen recently shadowy figures meeting and discussing a situation, with their numbers dropping each time - with people discussing other members of the Illuminati (grated it wouldn't have covered this history up till the first S/K War but it would have provided at least forshadowing). Then the special revealing what had been going on in the background.

 

[gildea]

Well they've foreshadowed in the time alotted.

They're been in New avengers, hulk and their own mini.

they also apprently appeared together wayy back in the past.

That seems like enough for me.