Debate #1: Phoenix: What Works and What Doesn't?

[Goddessreicho]

What really didn't work for me was the lack of interraction between Phoenix and the rest of the X-Men. The majority of her points of contact in the team didn't survive the experience--and everyone else she had a relationship with didn't get any screentime with her.

It would've been nice to see Storm and Jean have at least some interraction--afterall, the prior films showed them as close comrades.

I can't believe you just said that. Jean and Storm had no realationship outside of being co-workers who lived in the same building. The only time in the entire trilogy they had together was the 15 minute super sonic flight to Boston, where only X-men stuff was on the menu. I'm sure if other things had come up one of them may have been, "Keep all orifices shut around the Hairy Machismo. If you don't, you will look more and more scanky."

What, I can dream can't I?t:

More on topic. I think something small that was in the early comics, and simple that would have shown the duality much better between Jean and Phoenix would have been the mirror thing.

Remember Jean looking in on Phoenix (on fire) in the mirror, telling her to do bad things, just because she can. Ooo that would have been awesome. That's another thing I missed. Where was the devilish spunky Phoenix with the attitude of a school yard bully? There could have been some hilariously cruel scenes with her and some great one liners.

 

[La_She-Beast]

That would help tremendously now, wouldn't it? LOL

LOL I know but in some topics people just post their opinions without considering those who already posted. And that's a fact.

I'm looking at YOU. Muahahaaaa

 

[cronosred]

1.I liked the mind blocks thing because it explained why Jean was so weak in the other two, and it felt that the reason these blocks broke down was because of Magnetos machine in the first movie which IMO was better than the machine evolved her and only her.
2.The costume worked fine for me
3.I wanted it to feel like Jean had a double personality since I knew that whether Singer or Ratner directed we were not going to get the Phoenix entity, so again I was happy.
4.I felt that in the end Jean sould die so again happy.
5. I was not happy about the rise of Phoenix being cut.
6. Not happy about lack of firebird fx.
7.I Thought the wire work could have been done better
8.I think she should have had more dialogue.
9.Although I'm alright with the look of Dark Phoenix I would have liked it better if it would have been more like X2.
10.I would have liked Phoenix to have done more destruction like to a big city but I'm alright with what we got.
11.Cyclops should have been the one to take her out and if he had to die thats when it should have happend.

 

[Spider-Fan83]

1.I liked the mind blocks thing because it explained why Jean was so weak in the other two, and it felt that the reason these blocks broke down was because of Magnetos machine in the first movie which IMO was better than the machine evolved her and only her.

I know, this explanation, is what they where going on, and is the most popular theory.
but, I always thought, that it was her using cerebro in the first movie, (which the professor always told her was too "dangerous" for her too use) that broke down the mind blocks, cause it forced her to push her powers beyond the blocks
just my theory

to me, Magnetos machine effecting her, doesn't really make since IMO

 

[xmenfilesfan05]

Considering that one machine has to do with the use of one's mind, and pushing herself and the other has to do with the mutation of one's body...it would make sense to me that if the mind block theory was used it would be Cerebro's fault that the blocks broke...personally, I would have much rather heard the evolution explaination...considering the machine's purpose was to push evolution forward.

 

[BMM]

What really didn't work for me was the lack of interraction between Phoenix and the rest of the X-Men. The majority of her points of contact in the team didn't survive the experience--and everyone else she had a relationship with didn't get any screentime with her.

Agreed.

It would've been nice to see Storm and Jean have at least some interraction--afterall, the prior films showed them as close comrades.

I pretty much agree. Storm cared enough about Jean to question her expanding power aboard the X-Jet when she believed Jean was the one suddenly repairing it rather than Magneto... Moreover, Storm cared enough about Jean to ask her about her simple leg wound at the end of X2... but when her friend and teammate returns from the dead (with all sorts of problems) after sacrificing herself? Nothing.

I think the two should have had at least one scene together... something... anything. I know that Jean could have demolecularized Storm with the bat of an eye, but Storm was shown to have enough faith in her comrades and was willing to die to save complete strangers at the end of X2. Surely, she and Jean could have had some scenes together.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

I pretty much agree. Storm cared enough about Jean to question her expanding power aboard the X-Jet when she believed Jean was the one suddenly repairing it rather than Magneto... Moreover, Storm cared enough about Jean to ask her about her simple leg wound at the end of X2... but when her friend and teammate returns from the dead (with all sorts of problems) after sacrificing herself? Nothing.

I think the two should have had at least one scene together... something... anything. I know that Jean could have demolecularized Storm with the bat of an eye, but Storm was shown to have enough faith in her comrades and was willing to die to save complete strangers at the end of X2. Surely, she and Jean could have had some scenes together.

I definatley agree with you here. It's one problem I have with the film.

The perfect oppourtunity was the scene when Xavier was explaining the situation to Wolverine when they returned with Jean.

Why Storm wasn't in the room with them is beyond me. It would have been a perfect oppourtunity not only for Wolverine to express his dislike of the situation, but it would have given Storm a chance to express her concern of the situation with Jean. Logan being there by himself doesn't make any sense at all.

 

[britrogue]

That was just another attempt to make Wolvie the centre of the entire X-Men universe. Don't get me wrong, I really liked Jackman's portrayal of Wolvie, but I really resented the fact that every other character was put on the back burner to make him number one.

 

[cronosred]

I know, this explanation, is what they where going on, and is the most popular theory.
but, I always thought, that it was her using cerebro in the first movie, (which the professor always told her was too "dangerous" for her too use) that broke down the mind blocks, cause it forced her to push her powers beyond the blocks
just my theory

to me, Magnetos machine effecting her, doesn't really make since IMO

That's a good point, I forgot about the cerebro scene. It also makes sense about why the professor wouldn't want her to use cerebro.

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

I'm sure if other things had come up one of them may have been, "Keep all orifices shut around the Hairy Machismo. If you don't, you will look more and more scanky."

ROTFLMAO.

And yet the tragically hilarious part is that they sort of did the exact opposite in X2.

Girl talk ending up with the pair basically laughing about the notion of betraying one's fiancee. The one time they talk of something non-work-related and it has to be about something that morally ambiguous. Real smooth, guys.

 

[storm-x-fan]

PHOENIX​

Welcome, fellow Hype Members. So, We have here our first debate. It's no surprise to anyone that one of the most polemic subjects regarding X-Men: The Last Stand, was the treatment of Phoenix. To many, it was treated poorly throughout the movie, while to others, the character did have an interesting role on the plot. So, this is the place to discuss:

- General Opinions on the "Mind Blocks" theory. Does it work within the plot of the movie and the story settled by its predecessors?

- The character development, as well as the continuity.

- What is missing on her?

- Does it make justice, at least partially, to the comic version?

- The Phoenix effects. Good enough, was the Firebird essential or not?

- The Phoenix outfit.

These are just some examples of topics regarding the character and her treatment. The most important is, as the title says, to vent what, in your opinion, works and what doesn't work on one of the most anticipated comic characters to ever hit the silver screen.

Have Fun, and Behave!

yes, the mind block works quite well....

the character developmesnt is not at all satisfactory. sudenly jean became dark phoenix without going through any evolution!!

one thing i missed was the fire SFX

no, not at all. i find the comic and movie phoenix totally diferent.

yes, the firebird was essential.

i hate the outfit!! there should have been a symbol of a bird at least

and i also think a younger actress should have portrayed her...

so in a word- I'M PERSONALLY NOT SATISFIED WITH THE MOVIE PHOENIX. :heart:

 

[KenK]

- General Opinions on the "Mind Blocks" theory. Does it work within the plot of the movie and the story settled by its predecessors?

I thought it worked in the context of the films just from a standpoint of Xavier always keeping tabs on Jean's development. The first film established that Xavier was helping her develop her telepathy, and that she doesn't have the degree of control Xavier has to operate Cerebro. Deleted scenes from the first film show Xavier and Jean verbally acknowledging the expansion of her powers, and the concern that she might lose control. Making Phoenix a whole other personality because of it, though, that's the tricky part.

- The character development, as well as the continuity.

I'd be foolish to expect them to do the comic continuity justice, and I never would have wanted them to try. As for film continuity, it's a bit of a pain because clearly, despite the expansion of her powers and the evolution of the Phoenix, Jean is still Jean. Every instance of her using her evolved powers in X2 was a means of saving her teammates. Having the first thing she does when re-emerging in X3 be killing Scott was absolutely ridiculous. It made utterly no sense.

- What is missing on her?

Just an overall development on the character. Like I just said, the moment she's "reborn", she's evil. I think seeing her develop into Dark Phoenix would have made for a much more satisfying character arc.

- Does it make justice, at least partially, to the comic version?

I liked parts of it, but I wouldn't say it really did the comic justice, or even what Singer did in his X-Films, as you could see a clear path from X1 leading through X2. He had a set path for this character, and filmmakers behind X3 pretty much ignored everything he was trying to do.

- The Phoenix effects. Good enough, was the Firebird essential or not?

As others have said, it's a symbol of her rebirth, and just from a film continuity standpoint, we see firebird manifestations throughout X2. And not just the flames that appear around Jean when she lifts the jet, but in her clothing, granted, The clothing parts weren't relevant to the story, but cute little winks at the fans; "Look, she's wearing a necklace with a firebird!" "Look, she's got a firebird embroidered on her jacket!" He has its place.

What we did get was essentially a "Dark Willow" look, kind of ironic considering the fact that the whole Dark Willow subplot clearly drew influence from Dark Phoenix. Whedon's a big X-fan from way back, and he's been writing a X-comic for the last two years.

- The Phoenix outfit.

I definitely wasn't expecting a unitard with a scarf belt and a big bird emblem completely covering the torso! What we got was fine for the film.

 

[imaperson2]

her rebirth could have been like ariel's rebirth in the little mermaid

 

[storm-x-fan]

^^ LOlz!!

one more thing i missed was THE STRUGGLE BETWEEN JEAN AND PHOENIX. IT WASNT TOO GOOD......

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

^^ LOlz!!

one more thing i missed was THE STRUGGLE BETWEEN JEAN AND PHOENIX. IT WASNT TOO GOOD......

That's not Famke's fault though. That falls squarely on the shoulders of the writers--who wrote the character in a one-dimmensional, muted format. I thought Famke was brilliant in the little she had to work with, but her talent was wasted. The character was not psycho enough--we really didn't see a Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde mental struggle--she was just Dark Phoenix 99.9% of the time...hating and evaporating everyone who came near her.

Lame.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

Why Storm wasn't in the room with them is beyond me. It would have been a perfect oppourtunity not only for Wolverine to express his dislike of the situation, but it would have given Storm a chance to express her concern of the situation with Jean. Logan being there by himself doesn't make any sense at all.

Agreed. The shallow Hollywood studio politics really bled through in scenes like the one you mentioned above. It's just so glaringly apparent that the top-billed star needed even more screentime.

I think the two should have had at least one scene together... something... anything. I know that Jean could have demolecularized Storm with the bat of an eye, but Storm was shown to have enough faith in her comrades and was willing to die to save complete strangers at the end of X2. Surely, she and Jean could have had some scenes together.

I agree with you. From what we know of the film, only Magneto and Logan know the true nature of what Charles did to Jean. So Storm wouldn't have had the knowledge necessary to make her slip up and say something dangerously stupid like "The professor can help, he can fix it!" to torque Jean off. Storm might've reasoned with her longtime girlfriend more effectively...reaching part of Jean that all the other men were apparently failing to hit.

Again, an example of deplorable writing, studio politics and bad development.

 

[Victarion]

Danger Level:

In this movie, I never really viewed her as being all that dangerous. She just stood around Magneto looking pissed off. Maybe if she destroyed a major city with her powers, then turned on Magneto later, she'd have been more intimidating.

Firebird:

I saw it at the end of X-2. What happened here?