Development vs. Retconning (re: recent events)

[i'm Spider-Man]

I'm starting this thread to vent some frustration.

I scanned perhaps half a dozen threads in the last twenty minutes, most of which full of comments such as:

"Consider my Marvel comics dropped"

"this is raping a character with 50 years of history"

"they'll retcon it away in a couple of years anyway"

"let's see how they squirm outta this one"

"thank god i started buying DC again"

and so on, and so forth; I could quote PAGES of this stuff, but it'd all say the same.

Why are people so damn SCARED by change? Okay, so Peter Parker reveals on live television that he has been Spider-Man since he was fifteen. Big news, huge news for the Marvel Universe. Big change to the character's status in the community, big change to the state of his life in the years to come.

Why is this instantly a problem to people? And why is it assumed it's going to be 'retconned' in a few years? 'Retconning' is going back in time, and trying to convince people

a) "that never happened, it was a dream/alternate reality/time-travel/generic excuse thing"

b) "oh this happened, but they just never told you about it at the time, so we're conveniently telling you now"

Anything that moves a character forward, that takes place in the MU of today, is a little thing known in writing as character development. It siginifies change, it signifies evolution, and most of all it signifies the maturation of a character. We watch characters grow, and learn, and become adults because of this technique.

Why is Peter Parker going to become a completely different person, unrecognisable and unreadable to his fans, because he decided to take a brave but well thought-through step and reveal his identity to the world? Simple answer.

he isn't.

Peter Parker at the beginning of his career was completely unwilling to reveal his identity, for the reasons we all know; danger to loved ones, etc. But over the years, he has LEARNED and CHANGED as a result of all the events in his life. he has decided that amongst the events taking place now, because of a promise he made to Tony Stark, because of what he believes is the right thing to do now, that revealing his identity is what he wants and needs to do.

I just wish people could have more faith, and not see this as the ruin of the character. Sure, maybe they will revert back to a secret identity in a couple of years, maybe not. They didn't do it to Cap yet, did they. But when it happens, hey, maybe it'll be something that evolves the character again, that creates a new situation for Peter Parker. Who knows, it might even be interesting...

- ISM

 

[supermarvelman]

Agreed

 

[Artistsean]

Whats Retconning?

 

[torkibe]

Whats Retconning?

When the writers do something to erase what has happened, or change the history...

 

[HR-PUFF&STUFF]

What's a Nubian?

 

[torkibe]

What's a Nubian?

A black person.

 

[Aquaman]

What's a Nubian?

Love that movie.

And well said. I definatly think this could end up interesting. They're comic books, things change. I wasn't so much around the forums when it happened, but when Professor X revieled him being a mutant on live tv taken with this sorta reaction(of course not as big, since its not as big of a deal, and it was Cassandra Nova at the time, but still)?

I think people need to understand that people who write characters for anything want to move the character forward and not keep them completely unchanged forever. Its a step forward for Peter Parker/Spider-Man. I'm curious what will come out of this whole situation.

 

[HR-PUFF&STUFF]

Love that movie.

And well said. I definatly think this could end up interesting. They're comic books, things change. I wasn't so much around the forums when it happened, but when Professor X revieled him being a mutant on live tv taken with this sorta reaction(of course not as big, since its not as big of a deal, and it was Cassandra Nova at the time, but still)?

I think people need to understand that people who write characters for anything want to move the character forward and not keep them completely unchanged forever. Its a step forward for Peter Parker/Spider-Man. I'm curious what will come out of this whole situation.

but there are missteps you can take with a comic like cap-wolf or spider-clones any one.
and it seems that they keep on changeing things for the X-men and Spider-Man but they never seem to get around to other b or c level heroes.

i think that most people are tired of the "Next big thing for spider-man" and would like to the "Next big thing for Blank". also they keep doing bigger and bigger things for spider-man that you never have time to look at what they just did because they have something bigger comeing out next month.

 

[NinjinSteve]

I was a little pissed off that the effects of HOM on Spidey were never really dealt with except for a few panels in Son of M #1.....I mean that stuff realllly messed him up as we all saw in HOM 8 with him breaking down and smashing the table in Avenger's Tower and whatnot........but that's all the effects were? A broken table?


BUT OTHER THAN THAT I agree, at first I was very against what happened.....but the more time that passes...the more I think clearly about it.....I really want to see how this story progresses and how Spidey deals with the outcome.

 

[supermarvelman]

What more could he do than throw a tantrum, he has to go on with his life, it was like he woke up from a bad dream, it wasnt real.

 

[kiuju2k]

*Yawn*... like i said.. Morbid curiosity.

 

[Horrorfan]

Great original post.

People who ***** about retconning don't realise that it was only retconned first time because people like them complained and *****ed untill Marvel felt they had to do so....and then have the audacity to say that Marvel doesn't listen to it's fans.

I'm all for change, when it's intriguing and provides a new direction, which is exactly what this is.

People say that big events should impact the world and have meaning, and when they do what happens?

People *****.

Sometimes I shake my head at these people.

 

[Tropico]

Marvel doesn't do anything because of the fan's b!tch!ng, they do it when it hurts their pockets. People didn't like the stories, sales went down and Marvel changed back. Blame the fans all you want but just because they're fans doesn't mean they have to but everything. If they don't like it, then they'll stop buying it and if it hurts Marvel enough then they'll go back to what they think the people that aren't buying would like to read. If it isn't to the minority's liking, them's the breaks.

The funny thing is that if Marvel takes this back it's more than likely that all of these "give it a chance" people will be doing all the b!tch!ng.

 

[Horrorfan]

The funny thing is that if Marvel takes this back it's more than likely that all of these "give it a chance" people will be doing all the b!tch!ng.

I think marvel cares about its product. Joe Q is clearly passionate about comics. If something doesnt sell, of course you cancel it. Thats BUISNESS. Marvel is....a what? I'll let you fill that in. If a title sells bad, is that his fault? Hell no, but some of you try to blame it on him anyway.

and yes of course it will be those people *****ing, because the good ol' 'i fear change' regime wins again and keeps things nice and stale, exactly like it was then they were kids and innocent and luved the comics

 

[Tropico]

I think marvel cares about its product. Joe Q is clearly passionate about comics. If something doesnt sell, of course you cancel it. Thats BUISNESS. Marvel is....a what? I'll let you fill that in. If a title sells bad, is that his fault? Hell no, but some of you try to blame it on him anyway.

Wow, that's really different from your previous post where you blame the fan's b!tch!ng! If a title is declining some of the creative people are to blame, not the fans and not Quesadilla, unless it's something he IS involved with.

and yes of course it will be those people *****ing, because the good ol' 'i fear change' regime wins again and keeps things nice and stale, exactly like it was then they were kids and innocent and luved the comics

Then they shouldn't b!+ch because those are the people that are telling these other people to quit the b!+ching. If they're honest about their stance about letting things happen then they should let things happen if they change back, because some of it will change back but it's still going forward.

It looks like you're a little angry at the people that didn't like the ID reveal so I won't comment on your remark. I'll just ask you this, if people were so frightened of change why has Spider Man gone through so many changes? Why is he still married? Why does he still have the Iron Spider suit? Why is there a boat load of people that would love for him to have the black and white (Venom) costume again? Why has the sory for Spidey's origin as something mystical instead of scientific still canon? I think you give people too little credit because they disagree with your excitment over the reveal. And I think that those people that are outraged are so angry right now that they just need some time to cool off.

So to all of those people making more threads about tolerance and waiting, you should ask of yourselves the same that you're asking other people to do with comics, only with people.

 

[Dread]

I'm definately not one of the fans who've vowed not to "ever read a Spider-title again" after the events of CW #2, especially before I read the book; I think a fringe of "extreme" fans sometimes overshadow some of us who are critical, but who can do so without insults or sweeping generalizations. I also say this as someone who, despite my concerns for CW as a storyline and as something Marvel will inevitably have to recover from in about 1-2 years, is enjoying it. I LIKED CW #2 overall.

But, I haven't read a Spider-book "regularly" (as in, monthly) for a good 10 years now; I've only started on the book again for the CW stuff and I probably won't stick around once it is finished. Why? Because about 10 or so years ago, Marvel was in the midst of a story we all know that sought to "change" Spider-Man as we knew it, do something "edgy", risky, as if he was somehow broken. It alienated a lot of people and I lost interest in my subscription. Unfortunately, too many writers since have seemed to believe that the "formula" to Spider-Man is a problem and so they keep doing wide, sweeping "events" with him to "spice" things up, but in the end they only seem to complicate and convelute matters. THE OTHER is the latest example of this trend.

There's another Spider-title that's not as afraid of a little formula, and that's ULTIMATE SPIDER-MAN. Sure, it has its flaws, and ironically I sort of wish Bendis wasn't as formulic in his style and allowed the book to grow a little (or at least show Spider-Man as being not as incompetant). But, it offers the fundamentals of what made Spider-Man great and low and behold, the movies are more than willing to use stuff from THAT, vs. anything done in a core Spider-book in 10 years, and audiences will flock to see it. It also was outselling just about every other Spider-book on a routine basis before THE OTHER and then PRELUDE/CIVIL WAR started about 6 months ago and pulled up the sales of the Spider-books.

"Give it a chance", people say, and that's a fair agruement. Some "good" stories could come of the identity reveal. But assuming that the Spider writers will be able to handle such a reveal efficiently after what we've seen from THE OTHER makes being optimistic seem a bit debatable. If these are the writers who felt Spider-Man should mutate into a giant spider and then eat a man's face, can they be expected to handle this?

The bigger concern is that this act is yet another act that "removes" Spider-Man from what made him appealing in the first place, and that was some realistic relation to a typical person. Oh, but he's married to MJ, a "supermodel/actress", people moan. So? Do supermodel/actresses NOT get married in the real world, sometimes to "average" guys who make you think, "Gawd, what does she see in HIM" (Kevin Federline, anyone?). Are there not men who sometimes marry women they are in awe of, but who love them because they can be "real" with them? Plus, MJ's status as a "supermodel/actress" is variable; some years, coincidentally after SPIDER-MAN grossed $800 million, MJ has been a celeb; other years, she's barely pulled together a decent salary. The point is that what made Spider-Man work was that there was some degree of seperation between his superhero life and his civilian life, and BOTH were essential to the story. You liked reading about the soap opera perils of Peter's life, married or not, and you also liked seeing Spider-Man swing through the city and fight Doc Ock and whatever. But within the last year or so, that civilian life has all but vanished. The supporting cast are GONE, and no new ones to replace him (despite the fact that working as a HS school teacher should be a goldmine for that kinda thing). He lives in Stark Tower, so less money woes for rent and whatnot. He has a nanobot suit of armor, he's a member of the Avengers, and whenever he's not with MJ or May, he is with other superheroes. His hero life now dominmates him, and it makes him more generic. He's essentially The Flash, or Blue Beetle, or Booster Gold, or Fire, etc. And if I wanted that, I'd be reading THEIR comics.

Speaking of THE FLASH, DC pulled this card with Wally West years ago. It did result in some good stories. But it ran its course and inevitably required some highly dramatic, conveluted cosmic level solution to "erase" that knowledge from the people's minds. A ID reveal is not something that can be undone so easily, and as Marvel should know that sometimes the winds can shift and they can change their direction if it means an extra 100,000 issues sold of something, that they should leave a back-door that isn't as cheesy. A snap of the fingers from Loki to solve a problem of writing into a corner does not a good climax make. Oh, but being hesitant or using hindsight doesn't result in the short-turn "shock" appeal, which is all Marvel can think of. Now. Now now NOW. What works NOW, what's hot NOW, what sells NOW. Which makes them look very silly in a few months or 2 years when they backpeddle and undow the old "now" to make way for the new "now". Basically, they get stuck in the business of copying trends instead of setting them, of needing to keep the shock-train rolling because they can't sell using the bare fundamentals. Or at least they're not as interested in the bare fundamentals.

Plus, in the context of the story, while Spider-Man's identity reveal was a bold move and a "character moment for Peter" some say, it makes little sense if you take the CW story literally. The SHRA demands that heroes identify themselves to the government in much the way agents do, so they become accountable for mishaps and can get "training" (and be controlled better). That does NOT mean the same as revealing your ID publically. The assertation is that heroes who obey SHRA but still wear a mask in public are "hypocrites", which is downright ludicrious and naive. The public accepts this "hypocrisy" from undercover copys, covert ops, and secret agents, who all do fine work in law enforcement and national security. And those agents aren't under the same level of threat as heroes who have villians who are essentially "persons of mass destruction". Green Arrow gave a great speach in IDENTITY CRISIS about why heroes need to wear masks, and that speach fits here: basically, it allows them to fight the good fight while keeping their loved ones safe. Spider-Man revealing his ID does nothing to keep his family safe; in fact, his greatest loss (according to Marvel), losing Gwen Stacy, happened PRECISELY because the wrong person found out who he was, and used it against him. Years later, Venom would do the same thing, terrorizing MJ in their apartment and all but daring Peter into battles in front of May. The fact that Spider-Man somehow needs a refresher lesson in this just makes him seem naive. I can understand MJ and May pressuring him (May moreso than MJ at least), but it inevitably will backfire on him (if CW #5's cover is any indication), and Spider-Man should have known that. Plus, that seperation allows him to keep his civilian life and superhero life seperate; now that line is gone, and so is that connection to the common man. He's a celeb now. Celebs are people we look UP at, not people we feel on an even level with. While most superheroes are awe-inspiring for their virtues, not all of them seemed larger than life in other matters.

That is not to say Spider-Man can't grow as a character, but using that same logic, isn't revealing his ID to appease a public he's NEVER BEEN ABLE TO APPEASE BEFORE with an act that isn't legally required and is highly dangerous to his friends and family a bit of a regression? Isn't it naive to believe that the world will embrace him, and that MJ and May, not to mention pals like Flash, Betty, Liz, Robbie, etc. will be safe? Spider-Man could have been a good moderate voice between the pro's and anti-SHRA act, a middle-ground. Now he's pitched his tent with Iron Man fully and is set up to be the story's cautionary tale. Its interesting that JMS essentially "created" a mentor position between Peter and Iron Man for this thing, when all that was required would have been to strengthen the ties between Mr. Fantastic and Spider-Man that already existed to that same end; I think that would have felt more natural, as Spider-Man and Iron Man were barely on speaking terms before THE OTHER, whereas Peter and Reed had gotten together (with the Four) many times. Who'd Peter go to about the living costume, for instance? Read Slott's SPIDER-MAN/HUMAN TORCH for a look at how close Spidey and the Four have been. Ah, that pesky Marvel, always going to the hard route.

The thing is, in my heart I know the SHRA can't last, or it would basically put an end to Marvel's genre of superhero comics, and I doubt that is happening. By that same token, I doubt the Spider-reveal thing will last beyond when SPIDER-MAN 3 hits DVD. But the act is questionable for above reasons, and is one of those things that fans cringe because when it comes time to the inevitable "undo", which is inevitable because the act SO STRAYS FROM THE PROPERTY'S FUNDAMENTALS, it will take the sort of grand-sweeping cosmic baloney that people are getting tired off. Bippity, bobbity-boo, that mistake I shall undo. So why should I get as excited about the NEXT big event?

Of course, the other track would be for Marvel to get stubborn, like they did when they let the Spider-Clone mess drag on a good year longer than they had to, or with the "bone claw Wolverine" thing, which lasted about 6 years. The long term effects are questionable, and as I said, they pull Spider-Man so far from his realm of existance that it makes him something else entirely. More along the realms of "generic celebrity superhero". Plus, as history showed with THE FLASH, the plotline wares out its welcome in less than 3 years. Once you get done with the reactions of the friends, the public, maybe a few other tidbits...what then? To pursue it further, Spider-Man becomes a DD on the downside, in a state of near suicidal mislaise and misery, much like the "MJ is dead" era from Mackie's last gasps on ASM, because now the world is 100% against him. On the postive, the public loves him, he gets a Spider-Cave, lucrative merch deals, the support of all the heroes, he goes into space with the Avengers and arm wrestles Thanos...and all of a sudden, he's Generic Marvel Superhero, and it had nothing to do with his wife.

So I think some people have a right to be concerned. I'm interested in how it plays out in CW, but I doubt its going to last, because it can't if Spider-Man is to keep the stuff that's kept him lucrative for 40+ years, and making him more "standard" isn't going to be the way to keep him going for another 40 years.

 

[Doc Destruction]

Son of a *****....sigh.

1) A lot of us are considering this as BAD change. I happen to LOVE change when handled correctly. For instance, when May found out, I was pretty excited.

2) Not all of us are spewing blustering threats. I seriously dropped all Marvel titles minus Nextwave and Spider-Girl. I promised myself years ago that if things ever got too bad to enjoy anymore, I would quit comics. DC is still good in my book, Marvel is not, so I dropped them.

Hardly irrational to make a money decision based on quality.

 

[gildea]

So I think some people have a right to be concerned.

Of course they do.

But when people start spouting nonsense about characters being "raped" its moved on from concern onto something else.


The problems I have with a lot of the criticism are two fold :

a) people are concentrating too much on the reveal itself and ignoring how it flowed logically from the story that was being followed in ASM. This was the evolution of a story arc for peter and his family and flowed as thus. (this is fine if you only read CW I suppose and actually a glaring criticism of the event in my eyes but thats another debate).

b) people are criticising it on the basis of stories yet to be written (which I'd argue is different from expressing concerns). You can point to "the other" (and frankly i couldn't disagree with that logic) of evidence of not having faith in marvel to write spiderman. But I would at least hope fans would consider good work is at least POSSIBLE when not bogged dow with mysticism JMS has proven himself a capable spider writer and peter david has written some of the best spiderman ever. Fans are supposed to be well FANS shouldn't we try to be optimistic? (of course a pessimist is never disappointed as they say).

If you go into something you claim to like always expecting the worst are you really a fan anymore??

 

[OzzyKP]

I agree with the OP.

 

[WOLVERINE25TH]

There's good change, then there' change fer the sake of change. A lot of what Marvel's done lately is change fer the sake of change. Change through evolution is just fine, but it's absent. And if people would get their heads out of their asses and stop *****ing about people who *****, they would see that.

 

[Darthphere]

people are concentrating too much on the reveal itself and ignoring how it flowed logically from the story that was being followed in ASM.

Because it was written to be that way.

 

[Darthphere]

Great original post.

People who ***** about retconning don't realise that it was only retconned first time because people like them complained and *****ed untill Marvel felt they had to do so....and then have the audacity to say that Marvel doesn't listen to it's fans.

I'm all for change, when it's intriguing and provides a new direction, which is exactly what this is.

People say that big events should impact the world and have meaning, and when they do what happens?

People *****.

Sometimes I shake my head at these people.

Power of perception.

 

[taskmaster]

Power of perception.

Then why is everyone arguing when they know that they're not going to change the other person's opinion.

 

[Darthphere]

Then why is everyone arguing when they know that they're not going to change the other person's opinion.

Because then this would be a barren wasteland and a very boring place.

 

[Horrorfan]

Wow, that's really different from your previous post where you blame the fan's b!tch!ng! If a title is declining some of the creative people are to blame, not the fans and not Quesadilla, unless it's something he IS involved with.



Then they shouldn't b!+ch because those are the people that are telling these other people to quit the b!+ching. If they're honest about their stance about letting things happen then they should let things happen if they change back, because some of it will change back but it's still going forward.

It looks like you're a little angry at the people that didn't like the ID reveal so I won't comment on your remark. I'll just ask you this, if people were so frightened of change why has Spider Man gone through so many changes? Why is he still married? Why does he still have the Iron Spider suit? Why is there a boat load of people that would love for him to have the black and white (Venom) costume again? Why has the sory for Spidey's origin as something mystical instead of scientific still canon? I think you give people too little credit because they disagree with your excitment over the reveal. And I think that those people that are outraged are so angry right now that they just need some time to cool off.

So to all of those people making more threads about tolerance and waiting, you should ask of yourselves the same that you're asking other people to do with comics, only with people.

Actually, I said fans *****ing were responsible for RETCONNING, not the cancellation of series....I think you got a bit confused there . I


I rarely ***** about comics. You will find that....Im not someone who complains about every change and twist that comes along. Because the people who whine and moan about new things, remember this; how many of those bad changes that hurt your character before actually had a deep, lasting impact? Did it make you stop reading? No. The truth is, some changes WILL bomb, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try them because you never know untill you try.

If some of the people here were in charge, I bet that nothing would ever change and you would get basic villain of the week plots with no real consequences of events and it would all be a perfect, nice little tale in each issue that reminds them of the 'good old days'. **** that. I want someone to have the balls to try new things ocassionally.

While dc is rehashing old crisis plots for their big event, marvel is tackling bigger and better issues....was magneto right after all? what if his world did come to pass, and xavier was wrong? I dont care if it didnt come out as expected like a lot of people say (and im beginning to suspect that has more with the anti-bendis' brigade's bias more than the actual work, though I havent read it yet), its a great question in its own right. and the whole civil war has caused widespread debate on issues that we can sort of relate to the real world (ie would superheros really be made to register? just who was responsible for the stamford disaster? is wolverine right to hunt nitro? etc).


Some of you think like you would be better eic's than joe,, so quit *****ing, get your work out there and try and get the job. But for the meantime, he's here to stay, and I am glad about that