Dick Grayson as Nightwing and the defending of the original Jason Todd.

[TruerToTheCore]

First of all, I am (as many may not have noted) a purist and really think there should be a basic pattern for every hero. For example, Bruce Wayne is Batman, in his 30s, not married and having a butler called Alfred. Those things should never change. It's the successful formula. Change is allowed, but only the good additions should stay and nothing more than "window dressing" should change.

I am actually old enough to have lived in a time when we had the original Boy (eh Teen) Wonder in the comics: Dick Grayson. In the early 80s the Teen Titans were the biggest book in the DC output and WOlfman wanted to keep Dick Grayson in this team, but the Batman writers wanted to use Robin themselves, so they decided to let him "grow out" of his Robin role and become his own hero. Despite what many believe there was no "conflict" between Bruce and Dick. It was just a natural progression. And when they came up with the name, "Nightwing", that was just perfect. It honoured his old master Batman AND Earth's Mightiest Hero Superman. In Kandor Superman had no Superpowers so he and Jimmy Olsen disguised themself as "Nightwing" (playing Batman) and "Flamebird" (you guess it). That fit. The name - Genius. After the crisis they retconned this, of course, because no Kandor was there, and modern readers demand "conflict" and "realistic relationships" so they retconned it like "he heard some legends about an old Kryptonian hero named Nightwing", that was a real letdown and didn't make much sense.

And his replacement Jason Todd. He wasn't a simple "clone" as many claim and how he is described on many websites. I think it was clever linked to the Grayson family and he was a good character. Let alone that his origin was one of the better "big storyline" arcs in Batman's history. The original Killer-Croc was the real Bane, intelligent AND strong. (I have never really understodd why the brought him back in the new continuity, I mean, the original Jason Todd was gone, where was the point?). The post-crisis Jason Todd had a weaker origin (street punk), but despite what many people believe he was still likeable. He just started to act in strange ways when DC decided to pull the sleazy stunt to kill "Robin". (Yeah, just to bring on a new Robin a short time later. I am still convinced most people voted to kill simply "Robin" not the specific guy "Jason Todd", the public probably didn't know that there was a new Robin). Denny O'Neil's editiorial reign wasn't really good. On one hand he pushed his writers to make Batman darker and darker and grittier and more mature, more alone (and and) (thank god that people like Barr and Grant never really jumped on the psycho-batman bandwagon) and on the other hand he forced the re-introduction of things like Ace the bathound and new characters like Harold and Azrael.

So. I do not approve the change of Robin into Nightwing, but the result was something good and he was well-replaced. But it wasn't until the 90s that I started to like Nightwing, because he was somehow like the old 70s/80s Batman, the Batman they took away from us and replaced him with a jerk.

Don't know why I wrote this, but perhaps some historically well-educated Bat-Fan would like to make some comments so I haven't written all this stuff for nothing

 

[Majic Walrus]

I've read through the old stories of Robins past and I'm actually a big Robin fan. When my habit of comics became habit and not casual I started with Robin (Tim Drake). I love reading about Robin because I find the dynamic of Batman and Robin very interesting.

First let me say that everyone's favorite Robin is probably Dick Grayson and I would agree to a certain extent. I also agree with TrueToTheCore and I feel that Dick's transition to Nightwing was a natural progression and despite what retcons where made I still feel that the real reason Dick was "promoted" to Nightwing is that he deserved it.

Dick Grayson needed to be his own character because the fans loved him and he quickly became more than just Batman's side-kick. He became a hero of his own regard and I appreciate that he explored his own ventures

Next came Jason Todd, whom I hated and still hate, Jason I fill was a filler for the apparent lack of Robin. When people read Batman they expected to see a Robin and in many ways they deserved the occasional bit of Robin. Jason Todd wasn't a clone of Dick Grayson he was darker and brooding and his background was obviously very important to the progression of the character.

I don't think that DC's decision to pull a publicity stunt was just a sleezy move to see if people would kill Robin. I think that it came at a time where it might've been necessary to see Batman on his own. People wanted that and I don't think people liked the direction Jason Todd was moving. He was becoming more and more volatile and there was an obvious relationship problem that Bruce and Jason had. That culminated in A Death in the Family. Either way I'm confident that Jason was not going to continue to be Robin. It just ended with his death.

Now we have Nightwing (Dick Grayson) and Jason Todd (Dead) and we're about to introduce a new Robin. While Dick and Jason both fell onto hard times or a traumatic experience this new Robin is totally different. Tim Drake has a relatively happy childhood and is intelligent enough to discover Bruce Wayne's secrets and becomes the new Robin. This Robin is intelligent and is more of a detective. Also it's interesting to note that the biggest costume change has happened while Tim Drake held the Robin mantle. The uniform becoming darker overall and closer to Batman's cosutme in several ways.

That being said my favorite Robin isn't Dick Grayson. Dick Grayson is my favorite Nightwing and I think that being Robin was just a really long backstory for Nightwing. Jason Todd is my least favorite Robin because well... He was a jerk and I didn't like him. He was a temporary replacement at best. I was glad that he died and I think that was an excellent story. Tim Drake is my favorite Robin because he is Robin to me. Dick was Nightwing in waiting and Jason was always on the verge of leaving one way or the other. I think that Tim has moved into his own as Robin and that's what he should be doing being Robin.

I think that the change was good and even if there was rough times waiting through Jason Todd years the end result was Tim Drake and I'm okay with that. Now if we could just keep Jason Todd dead I'd be alright.

 

[Cain]

Speaking on Nightwing is redundant since we all love him for the same reasons, what he has become and how that has happened. I'm partial to respecting the leader he has become above all cause Batman #440 was my first comic and put me on to Wolfman and Perez' work on New Titans which I became a fan of. Speaking in defense of Jason Todd for once is interesting though. When I became interested in buying back issues in the mid 90's the great majority of them ended up being 80's stuff.

I don't think pre-crisis Jason is a Dick Grayson clone either. He wasn't as resourceful from the start and the whole Nocturna incident proved that he was more emotionally vulnerable than Dick. Definitely his own character who also became more confident and reliable regardless of how conflicted he was towards his end (Ie: the Two-Face two parter shortly before the crisis). Now post-crisis Jason while the whole conflict angle was played up a lot more it's not like it was non-existent pre-crisis it's still somewhat the same character in that respect.

Some of my favorite stories from around that time actually revolved around him like Batman 416 which also has good use of Nightwing and the underrated #424 which was one of the highlights of what I enjoyed about him. Which is how they added elements of the golden age Batman in certain respects to his character and seeing the modern Batman and his family reacting to these elements. I think if it continued it could've led to many interesting stories down the line too bad most fans seemed so inclined on hating Robin they didn't even help give it a chance to really blossom.

 

[Nepenthes]

And when they came up with the name, "Nightwing", that was just perfect. It honoured his old master Batman AND Earth's Mightiest Hero Superman.

Yeah the Nightwing name is awesome, the two greats combined in the ultimate next generation hero. I like the legend version much better though.

I don't know how on earth you can think the Jason pre-Crisis origin is better then the street kid one. It's not an exact clone of Grayson but it's prety damned close. At least the street kid made him distinct, he had reason for being a different kind of Robin. And I just think it's interesting to have a little delinquent as Robin instead of a boy scout.

I am still convinced most people voted to kill simply "Robin" not the specific guy "Jason Todd", the public probably didn't know that there was a new Robin).

"The public" had 36 hours to vote after the comic arrived in stores. That's not very long to drum up awareness of what's going on or to make normal people care enough to vote. No way. Most of the voters must have been regular batman readers or people who at least visited comic shops buying something else. The voters knew it was Jason Todd.

Denny O'Neil's editiorial reign wasn't really good. On one hand he pushed his writers to make Batman darker and darker and grittier and more mature, more alone (and and) (thank god that people like Barr and Grant never really jumped on the psycho-batman bandwagon) and on the other hand he forced the re-introduction of things like Ace the bathound and new characters like Harold and Azrael.

You're crazy, in fact I have trouble believing you're being serious here. Who was a better editor than Denny O'Neil? Name three people who have been more influential to modern Batman, three people who are not Frank Miller or Paul Dini. There's no one. Any writers you pick, they were probably working under Denny.

So. I do not approve the change of Robin into Nightwing, but the result was something good and he was well-replaced. But it wasn't until the 90s that I started to like Nightwing, because he was somehow like the old 70s/80s Batman, the Batman they took away from us and replaced him with a jerk.

Interesting observation. that's puts Nightwing in new light for me. Likewise with Croc being the first Bane, good call. But I think Croc was cool enough to bring back post Crisis, don't you. What's not too like?

the underrated #424 which was one of the highlights of what I enjoyed about him. Which is how they added elements of the golden age Batman in certain respectsto his character and seeing the modern Batman and his family reacting to these elements . I think if it continued it could've led to many interesting stories down the line too bad most fans seemed so inclined on hating Robin they didn't even help give it a chance to really blossom.

what elements are you talking about? I don't think i know this issue

 

[Cain]

You're crazy, in fact I have trouble believing you're being serious here. Who was a better editor than Denny O'Neil? Name three people who have been more influential to modern Batman, three people who are not Frank Miller or Paul Dini. There's no one. Any writers you pick, they were probably working under Denny.

Julie Schwartz was a better editor and just as instrumental to Batman's history as O'Neill was. Hell he's the reason O'Neill and Adams got to work on Batman. I like O'Neill but he's no saint he did give the ok to some bad stuff during his time not just on the bat books but DC books in general.

what elements are you talking about? I don't think i know this issue

He was a brash smart mouth like the golden age Batman also was at times and like him he had no issues with excessive force. This is why when I see people say "post-crisis Jason Todd was a whiner" I don't think they know what they're talking about cause there were many stories were he wasn't whining at all just a lil cocky and uncoventional.

 

[Nepenthes]

I checked I do know that issue. it's with the rapist. yeah I see what you mean though I never connected it to 'Golden Age Batman' ha ha, just a street hood. And no I never really thought of him as whiny either, unless defiant automatically means whiny.

Julie Schwartz I guess you're right on that, maybe I never thought of him like Denny though because Denny was a writer too, he's got a somewhat larger presence. What were some of the other not so cool things Denny did? on batman or in DC

 

[Cain]

What were some of the other not so cool things Denny did? on batman or in DC

Being an influential DC editor throughout the 90's he co-signed a lot of crap ideas like Hal Jordan a character he helped evolve in the past going insane and becoming a villain. As Batman group editor he allowed his bosses to sway away a lot of good talent and also for the character to eventually devolve in a sense by removing the things that make him human.

Batman becoming an infallible paranoid and apathetic ninja who's always making contigency plans and has no time to be Bruce Wayne anymore that was something he had huge influence over. Still I can't fault the man for the classics he has given us never that. "There's No Hope in Crime Alley" for example will always be top 5 of all time to me.

 

[TruerToTheCore]

He may also be the reason why I've always thought that Max Allan Collins is a bad writer. The stories he wrote were really bad, the new Jason Todd, characters like "Mime". But as it seems there was a kind of chaos and problematic communication between the editor and the writing staff at that time.

@Cain: I don't think he was the one who helped to evolve Hal Jordan. Actually he turned him from a fearless test pilot into a one-dimensional authority obeying dumbass, to be educated by the enlighted, liberal Green Arrow. "Parallax" was just the next step. Denny O'Neil sees to have a problem with "superpowered" characters. I will not downplay his achievements, but he owes a lot to Neal Adams. And he doesn't write the characters as they are. He used to alter them. Not in the funny Haney-way or in the way that each writer interprets characters differently, he totally re-creates them. Hell, he made Ditko's Question into a Zen buddhist!

End of the line: I think Denny O'Neil was the wrong man for the role of the editor. Len Wein's reign was better. Okay, he gets one point: He hired Alan Grant.

 

[The Shadow]

What are your feelings on Stan Lee's Just Imagine version of Robin?

 

[Quinzel]

Am i the only one who hates that kid damieon?

or however you spell his name, B-mans son with talia?

 

[Nepenthes]

He's awesome."Show me respect and fight"! He's a little brat that shows up on Batmans door and throws all his plans sideways and Batman can't fix it by punching him in the face. Bruce can be great dad and mentor to fake sons but he can't control his own kid who is a master combatant and assassin at the same age Bruce was when his parents died. I hope Morrison handles him more as a kid and not an adult. Morrison didn't write any of the Damian issues in Resurrection of Ra's Al Ghul and they weren't AS good but you can see how his general dynamic with other characters is pretty sound. and I hope when he becomes Robin he doesn't stop being a brat either.

 

[The Shadow]

I like him.

 

[Quinzel]

I like him.

I didn't hate him in the b-man and son comics, but i hate him when he becomes the new b-man.

But i'm getting off topic, sorry.

I do like nightwing though. I'm not really a big fan of the robins, but i like the whole Nightwing thing.

 

[Majic Walrus]

Am i the only one who hates that kid damieon?

or however you spell his name, B-mans son with talia?

Nah, I hate him. I think that's supposed to be the point though. I think we're supposed to hate him. He's sort of a good-guy but really a bad-guy.

 

[Nepenthes]

ha ha I love this panel. This is literally the first thing Damian says inside Batmans 'home' (a two page spread of the batcave, now that's a loving environment for a child) as well as the first thing he says in that issue. It reminds me of the bit in ASBR where Bruce says to Dick "What? You have a problem with the notion of fighting crime?" ha ha

 

[Dark Victory]

I didn't hate him in the b-man and son comics, but i hate him when he becomes the new b-man.

But i'm getting off topic, sorry.

I do like nightwing though. I'm not really a big fan of the robins, but i like the whole Nightwing thing.

I really doubt he'll be the new batman. He's way too young.

 

[Comics N' Toons]

Being an influential DC editor throughout the 90's he co-signed a lot of crap ideas like Hal Jordan a character he helped evolve in the past going insane and becoming a villain. As Batman group editor he allowed his bosses to sway away a lot of good talent and also for the character to eventually devolve in a sense by removing the things that make him human.

Batman becoming an infallible paranoid and apathetic ninja who's always making contigency plans and has no time to be Bruce Wayne anymore that was something he had huge influence over. Still I can't fault the man for the classics he has given us never that. "There's No Hope in Crime Alley" for example will always be top 5 of all time to me.

i agree he has given us a lot of classic stories, but every writer has their faults... He's 10 times the writer than some of the crap we have post 2000.

He also did that really slick The Question series way back when too. & his work on The Shadow? Forget about it!

my hats off to Denny! For all the fact that he gave us ARKHAM ASYLUM, Ra's Al Ghul etc.

plus he's worked w/ legends that today's younger talent probably hasn't even heard of...

WAY TO GO mr. oneil

 

[66 Face]

As an older fan I really can't stand what DC's done with Batman over the past 10 years and I quit collecting 5 years ago. I'll still go back and read the classics or even anything by Loeb or Brubaker but as for issue for issue forget it.

I'm hearing Dini's getting the character right. Is that true???

 

[Comics N' Toons]

Dini gets everything right w/ Batman... and he uses most f the Rogue's Gallery more than any other author I can think of...

 

[Cain]

@Cain: I don't think he was the one who helped to evolve Hal Jordan.

Actually he turned him from a fearless test pilot into a one-dimensional authority obeying dumbass, to be educated by the enlighted, liberal Green Arrow.

What he actually did was take the same fearless test pilot and make him more synonamous with the people of the "real" world. Adding an extra dimension to him. Nothing was changed that's the thing Hal Jordan was still fearless during that period that stuff didn't get retconned till much later.

Just because he was portrayed as a conservative space cop getting reaquainted with his home planet does not make him a dumbass. There were times where Green Arrow was the one who was enlightened and educated by Green Lantern. It wasn't all one-sided and as a reader who sides with bipartisanship it doesn't offend me or anything. I think those are probably some of the most important comics ever in terms of innovation and the way they viewed superheroes as flawed humans like all of us.

Denny O'Neil sees to have a problem with "superpowered" characters.

I somewhat agree though I like what he did with Hal Jordan I think he's more suited for heroes with no powered rings like Green Arrow and Batman. I really don't like his work with Superman and especially Wonder Woman.

And he doesn't write the characters as they are. He used to alter them.

Yes but that's his hook and sometimes works to the benefit of giving thos characters further life (IE: Daredevil, Batman, The Question, Green Arrow). Not that it hasn't failed him too (Superman, Wonder Woman) but he's more hit than miss.

Hell, he made Ditko's Question into a Zen buddhist!

I liked that but maybe more so cause his Question run got me into the character.

End of the line: I think Denny O'Neil was the wrong man for the role of the editor. Len Wein's reign was better. Okay, he gets one point: He hired Alan Grant.

Yeah but he also allowed for him to get fired

 

[Majic Walrus]

I really doubt he'll be the new batman. He's way too young.

Damien is way too young right now but wasn't he put in the DCU equivalent of a Borg Maturation Chamber? I thought Talia said in one of the Batman and Son issues that Damien was growing very rapidly until he hit adolescence. If that's the case I expect him to grow a couple more feet in the next few months.

 

[Majic Walrus]

As an older fan I really can't stand what DC's done with Batman over the past 10 years and I quit collecting 5 years ago. I'll still go back and read the classics or even anything by Loeb or Brubaker but as for issue for issue forget it.

I'm hearing Dini's getting the character right. Is that true???

Dini is by far the best Bat-writer I've read in long time. IMO his recent run is just as good as Loeb's Long Halloween.

 

[Nepenthes]

Dini is by far the best Bat-writer I've read in long time. IMO his recent run is just as good as Loeb's Long Halloween.

eh that's faint praise buddy





joking, if you like it you like it

 

[Majic Walrus]

Well I might have exaggerated just a tad bit.

Seriously though I really do like his stuff alot and I've become a huge fan of his (almost like you and Morrison ).

 

[Cain]

Dini is by far the best Bat-writer I've read in long time. IMO his recent run is just as good as Loeb's Long Halloween.

I think his work on 'tec is superior to TLH in every way then again I'm one of those who feels TLH is severely overrated. He has an understanding of Bruce Wayne/Batman as a character that appeals a whole lot more to me than Loeb's, he's made more interesting uses of the rogues gallery and he's done a much better job in two issues with Loeb's creation (Hush) then Loeb ever did in an entire arc.