The Dark Knight Did the Joker lie?

[MadTownVox]

ya know..If Batman just had a PARTNER, they maybe Harvey AND Rachel could still be alive...

Jes food for thought.

 

[BruceWayne]

OK I'm going to try and jump inside The Joker's head for a minute to answer this one. I really think this may be the one thing The Joker didn't lie about. Like he said, it was a "social experiment." If one group actually chose to kill the others it would prove what he said in the interrogation scene; "When the chips are down, these civilized people will eat each other." That's the theme of all of his crimes; to turn people against each other. Getting the goons to kill each other during the bank robbery, holding the "tryouts" for his organization, sending the citizens of Gotham after Mr. Reese, turning Harvey against Gordon and Batman, almost tricking SWAT into slaughtering the hostages, these are all his ways of "introducing a little anarchy" and "upsetting the established order."

If both ferries blew up or if the detonators were switched to blow up their own ferry then the experiment would prove nothing. What the Joker would want is for the people on the guilty boat to survive, at least for a while. He had the detonator for both ferries so maybe after one ferry blew up the other he would call it in to a news station or something to show the people of Gotham what they were capable of, then after everyone knew what went down he would blow up the other ferry. Or better yet, maybe he would have the ferry turn back towards Gotham to dock and then let the people of Gotham- the people whose loved ones had just been killed- deal with the "winners." We saw that people were willing to kill Reese so imagine what the scene would have been like when the ferry docked. That would have been true anarchy.

It would still prove something. If indeed he lied about the triggers being for the opposite boat, then the people would think they were going to blow up the other. If their own boat blew up, you'd still know who the "less that civilized" people were...they would just be all dead and the opposite boat would be blamed. No one would know except for the Joker. I think this would have happened mirroring what he did to Batman by telling him the wrong addresses for Rachel and Harvey.

 

[GhostPoet]

ya know..If Batman just had a PARTNER, they maybe Harvey AND Rachel could still be alive...

Jes food for thought.

You mean a brightly colored side-kick who's name couldn't threaten a worm?

 

[DACrowe]

The Joker was telling the truth on the boat situation as he wanted the killers to live what they did and for the world to know so he could say "see, everyone is just like me." That is why he was so disappointed.

 

[BruceWayne]

The Joker was telling the truth on the boat situation as he wanted the killers to live what they did and for the world to know so he could say "see, everyone is just like me." That is why he was so disappointed.

Again, it would still work if he had lied about the boats. Instead of "see, everyone is just like me", it would be "see, everyone is just like me...and now they're dead HAHAHAHAHAHA". It would be the ultimate joke...they end up killing themselves with the intention of killing the others on the boat. Then the other boat would be to blame because everyone thought they pulled the trigger...no one would know. Hilarity ensues...

 

[DACrowe]

But I think he was serious about this being a "social experiment" and wanted Gotham to see it eat itself alive and it would work better for his point this way. The movie gave no indication that he was lying to the boats.

 

[MMoralN10Tion]

ya know..If Batman just had a PARTNER, they maybe Harvey AND Rachel could still be alive...

Jes food for thought.

No.

 

[BruceWayne]

But I think he was serious about this being a "social experiment" and wanted Gotham to see it eat itself alive and it would work better for his point this way. The movie gave no indication that he was lying to the boats.

You would still have the same results of the "social experiment". You would know which group of people gave in because they went BOOM. The blame would be shifted on the other group on the opposite boat and no one would know except the Joker what really happened. I can totally see the Joker pulling this...it ends up being a joke on everyone.

 

[bgates87]

It would still prove something. If indeed he lied about the triggers being for the opposite boat, then the people would think they were going to blow up the other. If their own boat blew up, you'd still know who the "less that civilized" people were...they would just be all dead and the opposite boat would be blamed. No one would know except for the Joker. I think this would have happened mirroring what he did to Batman by telling him the wrong addresses for Rachel and Harvey.

I don't think so, if the switch blew up their own ferry then the only people who would know the truth would be dead and everyone would have to just take The Joker's word for it that they were really trying to blow up the other ferry. It would still be effective but not as effective because if The Joker had lied about switching the detonators then whose to say he isn't be lying again and that he didn't actually just blow up one of the ferries for the hell of it? The best way to prove what really went down in my opinion would be to let the people who did it live as evidence.

 

[BruceWayne]

I don't think so, if the switch blew up their own ferry then the only people who would know the truth would be dead and everyone would have to just take The Joker's word for it that they were really trying to blow up the other ferry. It would still be effective but not as effective because if The Joker had lied about switching the detonators then whose to say he isn't be lying again and that he didn't actually just blow up one of the ferries for the hell of it? The best way to prove what really went down in my opinion would be to let the people who did it live as evidence.

But he was about to blow up the ferries anyway, so what difference would it make?

 

[bgates87]

ya know..If Batman just had a PARTNER, they maybe Harvey AND Rachel could still be alive...

Jes food for thought.

I would have loved to see them tease us with Robin, have a little boy in red and green pajamas be one of the hostages dressed as a clown in the final scene and when Batman frees him he follows him and tries to help. Then when they reach the top The Joker sicks the dogs on Batman and goes and beats the living hell out of the little boy with the crowbar until he's nothing but a bloody pile of broken bones and torn flesh. That would be an awesome Robin cameo!

 

[bgates87]

But he was about to blow up the ferries anyway, so what difference would it make?

I think that was just his last resort in case they didn't try to blow each other up. I think that if one had blown up the other then he would've let them live, let the angry family members of the people who died on the other boat deal with them.

 

[Majic Walrus]

ya know..If Batman just had a PARTNER, they maybe Harvey AND Rachel could still be alive...

Jes food for thought.

If Batman had a partner he would've gotten captured by the Joker instead of Harvey and Rachel.

 

[chaseter]

The Joker lied because he wanted Harvey to live and knew Rachel would die because Batman couldn't get to her. He wanted Harvey to live with the death of Rachel and become bitter. Joker also knew that Batman had a thing for Rachel and with Rachel dying, you get 2 bitter men that will do rash things after loosing a loved one.

 

[The Nose Goblin]

Here's my take on this issue.

The Joker is a liar. The ultimate liar in fact. He showed that pretty clearly with his scars story.

And after that he lied about the locations of Harvey and Rachel.

I believe he also lied to Harvey in the hospital (or gave him loaded information).

And yet, he can still be a man of his word.

You know why? Because "the only way to live is without rules". He is chaos incarnate.

All he cares about his his plan. As he says, "Its not about money, its about sending a message."

As for the the ferry, I personally believe that both ferries were supposed to blow up. I believe the two 'detonators' would only work after 'both' keys had turned. I have no evidence to support this, just a feeling.

 

[BruceWayne]

Here's my take on this issue.

The Joker is a liar. The ultimate liar in fact. He showed that pretty clearly with his scars story.

And after that he lied about the locations of Harvey and Rachel.

I believe he also lied to Harvey in the hospital (or gave him loaded information).

And yet, he can still be a man of his word.

You know why? Because "the only way to live is without rules". He is chaos incarnate.

All he cares about his his plan. As he says, "Its not about money, its about sending a message."

As for the the ferry, I personally believe that both ferries were supposed to blow up. I believe the two 'detonators' would only work after 'both' keys had turned. I have no evidence to support this, just a feeling.

Same with me...I just have a feeling they were rigged to blow up their own boat.

 

[danger]

I think he was trying to prove the point he made to Two-Face about how humans put a price on other people depending on who we perceive them to be, thus, thinking one person is not worth as much as another. For example, if we hear a gangbanger died or soilders died, it would be like "eh..." but once a mayor, or even a doctor/lawyer is threatened, well because we perceive them as being more important then we don't care. I think that's the point he was trying to prove, about how society will judge others, which is exactly what the "innocent" citizens on the ferri said: "They had their chance already!"

i disagree with this to an extent. it's not about the importance of people that determines who dies, it's normalcy vs. anarchy. it's normal for gangbangers to get shot or a truckload of soldiers to die, and people are used to it. thus being part of the plan. but you throw anarchy into it, killing a mayor or police commissioner, then chaos ensues.

 

[lambson804]

http://cdn2.libsyn.com/creativescre...40&nva=20080724210640&t=08c4f2fd709de1e7094ad


This is a screenwriters interview with John Nolan..it's posted in another thread, but it mentions that the "save Rachel or Dent" thing was switched around

 

[Robin91939]

Well, the first is definitely a subtle touch and I'm positive that many people were confused, but yes, the Joker definitely lied and I'm sure they could've added in a line somewhere that dealt with that, but ya know.

and for the ferry deal, it's never revealed, but I'm sure that he lied about that too.

-TNC

Batman: It's not that simple...with the Joker it never is.

-R

 

[Doc Samson]

I think the Joke definitely didnt lie about the ferries, but I believe he was anticipating the civilians blowing up the inmates, to further illustrate his point. You can even hear it in the way he describes them "or is it going to be the sweet little innocent civilians" or something to that effect. He basically probably figured that, just like they almost did, the civilians would undervalue the life of an inmate over their own, thus becoming a killer just like them.

Just like he said to Dent, if he were to kill a gangbanger, nobody would care because it's all part of the plan, or rather, nobody in society feels bad for that type of person when a tragedy happens to them. But because we hold a politician, or public figure, to a higher moral standard (no matter how bad of a person they may actually be behind close doors) well then "everybody loses their minds!"

 

[Majic Walrus]

I think the Joke definitely didnt lie about the ferries, but I believe he was anticipating the civilians blowing up the inmates, to further illustrate his point. You can even hear it in the way he describes them "or is it going to be the sweet little innocent civilians" or something to that effect. He basically probably figured that, just like they almost did, the civilians would undervalue the life of an inmate over their own, thus becoming a killer just like them.

Just like he said to Dent, if he were to kill a gangbanger, nobody would care because it's all part of the plan, or rather, nobody in society feels bad for that type of person when a tragedy happens to them. But because we hold a politician, or public figure, to a higher moral standard (no matter how bad of a person they may actually be behind close doors) well then "everybody loses their minds!"

I agree however I don't think the Joker would have stopped there. I definately think he would've blown up the "sweet little innocent" civilians at midnight regardless of them blowing up the inmates.

 

[co2]

Man I feel stupid. I watched the movie again for a 2nd time yesterday and caught a couple little things that I must have missed the first time around. The movie has a lot of things going on... I guess that's possible.

One thing that I completely missed (and believe it or not I'm typically a very attentive movie-watcher) was the scene where the Joker tells Batman the locations of Rachel and Harvey. Joker tells Batman he must "choose" which one lives. As Batman runs out, Gordon asks him, "Which one are you going for?!" and Batman shouts, "Rachel!". Since Gordon showed up at Rachel's funeral and Batman showed up to save Harvey... the Joker obviously lied to Batman and forced him to save the one he didn't care about as much. I felt like an idiot for missing that bit. When I watched it the first time, I just assumed he was saving Harvey, because he realized that Harvey mattered more to the city than Rachel and that it was a terribly hard decision he HAD to make. In reality, Batman was mislead. (Unless you want to imagine that Batman was one step ahead and anticipated that the Joker would switch the addresses in an attempt to purposely mislead Batman... but I wouldn't go there)

So that makes me wonder about the Ferry scene. This probably has already been brought up before... but he told the passengers that their detonators would cause the "rival" ferry to blow up. Joker is a pretty twisted dude. I'm assuming he lied. Had either ship flipped the switch, they probably would have just been blowing themselves up. And maybe that unspoken possibility was enough to make each ferry hesitant to do the deed. You can't trust a psychopathic madman... In fact, when I first watched the movie I thought that was going to happen. I though when the big black prisoner flipped the switch, we'd see that entire ferry explode.

I mentioned this exact thing in another thread, and I agree with you for the same reason you cited above. That would be such a Joker move to have given each ferry their own detonator. When I saw the film for the first time I was almost positive that was going to happen if someone flipped their switch.

 

[ddm92392]

me too and as for the locations that was a switch to my knowledge but to look at it from a movie standpoint Rachel was a character for the movie Harvey had a destiny she could have lived but odds are if he were to save her instead then it would have kinda messed up the story

 

[co2]

You would still have the same results of the "social experiment". You would know which group of people gave in because they went BOOM. The blame would be shifted on the other group on the opposite boat and no one would know except the Joker what really happened. I can totally see the Joker pulling this...it ends up being a joke on everyone.

yup. It would have that effect. As well...have you ever pulled a joke or prank on someone, simply to entertain yourself? That's how he would have viewed it.

 

[Figs]

I don't think he lied because the joke was on Batman. He wanted to show that "when the chips are down, these civilized people, they'll eat eachother." Why would you want all those people who decided to blow up the other ferry dead? The Joker wants people like that in his world, why would he leave the boat who didn't act alive?

Because he's the Joker and it would be a twisted joke within an already twisted game of his.

Personally, I know this can't be proven but I'm of the opinion that the detonators would blow up that boat and not the opposite one.

As long as one of the boats blew up...Joker's point was made/proven.