Discussion: Global Warming, Emission Standards, and Other Environmental Issues

What is your opinion of climate change?

  • Yes it is real and humanity is causing it.

  • Yes it is real but part of a natural cycle.

  • It is real but is both man made and a natural cycle.

  • It's a complete scam made to make money.

  • I dont know or care.

  • Yes it is real and humanity is causing it.

  • Yes it is real but part of a natural cycle.

  • It is real but is both man made and a natural cycle.

  • It's a complete scam made to make money.

  • I dont know or care.


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This...is....hilarious. Do they actually believe this? The human ego is fascinating to observe. "Computer models" again...:rolleyes: (Yep...this is also all based on models)

Also interesting how they didn't point out that neither Katrina or Sandy were particularly strong storms. I guess that would not spin the story properly.
Offshore wind farms could slow cyclones, say scientists
AFP FEBRUARY 27, 2014 7:41AM

HUGE offshore wind farms can protect vulnerable coastal cities against devastating cyclones by tempering winds and ocean surges before they reach land, a study says.

Had such installations existed at the time, Hurricane Katrina, which ravaged New Orleans in 2005, and Sandy, which smashed the coastlines of New York and New Jersey in 2012, would have been reduced to strong but not devastating winds, it said.

“The little turbines can fight back the beast,” said Cristina Archer, an associate professor of Earth sciences at the University of Delaware.

The study, published in the journal Nature Climate Change, is the first to demonstrate that wind farms, deployed on a grand scale, can buffer violent hurricanes, the researchers said.

The team simulated the impact from farms of tens of thousands of turbines, placed kilometres offshore and along the coast of cyclone-vulnerable cities.

“We found that when wind turbines are present, they slow down the outer rotation winds of a hurricane,” said Mark Jacobson, a professor of civil and environmental engineering at Stanford University in California.

“This feeds back to decrease wave height, which reduces movement of air toward the centre of the hurricane, increasing the central pressure — which in turn slows the winds of the entire hurricane and dissipates it faster.”

In the case of Hurricane Katrina, sustained peak wind speed would have been reduced by as much as 44 metres a second.

The storm blew maximum gusts, but not sustained peaks, of about 282km/h, according to the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA), a US government agency.

Katrina's storm surge — waves whipped up by the exceptional winds — would have abated by up to 79 per cent, said the study.

In the case of Sandy, the model projected a drop of up to 140km/h in sustained peak wind speed and a 34 per cent decrease in storm surge.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...s-say-scientists/story-e6frg6so-1226839353697
 
An indicator of how environmentalism works. We care about the environment when things are going well for us. But during times of economic hardship (our modern version of that) those concerns drop to the bottom of the list. The very thing environmentalists hate (human prosperity) is the only thing which allows them to exist at all.

It also may indicate people have been paying attention to what the doomsayers have been saying for the past 25 years and have noticed how wrong the predictions were. Plus the ever escalating "doom" typified by more dire and hysterical warnings may be wearing thin as well.

Climate Change Not a Top Worry in U.S.
U.S. concerns with the quality of the environment dropped in 2014
by Rebecca Riffkin
This article is the first in a series that will analyze Gallup's latest March update on Americans' views on climate change and examine how these views have changed over time. The series will explore public opinion on the severity and importance of climate change, its causes and effects, the extent of Americans' understanding of the issue, and much more.

WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Twenty-eight U.S. senators held an all-night "talkathon" Monday to call attention to climate change, an issue that only 24% of Americans say they worry about a great deal. This puts climate change, along with the quality of the environment, near the bottom of a list of 15 issues Americans rated in Gallup's March 6-9 survey. The economy, federal spending, and healthcare dominate Americans' worries.



http://www.gallup.com/poll/167843/climate-change-not-top-worry.aspx

Lest anyone think this is only a US phenomenon....same thing in Europe:



http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/eb/eb80/eb80_first_en.pdf

AGW proponents are in a bit of a panic. They of course look down upon the public and think they have to dumb down the message to get everyone "concerned" again:

Public apathy on climate change is a cause for celebration, not concern

The executive secretary of the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change, Christiana Figueres, has said scientists and UN officials should stop using "weirdo words" when talking about climate change. By talking in scientific jargon and using acronyms that fly over the heads of Joe and Josephine Public, the climate-change lobby is bamboozling rather than enlightening the masses, she said. Panicked that the public switches off – or more likely sinks into a coma – whenever an expert with more PhDs than sense holds forth on climate change, Ms Figueres says climate-change folk are "just not communicating properly".

This alleged crisis of eco-communication, the failure of enviro-experts to make a connection with, far less fire up, the man in the street, weighs heavily on green-leaning minds. In the Guardian this week, an eco-worrier says climate-change activists must try harder to bridge the gap between "the abstruse nature of expert discourse" and people's "ordinary lives" (shortened version: let's find a way to make really complicated stuff understandable to ill-educated folk more used to reading Heat the celebrity magazine than Heat the George Monbiot book).

All sorts of green groups have come up with communication strategies to address what they view as the public's apathy ("indolence of mind": OED) on all matters climatic. Some of the strategies are gob-droppingly patronising. One, titled Communicating Climate Change to Mass Public Audiences, published by the Climate Change Advisory Group, says the masses are likely to feel "sad or angry" when told the economy and their own personal wealth cannot keep growing forever. They will experience "painful emotions of grief for a society that must undergo changes" and they might even adopt "maladaptive coping strategies", such as "denial of responsibility, blaming others, or becoming apathetic". And it falls to the eco-enlightened to help the moronic masses through these feelings and encourage them to shift towards "pro-environmental behaviour". In this reading, the green lobby is Oprah and the dumb public are just so many basket cases plonked on its couch, waiting to have their frazzled minds re-educated with eco-conscious ideas.

It's not surprising that greenies are racking their brains over how best to communicate with the public, because even though they've been banging on about climate-change disaster for 20-plus years now, most people just aren't interested. We're certainly not very moved. Last year, a survey of people in 22 countries, including Britain, found that "fewer people now consider [climate change] to be 'very serious' than at any time in the last two decades". "The public are starting to tune out", said the poll overseer. Greens have come up with some quite offensive explanations for this tuning out. Al Gore says the public response to climate change is no longer "modulated by logic, reason or reflective thought" – that is, we're irrational. The Ecologist magazine says the public has responded to warnings of climate change with "self-deception and mass denial" – in short, we're irrational. Leo Hickman of the World Wide Fund for Nature has said that too much of the public is now a "baying and growing crowd… resistant to the prospect of ever having to alter their lifestyle" – yep, we're irrational.

All this talk about how to prise open the public's eyes to the dangers of climate change – and to their own idiocy and greed – exposes the elitism of the eco-brigade. For all the climate-change lobby's claims to be rationalist, what we really have here is a new priestly caste convinced that it knows The Truth and that it must endeavour to communicate that truth in dumbed-down lingo, free of "weirdo words", to the sinning little people. But has the public really tuned out from eco matters because it doesn't understand them, because it is perplexed by "expert discourse"? I don't think so. I think the reason people are switching off from the enviro-agenda is because they disagree with it. They just don't buy the idea that capping carbon emissions is the most important thing in the world, more important than growing the economy, increasing wealth, and being free to choose to live in a big house with the heaters permanently switched on and Tesco just a short 4×4 drive away. They see the mean-minded, sacrifice-demanding politics of being green as a challenge to the thing that has motored human communities for millennia – the desire to create a world of plenty, an overflowing "land of milk and honey", a utopia filled with stuff and comfort – and they don't like it.
Environmentalism is, by its own admission, a campaign against the public and our historic desire for more things and freedom. George Monbiot has stated this baldly. Environmentalism is "a campaign not for abundance but for austerity", he says. "It is a campaign not for more freedom but for less… it is a campaign not just against other people, but against ourselves." And that is precisely how most people experience environmentalism – as an extraordinarily elitist drive to reprimand and possibly even punish the people for daring to want more; as a top-down, hectoring effort to make us acclimatise to austerity and give up on that age-old dream of a "great production that will supply all, and more than all the people can consume" (Sylvia Pankhurst). If environmentalism is a "campaign against people", then it makes perfect sense that the people bristle at it, even hate it and deny its "truths".

People want wealth and comfort, not only for themselves but for others, too. They are unmoved by the campaign against climate change not because of its "weirdo words" or complicated ideas, but because it is at root an elitist mission to convince us that our material desires are destroying the planet. Far from being irrational, the mass public apathy towards climate change that so freaks out eco-experts is entirely sensible and logical; in fact, it renews my faith in humankind.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/b...hange-is-a-cause-for-celebration-not-concern/
 
http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/30/world/un-climate-report/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Your forecast for the next century: Hotter, drier and hungrier, and the chance to turn down the thermostat is slipping away.

That's the latest conclusion from the United Nations, which urged governments to address the "increasingly clear" threats posed by a warming climate before some options are closed off for good. The latest report from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change concluded that taking steps to reduce the carbon dioxide emissions blamed for rising temperatures could buy more time to adjust to a warmer world.

Cutting emissions now "increases the time available for adaptation to a particular level of climate change," the report states. But it adds, "Delaying mitigation actions may reduce options for climate-resilient pathways in the future."

"In many cases, we are not prepared for the climate-related risks that we already face," Vicente Barros, the co-chaiman of the IPCC working group behind the document, said in a statement accompanying the report. "Investments in better preparation can pay dividends both for the present and for the future."
 
If you've got a half hour, this is an instructive discussion with 3 scientists about climate change. You can see they don't all agree on things and that they are not the ones promoting the alarmist message.

All three would be a part of the loudly touted "consensus" since they all agree the earth has warmed over the last century and that mankind has contributed to that. But none of them are part of the claimed consensus....that "we are doomed unless we act now". I've almost never seen a scientist agree with the alarmist position.

http://iai.tv/video/what-we-dont-know-about-co2
 
This is a funny example of "doom" prior to the CAGW scare. It was 1982...but it sounds exactly the same. We were told that we "must take action now or we are doomed!". Supposedly it was going to be "too late" by the year 2000. Don't know if this is a part of the same movement dressed in different clothes or just a statement about how we embrace apocalyptic thinking. Not surprisingly, it comes from the UN. :woot: They really don't change much except the dates on their "doom", do they?

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=o5tlAAAAIBAJ&sjid=TYwNAAAAIBAJ&pg=5103,351973
 
Your forecast for the next century: Hotter, drier and hungrier, and the chance to turn down the thermostat is slipping away.

That's the latest conclusion from the United Nations, which urged governments to address the "increasingly clear" threats posed by a warming climatebefore some options are closed off for good. The latest report from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change concluded that taking steps to reduce the carbon dioxide emissions blamed for rising temperatures could buy more time to adjust to a warmer world.

Cutting emissions now "increases the time available for adaptation to a particular level of climate change," the report states. But it adds, "Delaying mitigation actions may reduce options for climate-resilient pathways in the future."

"In many cases, we are not prepared for the climate-related risks that we already face," Vicente Barros, the co-chaiman of the IPCC working group behind the document, said in a statement accompanying the report. "Investments in better preparation can pay dividends both for the present and for the future."

When will the opportunity finally slip away? I hope it's soon.

"the United Nations, which urged governments to address the "increasingly clear" threats"

How much money does that translate to, and will China join the US and Europe in the fight against "climate change"? :o

Fox News host Elisabeth Hasselbeck on Thursday morning declared that climate change was just another “product” being “sold” to the American people, which might explain why a recent study found that the network was wrong about the subject 72 percent of the time.

http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warmin...ble-news-coverage-climate-change-science.html

More than half of Fox's misleading coverage (53%) was from one program, The Five, where the hosts often instigated misleading debates about established climate science. In general, Fox hosts and guests were more likely than those of other networks to disparage the study of climate science and criticize scientists.

Even though climate science is not completely understood and/or theoretical, It's apparently considered "misleading" to question or disagree - according to this group of scientists.

This "study" also cited MSNBC as being accurate 92% of the time.. that's all I needed to know...
 
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This Is the Simplest Explanation of Climate Change You'll Ever See

[YT]ztWHqUFJRTs[/YT]

Climate change is one of the most complex areas of scientific study out there, causing physicists, chemists and meteorologists alike to scratch their heads—so it's understandable that the rest of us find it a little difficult to grasp. But this video is your best chance yet of understanding the topic.

Imagine our atmosphere as a massive games of Tetris, where the blocks are molecules of carbon dioxide. As the games progresses, the screen fills up, and you're unable to get rid of the blocks quickly enough. That's exactly what's happening to our atmosphere, as we create more and more CO2 to fill the air above us—and if the screen fills up, it's game over. Only, unlike a game of Tetris, we can't start over.

Hope this clears up any confusion for those that don't think it's real
 
This Is the Simplest Explanation of Climate Change You'll Ever See

[YT]ztWHqUFJRTs[/YT]



Hope this clears up any confusion for those that don't think it's real

It won't, because they don't want facts.
 
When will the opportunity finally slip away? I hope it's soon.
The UN keeps moving that goalpost. It was originally "too late to act" in 2000.

A senior U.N. environmental official says entire nations could be wiped off the face of the Earth by rising sea levels if the global warming trend is not reversed by the year 2000. Coastal flooding and crop failures would create an exodus of "eco-refugees," threatening political chaos, said Noel Brown, director of the New York office of the United Nations U.N. Environment Program, or UNEP. He said governments have a 10-year window of opportunity to solve the problem.

Published on July 5, 1989, Page 2E, Miami Herald, The (FL)


That's how it works with doomsday prophets. Their predictions never come true....so they just move everything to a later date.
floreairfoot said:
http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warmin...ble-news-coverage-climate-change-science.html

Even though climate science is not completely understood and/or theoretical, It's apparently considered "misleading" to question or disagree - according to this group of scientists.

This "study" also cited MSNBC as being accurate 92% of the time.. that's all I needed to know...
Bingo. Some of their "scientists" are pretty comical too.

Apparently it's not inaccurate to claim things like a "97% consensus" and claim "the science is settled" when we don't even understand how the climate works.
 
There is no empirical evidence that humans are causing global warming.

It's a theory.. I'm sorry.
You do understand that the two statements you've made here are actually contradictory, don't you? You should probably at least TRY to understand the definitions of words (in the proper context) before vomiting them onto the internet.
 
You do understand that the two statements you've made here are actually contradictory, don't you? You should probably at least TRY to understand the definitions of words (in the proper context) before vomiting them onto the internet.

Not at all, we're talking about humans causing global warming, not natural global warming.
 
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Not at all, we're talking about humans causing global warming, not natural global warming.
"No empirical evidence"

"It's a theory"

^ Spelled it out for you. :yay:

Do yourself a favor and take the time to learn the definition of "theory" in the scientific context. Then you can avoid these embarrassing flubs in the future.
 
I was in a good mood, than I dipped into this thread and tasted the raw, ignorant denial.

On this evidence, humanity doesn't deserve to survive.
 
I was in a good mood, than I dipped into this thread and tasted the raw, ignorant denial.

On this evidence, humanity doesn't deserve to survive.

We probably won't. If we cut emissions by 80%, we could start to slow it down, but that's not even a possibility because, you know, the economy is more important than survival.
 
Hell, we still fight about evolution being real, which is akin to fighting that the world is round.
 
I was in a good mood, than I dipped into this thread and tasted the raw, ignorant denial.

On this evidence, humanity doesn't deserve to survive.
We won't. 99% of all species who have ever existed on this planet have gone extinct. We aren't special. We will go away too. (Of course our egos demand that we now take credit for anything that goes extinct...including ourselves of course)

Hell, we still fight about evolution being real, which is akin to fighting that the world is round.
I believe in evolution personally, but there are debatable points on the theory. The best thing about that theory is that people are normally allowed to question it without being called names.


Meanwhile...

Top climate expert's sensational claim of government meddling in crucial UN report

A top US academic has dramatically revealed how government officials forced him to change a hugely influential scientific report on climate change to suit their own interests. Harvard professor Robert Stavins electrified the worldwide debate on climate change on Friday by sensationally publishing a letter online in which he spelled out the astonishing interference. He said the officials, representing ‘all the main countries and regions of the world’ insisted on the changes in a late-night meeting at a Berlin conference centre two weeks ago. Three quarters of the original version of the document ended up being deleted.

Prof Stavins claimed the intervention amounted to a serious ‘conflict of interest’ between scientists and governments. His revelation is significant because it is rare for climate change experts to publicly question the process behind the compilation of reports on the subject. Prof Stavins, Harvard’s Professor of Business and Government, was one of two ‘co-ordinating lead authors’ of a key report published by the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) earlier this month. His chapter of the 2,000-page original report concerned ways countries can co-operate to reduce carbon emissions.

IPCC reports are supposed to be scrupulously independent as they give scientific advice to governments around the world to help them shape energy policies – which in turn affect subsidies and domestic power bills.
Prof Stavins said the government officials in Berlin fought to make big changes to the full report’s ‘summary for policymakers’. This is the condensed version usually cited by the world’s media and politicians. He said their goal was to protect their ‘negotiating stances’ at forthcoming talks over a new greenhouse gas reduction treaty.

Prof Stavins told The Mail on Sunday yesterday that he had been especially concerned by what happened at a special ‘contact group’. He was one of only two scientists present, surrounded by ‘45 or 50’ government officials.
He said almost all of them made clear that ‘any text that was considered inconsistent with their interests and positions in multilateral negotiations was treated as unacceptable.’
Many of the officials were themselves climate negotiators, facing the task of devising a new treaty to replace the Kyoto Protocol in negotiations set to conclude next year. Prof Stavins said: ‘This created an irreconcilable conflict of interest. It has got to the point where it would be reasonable to call the document a summary by policymakers, not a summary for them, and it certainly affects the credibility of the IPCC. The process ought to be reformed.’
He declined to say which countries had demanded which changes, saying only that ‘all the main countries and regions were represented’. Some deletions were made at the insistence of only one or two nations – because under IPCC rules, the reports must be unanimous.
He revealed the original draft of the summary contained a lot of detail on how international co-operation to curb emissions might work, and how it could be funded. The final version contains only meaningless headings, however, with all details removed.

IPCC reports are supposed to be scrupulously independent as they give scientific advice to governments around the world to help them shape energy policies - which in turn affect subsidies and domestic power bills
His comments follow a decision two weeks earlier by Sussex University’s Professor Richard Tol to remove his name from the summary of an earlier volume of the full IPCC report, on the grounds it had been ‘sexed up’ by the same government officials and had become overly ‘alarmist’.

Prof Stavins’ letter provoked a response from Bob Ward, policy director of the London School of Economics’ Grantham Institute and a fierce critic of those who dissent from climate change orthodoxy. Mr Ward asked on Twitter whether it showed the ‘IPCC government approval process is broken’.
Yesterday he admitted the affair showed that ‘the IPCC is not a perfect process, though it’s hard to imagine a better one’.
Prof Judith Curry, the head of climate science at the Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta, said that between them, Professors Tol and Stavins had shown the process was ‘polluted by obvious politics’.

The IPCC headquarters in Geneva could not be reached for comment.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...im-government-meddling-crucial-UN-report.html
 
That doesn't really tell us much, other than that national governments do not like to have road maps drawn up by independent experts, which we all knew.
 
I wonder if everyone on all sides of this debate can be excited about this? (I hope so...otherwise I question if they have an agenda)

The UK will be the first to break even with fusion power, leading us towards a future of clean, infinite energy

The world’s best fusion reactor, situated in the heart of the merry, Hobbit-inspiring motherland of Oxfordshire in England, will soon attempt to become the first fusion power experiment to surpass the mythical “break-even” point. This experiment, known as the Joint European Torus (JET), has held the world record for fusion reactor efficiency since 1997 despite the USA’s recent laser-based fusion experiments at the National Ignition Facility. If JET can reach break-even point, there’s a very good chance that the massive ITER reactor currently being built in France will be able to obtain the holy grail of everlasting green power generation: self-sustaining fusion.

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...-us-towards-a-future-of-clean-infinite-energy
 
That doesn't really tell us much, other than that national governments do not like to have road maps drawn up by independent experts, which we all knew.
The problem is when some people claim the Summary for Policymakers is a scientific document containing the words of scientists.

It's not.
 
The article you posted did not suggest that the "science" had been diluted or polluted by politicians: it suggested that the solutions suggested by the experts had been redacted, in order to prevent them from interfering with any supranational negotiations that may ensue. That is inevitable, and the lesson is probably that the remit of the scientists in such scenarios should be more clearly defined.
 
The article you posted did not suggest that the "science" had been diluted or polluted by politicians: it suggested that the solutions suggested by the experts had been redacted, in order to prevent them from interfering with any supranational negotiations that may ensue. That is inevitable, and the lesson is probably that the remit of the scientists in such scenarios should be more clearly defined.

You ever get tired of this? I'm so exhausted with debating the delusional.
 
"No empirical evidence"

"It's a theory"

^ Spelled it out for you. :yay:

Do yourself a favor and take the time to learn the definition of "theory" in the scientific context. Then you can avoid these embarrassing flubs in the future.

There's a difference between empirical evidence and a theory.. I don't know what else I can say.

Hell, we still fight about evolution being real, which is akin to fighting that the world is round.

Fact vs Theory

One can be observed and proven.. the other can not (yet).

I was in a good mood, than I dipped into this thread and tasted the raw, ignorant denial.

On this evidence, humanity doesn't deserve to survive.

We probably won't. If we cut emissions by 80%, we could start to slow it down, but that's not even a possibility because, you know, the economy is more important than survival.

You ever get tired of this? I'm so exhausted with debating the delusional.

Debate? How can we debate you when we're mocked for disagreeing with you?

It's as if we've blasphemed against your god. :o
 
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