Discussion: Global Warming, Emission Standards, and Other Environmental Issues

What is your opinion of climate change?

  • Yes it is real and humanity is causing it.

  • Yes it is real but part of a natural cycle.

  • It is real but is both man made and a natural cycle.

  • It's a complete scam made to make money.

  • I dont know or care.

  • Yes it is real and humanity is causing it.

  • Yes it is real but part of a natural cycle.

  • It is real but is both man made and a natural cycle.

  • It's a complete scam made to make money.

  • I dont know or care.


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From 1962...an example of "doom thinking". I know Schulz was mocking that attitude here, but it shows you how we've always thought "everything is getting worse all the time!"

pe_c090819.jpg
 
Not just climate alarmists. All doomsayers base predictions on a reality where nothing ever changes and human ingenuity does not exist.

Human beings are the most adaptable species on the planet. We live in just about every environment on the planet and have adapted to every single problem which has been presented to us over the 200,000 years of our existence. Sea levels have been rising all during that time and we don't even notice. We don't just stand on a beach as water rises over our heads.

That's why Paul R. Ehrlich was so comically wrong with his predictions in the Population Bomb. He refused to factor in human ingenuity. Our ability to grow food advanced dramatically and there is more food than ever before despite a huge increase in population. ...In fact...the fact that the human population has increased is proof he was wrong.....there can never be more people than the earth can support. ...So the entire line of thinking that "more people will doom us" doesn't make sense.

The same attitude has been a part of the "peak oil" predictions over the last 100 years. Over and over and over there are those who keep predicting we are "going to run out of oil soon"....and they have been wrong 100% of the time. Now...I've got no love for oil companies....catch me filling my Corolla with gas some time and you'll see me grumbling about the artificially inflated price. I will embrace a new power source as soon as it arrives. But that doesn't mean I can't see reality with how wind and solar are not ready yet. Part of my problem with environmentalists is how they torpedoed our switch to nuclear power years ago. Fossil fuels should be a small percentage of our energy by now if not for them.

You see that stuff in this thread. Some are actually assuming we won't adapt or advance in the coming years. Seriously? That's what we do. That pretty much defines our species.
1) My impression is that anti-nuclear "environmentalists" are a vocal minority.

2) We don't live in a vacuum. Our ability to adapt is finite, and is at least in part dependent upon ecological factors. The Ehrlich comparison fails to address this fact.

JeetKuneDo said:
...In fact...the fact that the human population has increased is proof he was wrong.....there can never be more people than the earth can support.

3) The bolded statement simply isn't true. This is Ecology 101. The population can exceed carrying capacity, but it will tend to experience a subsequent decline towards that carrying capacity. The severity of this decline depends, at least in part, upon the intrinsic rate of growth of the population - meaning that a subsequent crash is a possibility. Otherwise, it will simply tend to fluctuate around the true carrying capacity (which is not necessarily constant, granted).
 
1) My impression is that anti-nuclear "environmentalists" are a vocal minority.
.

Maybe they are now (I'm not so sure about that though), but that certainly wasn't the case in the '70's and it's why we haven't built a new one in 30 years.
 
Maybe they are now (I'm not so sure about that though), but that certainly wasn't the case in the '70's and it's why we haven't built a new one in 30 years.
Are you implying that a vocal minority can't have a disproportionately large impact on policy?
 
Are you implying that a vocal minority can't have a disproportionately large impact on policy?

Not at all, just saying that I was given no indication that only a vocal minority of environmentalists were opposed to nuclear power, it seemed like a very large contingent. I think that's starting to change now, but I would still think that a majority environmentalists don't exactly embrace nuclear power to this day. CNN did a little documentary on it a few months ago and they had environmentalists on there and they were saying how they angered a lot of their peers by saying that nuclear power is safe and needs to be expanded.
 
1) My impression is that anti-nuclear "environmentalists" are a vocal minority.
Is there an environmental group that embraces nuclear energy?

I know these scientists felt there was a need to write an open letter to environmentalists about changing their minds on nuclear....must be a reason for that.

http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2...p=true&_type=blogs&_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=1

2) We don't live in a vacuum. Our ability to adapt is finite, and is at least in part dependent upon ecological factors. The Ehrlich comparison fails to address this fact.
Since when is our ability to adapt finite? That sounds like doomsday thinking and the reason all the doomsday predictions fail. Reminds me of that quote from the 1800s..."Everything which can be invented has already been invented". (probably not a real quote...but it became well-known nonetheless...and is a great example of how some people think)

There are very few examples of humans failing to adapt. Maybe the Vikings in Greenland after it cooled from the Medieval Warm Period? But they probably just left when it became too cold (and still hasn't warmed up to that point today). Again...we don't just stand there and do nothing.

It's common knowledge that the biggest barrier to adaptation is poverty. Putting cheap energy and wealth out of reach for third-world countries is going to kill millions of people. That's the "What if you're wrong?" question AGW alarmists should be answering. The common "what is the harm?" statement regarding AGW policies ignores that one.

3) The bolded statement simply isn't true. This is Ecology 101. The population can exceed carrying capacity, but it will tend to experience a subsequent decline towards that carrying capacity. The severity of this decline depends, at least in part, upon the intrinsic rate of growth of the population - meaning that a subsequent crash is a possibility. Otherwise, it will simply tend to fluctuate around the true carrying capacity (which is not necessarily constant, granted).
A human being can only live a few days without food. So if a human being exists, it is because the earth is providing a means for that human to exist. It doesn't take long for that human to go away if that situation changes. There can never be "over population". The fact that the human population has increased so much over the last century is a testament to the fact that we have thrived during the modern warming period. Warming is obviously a good thing.
 
Since when is our ability to adapt finite?
Since always. How is this even a question? It's mind-boggling. Do you actually have any comprehension of the concepts of finite/infinite?

JKD said:
That sounds like doomsday thinking and the reason all the doomsday predictions fail. Reminds me of that quote from the 1800s..."Everything which can be invented has already been invented". (probably not a real quote...but it became well-known nonetheless...and is a great example of how some people think)
False equivalencies are fun, aren't they? You seem to be a fan.

JKD said:
There are very few examples of humans failing to adapt. Maybe the Vikings in Greenland after it cooled from the Medieval Warm Period? But they probably just left when it became too cold (and still hasn't warmed up to that point today). Again...we don't just stand there and do nothing.
I really, really hope you can see the flaw in this reasoning. I refuse to believe that you're this obtuse.

JKD said:
It's common knowledge that the biggest barrier to adaptation is poverty. Putting cheap energy and wealth out of reach for third-world countries is going to kill millions of people. That's the "What if you're wrong?" question AGW alarmists should be answering. The common "what is the harm?" statement regarding AGW policies ignores that one.
It's rather amusing to watch you cry alarmism and then, in the next breath, engage in it yourself.

JKD said:
A human being can only live a few days without food. So if a human being exists, it is because the earth is providing a means for that human to exist. It doesn't take long for that human to go away if that situation changes. There can never be "over population".
I'm not going to argue this point with you, because you're simply wrong. This is the kind of thing taught in an introductory ecology course, and I happen to be a biologist with a strong background in ecology. The claim that populations cannot overshoot carrying capacity is simply false.

There's a potentially enormous difference between what can be supported in the short term and what can be supported indefinitely. Carrying capacity - and the concept of overpopulation - are concerned primarily with the latter.

Just so I can gauge whether I can continue this conversation without having to teach you basic concepts in biology and mathematics, just what level of education do you have in either field?

JKD said:
The fact that the human population has increased so much over the last century is a testament to the fact that we have thrived during the modern warming period. Warming is obviously a good thing.
...scratch what I just said. We're going to have to start from the ground-up and work on some basic logic/reasoning. This is just too much.

My introductory biology students took a final assessment on Wednesday which tested their skills in scientific literacy. ^ That is the kind of statement you'd find on the test to serve as a rudimentary example of faulty reasoning.
 
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Since always. How is this even a question? It's mind-boggling. Do you actually have any comprehension of the concepts of finite/infinite?
You are changing the subject. We are all aware of the concepts of finite and infinite.

Since when have humans run out of innovation?
Evo said:
False equivalencies are fun, aren't they? You seem to be a fan.
I am quite fascinated by doomsday thinking. Humans are eaten up with it and we've always been that way. Doomsayers are wrong almost all the time...yet people continue to fall for it again and again. I consider it a basic flaw of the human species. It makes no logical sense to ignore reality and continue to believe in "doom". I assume it is something we will eventually evolve out of if our species lasts long enough.
Evo said:
I really, really hope you can see the flaw in this reasoning. I refuse to believe that you're this obtuse.
Interesting string of non-responses you've put up here. :word:
Evo said:
It's rather amusing to watch you cry alarmism and then, in the next breath, engage in it yourself.
Poverty kills. That is an indisputable fact. Preventing developing countries from achieving prosperity and cheap energy will kill millions. We know this because it happens every day. Poorer countries also are far less able to adapt to climate changes and deal with natural disasters. This isn't a prediction based on a model here.

Nigel Lawson recently put it very well:
"...what moves me most is that the policies invoked in its name are grossly immoral. We have, in the UK, devised the most blatant transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich — and I am slightly surprised that it is so strongly supported by those who consider themselves to be the tribunes of the people and politically on the Left. I refer to our system of heavily subsidising wealthy landlords to have wind farms on their land, so that the poor can be supplied with one of the most expensive forms of electricity known to man."

"...the greatest immorality of all concerns the masses in the developing world. It is excellent that, in so many parts of the developing world — the so-called emerging economies — economic growth is now firmly on the march, as they belatedly put in place the sort of economic policy framework that brought prosperity to the Western world. Inevitably, they already account for, and will increasingly account for, the lion's share of global carbon emissions.

"But, despite their success, there are still hundreds of millions of people in these countries in dire poverty, suffering all the ills that this brings, in terms of malnutrition, preventable disease, and premature death. Asking these countries to abandon the cheapest available sources of energy is, at the very least, asking them to delay the conquest of malnutrition, to perpetuate the incidence of preventable disease, and to increase the numbers of premature deaths."

"Global warming orthodoxy is not merely irrational. It is wicked."
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-...ng-is-Good-Green-Policies-are-Grossly-Immoral
Evo said:
I'm not going to argue this point with you, because you're simply wrong. This is the kind of thing taught in an introductory ecology course, and I happen to be a biologist with a strong background in ecology. The claim that populations cannot overshoot carrying capacity is simply false.

There's a potentially enormous difference between what can be supported in the short term and what can be supported indefinitely. Carrying capacity - and the concept of overpopulation - are concerned primarily with the latter.

Just so I can gauge whether I can continue this conversation without having to teach you basic concepts in biology and mathematics, just what level of education do you have in either field?
You can forget that setup for an Ad Hominen in the last paragraph.

Your logic is flawed. There is no possible way for more humans to exist than can be supported by this planet. It's not complicated. The growth of the human population is proof that more people can be sustained. It's the opposite of what doomsayers claim. They see growing population and cry "doom".

Just how many doomsday predictions on overpopulation are we supposed to believe? You would think the spectacular failure of Ehrlich's Population Bomb would at least cause people to think about it more logically.
Evo said:
...scratch what I just said. We're going to have to start from the ground-up and work on some basic logic/reasoning. This is just too much.

My introductory biology students took a final assessment on Wednesday which tested their skills in scientific literacy. ^ That is the kind of statement you'd find on the test to serve as a rudimentary example of faulty reasoning.
Great...another activist educator trying to foster illogical doomsday thinking in young minds....awesome. :doh:

You seem to think we all have to start from the premise that "warming is bad" and proceed from that point. That's not how science works. Warming must be proven to be a bad thing.

And when the human population has grown so much in the last 100 years....there are reasons why more people can exist. The logical mind sees that those are positive reasons.

pe_c090702.jpg
 
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1) The fact that humans have not yet "run out of innovation" is not evidence that such innovation, and the capacity to adapt (I'm using the word in a very loose sense here), is infinite. This is a critical - and rather obvious - flaw in your reasoning. I am almost stunned that I had to make this so explicit...almost.

2) There was no set up for ad hominem - it's important for me to be able to assess your background in these subjects so that I may build from an appropriate starting point. If you have no experience with logistic equations, for example, and if you have had no exposure to ecological population analysis, then it stands to reason that for any meaningful discussion on the topic to occur, I would need to correct these deficiencies on a very basic level. But you've answered the question without even meaning to at this point. We can discuss these topics further, if you'd like. Rest assured that you are mistaken.

3) I never once suggested that there wouldn't be consequences for enacting the policies in question. I do, however, question your assessment of their severity. You claim that these predictions are not based on models, but they are also not based on any data, from what I can tell. That you feel this should bolster confidence in your predictions is cause for concern, and raises questions about your capacity for basic empirical reasoning.

4) My students have never once discussed anthropogenic climate change with me, and I have not discussed it with them. You've missed the point spectacularly here. You have said:

JKD said:
And when the human population has grown so much in the last 100 years....there are reasons why more people can exist. The logical mind sees that those are positive reasons.

...but have given no consideration to the possibility that this growth has occurred due to reasons other than, and even in spite of, continued warming - which is not at all an unreasonable conclusion, given the multitude of factors at play. Never mind your disregard for the concept of thresholds. You jump to the conclusion that "[w]arming is obviously a good thing," but have provided no empirical support for that conclusion beyond speculative (and spurious) reasoning. This is the reason that such a statement would be considered a prime example of faulty reasoning.

There is no shortage of hypocrisy in your position here, given your supposed preference for a neutral default position. It should be rather obvious to the casual observer of our conversation that you are ill-equipped to discuss this topic in an informed manner. (And yes, THAT is ad hominem - though, given the context of this conversation, entirely relevant.)

Make of that what you will.
 
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1) The fact that humans have not yet "run out of innovation" is not evidence that such innovation, and the capacity to adapt (I'm using the word in a very loose sense here), is infinite. This is a critical - and rather obvious - flaw in your reasoning. I am almost stunned that I had to make this so explicit...almost.
This is a great illustration of the different way we think.

You assume human innovation will cease even though that has never happened while I assume it will continue as it always has.
evo said:
2) There was no set up for ad hominem - it's important for me to be able to assess your background in these subjects so that I may build from an appropriate starting point. If you have no experience with logistic equations, for example, and if you have had no exposure to ecological population analysis, then it stands to reason that for any meaningful discussion on the topic to occur, I would need to correct these deficiencies on a very basic level. But you've answered the question without even meaning to at this point. We can discuss these topics further, if you'd like. Rest assured that you are mistaken.
Impressive arrogance.

The Appeal to Authority and Ad Hominem fallacies don't really work on me though. Everyone is allowed an equal voice whether you like it or not. Elitism doesn't play well with me.

You probably don't even realize that if you were a skeptic you would be attacked for not being a climate scientist. So if you subscribe to typical alarmist arguments, you are not qualified to discuss this topic at all.
evo said:
3) I never once suggested that there wouldn't be consequences for enacting the policies in question. I do, however, question your assessment of their severity. You claim that these predictions are not based on models, but they are also not based on any data, from what I can tell. That you feel this should bolster confidence in your predictions is cause for concern, and raises questions about your capacity for basic empirical reasoning.
It's based on the facts. Poverty kills people. That's not debatable. Policies which hinder developing cultures from achieving wealth will kill people. It's not a guess, it's not a theory, it's a fact based on the way the world works.
evo said:
...but have given no consideration to the possibility that this growth has occurred due to reasons other than, and even in spite of, continued warming - which is not at all an unreasonable conclusion, given the multitude of factors at play. Never mind your disregard for the concept of thresholds. You jump to the conclusion that "[w]arming is obviously a good thing," but have provided no empirical support for that conclusion beyond speculative (and spurious) reasoning. This is the reason that such a statement would be considered a prime example of faulty reasoning.
Point 1: Warming is known to be historically positive for humans. That's common knowledge. Assuming that will be different this time is flawed reasoning...but typical of doom thinking.

Point 2: Obviously 200 years of warming has not had a negative effect on us. We are currently in the greatest period of human advancement on the history of our species. Just the fact that we've doubled our lifespan in the last 150 years is immeasurably positive. Existing twice as long is a miracle for any species. You of course think this will all end and suddenly warming will be a bad thing. Doomsaying thinking. You actually think it's logical to assume the entire history of the modern warming period is an outlier which will now change to fit the "doom". The usual, "Any time now....doom will get here!" stuff that doomsayers have been ladling out for many centuries.

Basically, the "warming is bad" assumption is not based on anything. But alarmists always believe the debate should start from that assumption. It starts with "See? It's warming!". In their minds this proves both that "warming is bad" and "warming is caused by people". The worst scientific thinking imaginable.
evo said:
There is no shortage of hypocrisy in your position here, given your supposed preference for a neutral default position. It should be rather obvious to the casual observer of our conversation that you are ill-equipped to discuss this topic in an informed manner. (And yes, THAT is ad hominem - though, given the context of this conversation, entirely relevant.)

Make of that what you will.
I make you out to be a typical doomsayer. You aren't interested in facts, just politics and attempts to silence dissent. It's been the way of religious fanaticism throughout our history. There is nothing new here.

I don't mind conventional religious doomsayers so much. They are eye-rolling in their thinking...("the world is doomed because of man's sins!") but at least we no longer have to worry about them controlling society with their beliefs. Environmental religious doomsayers are attempting to force their beliefs on everyone and are trying very hard to silence anyone who disagrees. The arrogance and elitism is nauseating to say the least.

Misrepresenting what scientists actually say is the first red-flag here.
 
I think they are actually serious about this. Their really trying to create a situation where no matter what the climate does, it cannot prove the CAGW theory wrong. Zero falsifiability = bad theory
Global warming is 'not uniform': Regions of the planet have actually COOLED over the past 100 years, study claims

Speaking to hundreds of international delegates at the start of a climate gathering in Abu Dhabi, Ban Ki-moon warned that time is running out to reduce harmful emissions and that political leaders need to offer bold commitments to drive meaningful change.
‘If we do not take urgent action, all our plans for increased global prosperity and security will be undone,’ he warned.
There's a new one. :whatever: We've been hearing that one since 1989 at least. (on this subject anyway....we heard it about other things prior to that) "We must act now before it's too late!!" Really? Again?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...ually-COOLED-past-100-years-study-claims.html
 
The Poor Need Cheap Fossil Fuels
By BJORN LOMBORG

PRAGUE — THERE’S a lot of hand-wringing about our warming planet, but billions of people face a more immediate problem: They are desperately poor, and many cook and heat their homes using open fires or leaky stoves that burn dirty fuels like wood, dung, crop waste and coal.

About 3.5 million of them die prematurely each year as a result of breathing the polluted air inside their homes — about 200,000 more than the number who die prematurely each year from breathing polluted air outside, according to a study by the World Health Organization.

There’s no question that burning fossil fuels is leading to a warmer climate and that addressing this problem is important. But doing so is a question of timing and priority. For many parts of the world, fossil fuels are still vital and will be for the next few decades, because they are the only means to lift people out of the smoke and darkness of energy poverty.

More than 1.2 billion people around the world have no access to electricity, according to the International Energy Agency’s World Energy Outlook for 2012. Most of them live in sub-Saharan Africa and in Asia. That is nearly four times the number of people who live in the United States. In sub-Saharan Africa, for instance, excluding South Africa, the entire electricity-generating capacity available is only 28 gigawatts — equivalent to Arizona’s — for 860 million people. About 6.5 million people live in Arizona.

Even more people — an estimated three billion — still cook and heat their homes using open fires and leaky stoves, according to the energy agency. More efficient stoves could help. And solar panels could provide LED lights and power to charge cellphones.

But let’s face it. What those living in energy poverty need are reliable, low-cost fossil fuels, at least until we can make a global transition to a greener energy future. This is not just about powering stoves and refrigerators to improve billions of lives but about powering agriculture and industry that will improve lives.

Over the last 30 years, China moved an estimated 680 million people out of poverty by giving them access to modern energy, mostly powered by coal. Yes, this has resulted in terrible air pollution and a huge increase in greenhouse gas emissions. But it is a trade-off many developing countries would gratefully choose. As China becomes wealthier, it will most likely begin to cut its air pollution problem through regulation, just as the rich world did in the 20th century. But, admittedly, cutting carbon-dioxide emissions will be much harder because these emissions are a byproduct of the cheap energy that makes the world go around.

Today, 81 percent of the planet’s energy needs are met by fossil fuels, and according to the International Energy Agency, that percentage will be almost as high in 2035 under current policies, when consumption will be much greater. The unfortunate fact is that many people feel uncomfortable facing up to the undeniable need for more cheap and reliable power in the developing world. The Obama administration announced recently, for instance, that it would no longer contribute to the construction of coal-fired power plants financed by the World Bank and other international development banks.

This should not have been a surprise. The last time the World Bank agreed to help finance construction of a coal-fired power plant, in South Africa in 2010, the United States abstained from a vote approving the deal. The Obama administration expressed concerns that the project would “produce significant greenhouse gas emissions.” But as South Africa’s finance minister, Pravin Gordhan, explained at the time in The Washington Post, “To sustain the growth rates we need to create jobs, we have no choice but to build new generating capacity — relying on what, for now, remains our most abundant and affordable energy source: coal.”

The developed world needs a smarter approach toward cleaner fuels. The United States has been showing the way. Hydraulic fracturing has produced an abundance of inexpensive natural gas, leading to a shift away from coal in electricity production. Because burning natural gas emits half the carbon dioxide of coal, this technology has helped the United States reduce carbon dioxide emissions to the lowest level since the mid-1990s, even as emissions rise globally. We need to export this technology and help other nations exploit it.

At the same time, wealthy Western nations must step up investments into research and development in green energy technologies to ensure that cleaner energy eventually becomes so cheap that everyone will want it.

But until then they should not stand in the way of poorer nations as they turn to coal and other fossil fuels. This approach will get our priorities right. And perhaps then, people will be able to cook in their own homes without slowly killing themselves.


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/04/opinion/the-poor-need-cheap-fossil-fuels.html?_r=1&
 
LAGOS, Nigeria—The quest to turn the lights back on in Nigeria is pitting some of the country's richest men against rusted power lines, pilfered electricity and grenade-lobbing saboteurs.

Since independence from the U.K. in 1960, Nigeria's government built only 12 power plants—all of them now in disrepair. Meanwhile, its population tripled to 174 million. The result: Nigeria produces less than half as much electricity as North Dakota for 249 times more people. Blackouts strike 320 days a year, according to the World Bank.

MK-CL820_AFPOWE_G_20140423183310.jpg



http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304049904579515183408829094
 
This is a great illustration of the different way we think.

You assume human innovation will cease even though that has never happened while I assume it will continue as it always has.

Impressive arrogance.

The Appeal to Authority and Ad Hominem fallacies don't really work on me though. Everyone is allowed an equal voice whether you like it or not. Elitism doesn't play well with me.

You probably don't even realize that if you were a skeptic you would be attacked for not being a climate scientist. So if you subscribe to typical alarmist arguments, you are not qualified to discuss this topic at all.

It's based on the facts. Poverty kills people. That's not debatable. Policies which hinder developing cultures from achieving wealth will kill people. It's not a guess, it's not a theory, it's a fact based on the way the world works.

Point 1: Warming is known to be historically positive for humans. That's common knowledge. Assuming that will be different this time is flawed reasoning...but typical of doom thinking.

Point 2: Obviously 200 years of warming has not had a negative effect on us. We are currently in the greatest period of human advancement on the history of our species. Just the fact that we've doubled our lifespan in the last 150 years is immeasurably positive. Existing twice as long is a miracle for any species. You of course think this will all end and suddenly warming will be a bad thing. Doomsaying thinking. You actually think it's logical to assume the entire history of the modern warming period is an outlier which will now change to fit the "doom". The usual, "Any time now....doom will get here!" stuff that doomsayers have been ladling out for many centuries.

Basically, the "warming is bad" assumption is not based on anything. But alarmists always believe the debate should start from that assumption. It starts with "See? It's warming!". In their minds this proves both that "warming is bad" and "warming is caused by people". The worst scientific thinking imaginable.

I make you out to be a typical doomsayer. You aren't interested in facts, just politics and attempts to silence dissent. It's been the way of religious fanaticism throughout our history. There is nothing new here.

I don't mind conventional religious doomsayers so much. They are eye-rolling in their thinking...("the world is doomed because of man's sins!") but at least we no longer have to worry about them controlling society with their beliefs. Environmental religious doomsayers are attempting to force their beliefs on everyone and are trying very hard to silence anyone who disagrees. The arrogance and elitism is nauseating to say the least.

Misrepresenting what scientists actually say is the first red-flag here.
Did you happen to notice that precisely none of what you said here constitutes a counterargument?

Did anybody else notice? I'm curious. This guy did not address a single point during his massive diatribe. And any point he did raise was already addressed in the original post.

It's astounding. Truly remarkable.

There is one comment I would like to address, however:

JKD said:
Impressive arrogance.

The Appeal to Authority and Ad Hominem fallacies don't really work on me though. Everyone is allowed an equal voice whether you like it or not. Elitism doesn't play well with me.
Everyone is allowed an equal voice. However, that doesn't guarantee that your opinion is of equal value or equal merit. You're simply wrong when you claim that populations cannot exceed long-term carrying capacity.

There is no appeal to authority here. I have expressed a willingness to explain to you, in detail, why you are wrong. However, I am not going to engage in this discussion without some indication that you are willing to learn these concepts. This would constitute a considerable effort on my part, given your apparent lack of background with respect to these topics, and may literally necessitate some form of "homework" assignments.

It's your call.
 
I think it's a bit of both.

Humanity is a major role but climate changes all the time.
 
Secret Science Reform Act: Another attack on science

As you guys know, the EPA is in place to make sure we minimize our impact on the environment, since this would harm our ecosystem and human health. This includes regulating the quality of our air, making sure we don't have too many pollutants which can cause health issues.

Politicians in the House of Representatives are seeking to undermine the scientific process which guide the EPA's policies, including its air quality standards. Rep. Lamar Smith, Chairman of the House Committee on Science, Space and Technology (sigh), has sponsored the Secret Science Reform Act back in February, which seeks to gain access to the raw data. The Union of Concerned Scientists have written several posts on why this is problematic, and I would highly recommend checking them out.

Basically, the bill would require all data on environmental research to be made public before the EPA can make any regulations. Keep in mind, this research has already gone through the peer-review process, where experts in the field have already validated the methods and conclusions to be sound. Also, this would include research done by various organizations, universities, industries, who would be unlikely to make this data public due to privacy or intellectual property concerns. So in reality, this bill would effectively tie the EPA's hands.

http://docs.house.gov/meetings/SY/S...-113HR4012ih-SecretScienceReformActof2014.pdf

Ya this will end well
 
Did you happen to notice that precisely none of what you said here constitutes a counterargument?
You sound like you are copying my previous statement here: "Interesting string of non-responses you've put up here." ...After you just attacked me over and over instead of addressing the subject we were talking about.

This seems to be where the personal attacks started: http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=28656997&postcount=933

I'll admit you sucked me into it too.
Evo said:
Did anybody else notice? I'm curious. This guy did not address a single point during his massive diatribe. And any point he did raise was already addressed in the original post.
"Hey guys! Let's all attack him together! Come on! Keep the subject on him instead of the topic at hand! ...Hopefully he won't notice what I'm doing!"

Really? :woot:
Evo said:
There is one comment I would like to address, however:

Everyone is allowed an equal voice. However, that doesn't guarantee that your opinion is of equal value or equal merit. You're simply wrong when you claim that populations cannot exceed long-term carrying capacity.
I disagree. The moment the planet cannot support a certain number of people, the population will decline to the point where the planet can support them. It's a very simple equation. Our population did not grow dramatically in the last 100 years in spite of the ability of the planet to sustain us.
Evo said:
There is no appeal to authority here. I have expressed a willingness to explain to you, in detail, why you are wrong. However, I am not going to engage in this discussion without some indication that you are willing to learn these concepts. This would constitute a considerable effort on my part, given your apparent lack of background with respect to these topics, and may literally necessitate some form of "homework" assignments.
You don't really think I'm going to be convinced by this display of arrogance, do you? It's impressive...I'll give you that.
 
National Climate Assessment, worked on by 300 experts over several years.

http://nca2014.globalchange.gov/highlights

The U.S. National Climate Assessment Report was published Tuesday [link]. I’ve read half of the chapters (at the beginning and end), skimming the ones in the middle.

My main conclusion from reading the report is this: the phrase ‘climate change’ is now officially meaningless. The report effectively implies that there is no climate change other than what is caused by humans, and that extreme weather events are equivalent to climate change. Any increase in adverse impacts from extreme weather events or sea level rise is caused by humans. Possible scenarios of future climate change depend only on emissions scenarios that are translated into warming by climate models that produce far more warming than has recently been observed.

Some of the basic underlying climate science and impacts reported is contradictory to the recent IPCC AR5 reports. Pat Michaels and Chip Knappenberger have written a 134 page critique of a draft of the NCADAC report [link].

Even in the efforts to spin extreme weather events as alarming and caused by humans, Roger Pielke Jr. has tweeted the following quotes from the Report:

“There has been no universal trend in the overall extent of drought across the continental U.S. since 1900″
“Other trends in severe storms, including the intensity & frequency of tornadoes, hail, and damaging thunderstorm winds, are uncertain”
“lack of any clear trend in landfall frequency along the U.S. eastern and Gulf coasts”
“when averaging over the entire contiguous U.S., there is no overall trend in flood magnitudes”

As a I wrote in a previous post on a draft of the report, the focus should be on the final Chapter 29: Research Agenda, which outlines what we DON’T know. Chapter 28 Adaptation is also pretty good. Chapter 27 Mitigation is also not bad, and can hardly be said to make a strong case for mitigation. Chapter 26 on Decision Support is also ok, with one exception: they assume the only scenarios of future climate are tied to CO2 emissions scenarios.

An interesting feature of the report is Traceable Accounts – for each major conclusion a Traceable Account is given that describes the Key Message Process, Description of evidence base, New information and remaining uncertainties, Assessment of confidence based on evidence. The entertainment value comes in reading the description of very substantial uncertainties, and then seeing ‘very high confidence’. This exercise, while in principle is a good one, in practice only serves to highlight the absurdity of the ‘very high confidence’ levels in this report.

White House

Apparently President Obama is embracing this Report, and the issue of climate change, in a big way, see this WaPo article For President Obama A Renewed Focus On Climate. Motherboard has an interesting article How extreme weather convinced Obama to fight climate change.

In an interesting move, Obama Taps TV Meteorologists to Roll Out New Climate Report, which describes how Obama is giving interviews to some TV weathermen. It will be interesting to see how this strategy plays out, since TV weathermen tend to be pretty skeptical of AGW.

The politics on this are interesting also, see especially these two articles

White house set to lay out climate risks as it touts U.S. energy boom
Podesta: Congress can’t stop Obama on global warming

JC reflections

While there is some useful analysis in the report, it is hidden behind a false premise that any change in the 20th century has been caused by AGW. Worse yet is the spin being put on this by the Obama administration. The Washington Post asks the following question: Does National Climate Assessment lack necessary nuance? In a word, YES.

The failure to imagine future extreme events and climate scenarios, other than those that are driven by CO2 emissions and simulated by deficient climate models, has the potential to increase our vulnerability to future climate surprises (see my recent presentation on this Generating possibility distributions of scenarios for regional climate change). As an example, the Report highlights the shrinking of winter ice in the Great Lakes: presently, in May, Lake Superior is 30% cover by ice, which is apparently unprecedented in the historical record.
http://judithcurry.com/2014/05/06/u-s-national-climate-assessment-report/

It's a political document.

I can't help but wonder if alarmists really believe there would be no extreme weather events if only we would cease CO2 emissions. (since every extreme weather event is now blamed on us) I'm also quite curious to know what alarmists believe would have happened to temps post-1950 since they claim that temps only rose due to our emissions. The previous 100+ years of warming were apparently going to stop at that point if not for us?
 
Another red flag. Refusal to reveal the data. Excuses for why no one is allowed to see it.....while insisting that mankind should dramatically alter its lifestyle based on claims that no one is allowed to verify.

"Just trust us". :whatever:

Do you honestly believe that burning fossil fuels at the rate we are today is not harming the environment? Are you so arrogant to think that we can continue using up our natural resources with no consequence?
 
http://judithcurry.com/2014/05/06/u-s-national-climate-assessment-report/

It's a political document.

I can't help but wonder if alarmists really believe there would be no extreme weather events if only we would cease CO2 emissions. (since every extreme weather event is now blamed on us) I'm also quite curious to know what alarmists believe would have happened to temps post-1950 since they claim that temps only rose due to our emissions. The previous 100+ years of warming were apparently going to stop at that point if not for us?

We are debating the opinions of meteorologists when we should be discussing the opinions of the climate scientists. They are two very different professionals.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marvin-meadors/why-do-meteorologists-dis_b_1289630.html
Meteorologists are notoriously reluctant to accept climate change. Why so? Theirs is a profession that studies the weather, which is akin to what climate scientists do by studying the weather over relatively long periods. Of course, they are not as educated as climate scientists who have PhD's in their field, while many meteorologists have college degrees unrelated to meteorology. Meteorologists know the pitfalls of being wrong when making a forecast, however, they do not seem to realize that the conclusions of climate scientists are not the same as saying there is a 50% chance of precipitation tomorrow. The International Panel on Climate Change or IPCC put a probability that it is more than 90% likely that man is causing climate change. Do meteorologists, weathermen to use a more prosaic term, just feel inferior to climate scientists or just why are they so dismissive about climate change?


According to a 2010 survey...

Twenty-nine percent of the 121 meteorologists who replied agreed ...--not that global warming was unproven, or unlikely, but that it was a scam. Just 24 percent of them believed that humans were responsible for most of the change in climate over the past half century--half were sure this wasn't true, and another quarter were "neutral" on the issue." It is a scary statistic considering climate change may be the most important topic of our day.


A more recent survey in 2012 showed that more than half of TV weather reporters don't believe in human-induced climate change, even as our agitated weather grows more extreme.


Weathermen communicate directly with the public in the intimacies of their living rooms each evening and therefore can greatly influence public perceptions about climate change. In a 2008 survey, it was learned that 66% of people trusted meteorologists most for their source of information about climate change. Climate scientists were considered more credible, but few people knew one or kept up with the latest scientific findings. Consequently, there is a battle going on for the hearts and minds of weather forecasters with far-right think tanks, like the Heartland Institute, vying for the souls of weathermen pitted against legitimate organizations like The National Science Foundation and the Congress-funded National Environmental Education Foundation.


As the only professional who speaks about science in an atmosphere of 30-second sound bites, weather forecasters are often asked to gauge an opinion on anything that may touch upon a scientific topic, although they may have scant knowledge of the field. These inquiries may give them the impression they are more omniscient in their science knowledge than they really are. "There is one little problem with this: most weather forecasters are not really scientists. When a broad pool of weather forecasters were surveyed in a study barely half of them had a college degree in meteorology or another atmospheric science. Only 17 percent had received a graduate degree, effectively a prerequisite for an academic researcher in any scientific field."


"Among the certified meteorologists surveyed in 2008, 79 percent considered it appropriate to educate their communities about climate change. Few of them, however, had taken the steps necessary to fully educate themselves about it. When asked which source of information on climate change they most trusted, 22 percent named the American Meteorological Society (AMS). But the next most popular answer, with 16 percent, was "no one." The third was "myself.""


Meteorologists almost uniformly base much of their skepticism of climate science on the use of models. "Meteorologists know the inaccuracies of their own models," Brian Neudorff, a meteorologist at WROC in Rochester, said. "There's a lot of error and bias. We'll use five different models and come back with five different things. So when we hear that climatological models are saying this, how accurate are they?"


Besides the fact that models predicted such events as the climatic effects of the eruption of Mt. Pinatubo after being fed data on the eruption and other effects of climate change, what about the documented evidence that is gathered by scientists like the loss of polar ice or the melting of mountain glaciers, which many photographers have captured in time-lapse comparisons?


Apparently meteorologists not only have large gaps in their understanding of climate change science, but do not even realize the extent of these gaps. For example, they are seemingly unaware of the uniformity of the scientific consensus. In fact, scientists may be partly to blame for these misconceptions. "I don't see my job as convincing anyone of anything," Michael Mann, a climatologist and professor at Penn State University, said. (7) So perhaps both sides share some of the blame - Meteorologists for not recognizing the limitations of their knowledge of climate science and the scientists themselves for not doing a better job of convincing the professionals best positioned to inform the listening public. One day perhaps even John Coleman, of The Weather Channel fame, can be convinced of the reality of warming.
 
You sound like you are copying my previous statement here: "Interesting string of non-responses you've put up here." ...After you just attacked me over and over instead of addressing the subject we were talking about.
Did you happen to notice when I went back and addressed each of the logical fallacies in turn?

Of course you didn't. Silly me.

JKD said:
"Hey guys! Let's all attack him together! Come on! Keep the subject on him instead of the topic at hand! ...Hopefully he won't notice what I'm doing!"

Really? :woot:
I wanted an outside opinion on whether I was actually observing what I was observing. If there was an actual response in that digital diarrhea, and I happened to miss it, I would want to know.

JKD said:
I disagree.
I know. And you're wrong.

JKD said:
The moment the planet cannot support a certain number of people, the population will decline to the point where the planet can support them.
Here is where you are mistaken: the idea that these effects are instantaneous. In fact, the magnitude of the delay and the response itself are influenced strongly by population growth rate, among other things.

Also, you seem to have a disregard for the concept of rates in general - instead opting for the more simplistic view that actual quantity at any given time is somehow more important. It is not, especially when we're talking about trends over time.

JKD said:
It's a very simple equation.
Actually, this is the first correct statement you've made during this conversation. Congratulations!

Discrete Time

N_(t+1) = N_(t) + R*N_(t)*(1 - N_(t)/K)

Continuous Time

dN/dt = r*N*(1 - (N_(t-T))/K)

JKD said:
You don't really think I'm going to be convinced by this display of arrogance, do you? It's impressive...I'll give you that.
What do you have to lose? My offer was sincere.
 
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