Discussion: Global Warming, Emission Standards, and Other Environmental Issues

What is your opinion of climate change?

  • Yes it is real and humanity is causing it.

  • Yes it is real but part of a natural cycle.

  • It is real but is both man made and a natural cycle.

  • It's a complete scam made to make money.

  • I dont know or care.

  • Yes it is real and humanity is causing it.

  • Yes it is real but part of a natural cycle.

  • It is real but is both man made and a natural cycle.

  • It's a complete scam made to make money.

  • I dont know or care.


Results are only viewable after voting.
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I'm not sure about New York but I know Miami is already having a problem with flooding and they said just 1 foot more than what it is now will have most of Miami underwater. A big problem they have fighting it is most of Miami is built on limestone so that's not conducive with being able to do much about the rising tide problem
Miami's biggest problem with flooding isn't climate change (though it is a factor), the biggest problem is that it's built at a horrible location. It's surrounded by several major bodies of water, lies almost at sea level, the rainwater has nowhere to drain because the city's water supply is just below the ground surface, and as you mention the city is built over limestone with only a thin layer of ground soil over it. Climate change isn't Miami's problem, Miami is a city that is practically begging to get flooded. It's like how San Fransisco was built near a major fault line or how Dhaka, Bangladesh is in a Roland Emmerich movie.

Even Miami-Dade's website basically says "We done goofed" when choosing to decide where to build the city.
 
I was reading about the IPCC reports today and how my sister says she has really smart friends who say that NYC will be completely flooded within 10 years and it got me thinking of just how much I hate the people who are dominating the climate change discussion and the people who are running things like the IPCC, Greenpeace, etc.

Alarmists who do nothing but make these doomsday predictions (which almost never come true) are only emboldening stupid climate change troglodyte deniers. These stupid projections that always end up being way off takes away serious discussion on how to deal with climate change (which is real) responsibly (through sustainable development). The Greens are doing far more damage for the movement than helping it.

One of the worst things that has been done in response to global warming has been the politicization of the subject. Deniers and alarmists both want to win the argument and need the public support to make that happen. So they make outlandish statements to get people's attention. The politicians and non-scientists need to stay out of it and let the experts have their say.
 
One of the worst things that has been done in response to global warming has been the politicization of the subject. Deniers and alarmists both want to win the argument and need the public support to make that happen. So they make outlandish statements to get people's attention. The politicians and non-scientists need to stay out of it and let the experts have their say.

I think the thing that turned me off the most with Climate change was all the doom and gloom types who predicted the apocalypse. Basically the same thing that annoys me about the extreme parts of the Republican party reared it's head for Global warming(except this time it's for a leftie issue)

I always say the worst thing that happened to the Climate Change movement is that Al Gore movie from like 10 years ago where he basically used every cheap political ploy to try bring legitimacy to the issue

I think the worst thing the pro humans are responsible for climate change side did is not actively try and have a public debate about climate change. They always claim it's to late to get into a debate we need to do something NOW!!!!! but guess what when it was to late to do anything about it 5 years ago, if you actually got into a public debate we might be doing something now about it.
 
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I think what has turned me off is the fact that it has become a "money making venture" and people are making millions (Al Gore) off of it. It makes me question their motives when that kind of money is involved.
 
I think what has turned me off is the fact that it has become a "money making venture" and people are making millions (Al Gore) off of it. It makes me question their motives when that kind of money is involved.

Ya like those carbon credits rich people buy to make themselves feel good about owning a private jet and a yacht. Saw a thing about how anyone can start a business claiming to do carbon credits and they don't have to do anything at all. But as long as the wealthy feel like they are contributing that's all that matters
 
http://www.montereyherald.com/news/...s-say-nothing-certain-but-global-warming-real

Scientists say 95% chance, or "extremely likely," that climate change is mostly man made
That's gotta be the most unscientific thing I've ever heard. It does however, sound very political.

How to you measure how "likely" something is? And what is "mostly"?

Temps have not risen for 17 years...which is now called "natural variability".

I think that the latest IPCC report has truly sunk to level of hilarious incoherence. They are proclaiming increased confidence in their models as the discrepancies between their models and observations increase.
Their excuse for the absence of warming over the past 17 years is that the heat is hiding in the deep ocean. However, this is simply an admission that the models fail to simulate the exchanges of heat between the surface layers and the deeper oceans. However, it is this heat transport that plays a major role in natural internal variability of climate, and the IPCC assertions that observed warming can be attributed to man depend crucially on their assertion that these models accurately simulate natural internal variability. Thus, they now, somewhat obscurely, admit that their crucial assumption was totally unjustified.
Finally, in attributing warming to man, they fail to point out that the warming has been small, and totally consistent with there being nothing to be alarmed about. It is quite amazing to see the contortions the IPCC has to go through in order to keep the international climate agenda going.

Richard Lindzen


Let's just agree that neither of us will convince the other that our side is correct.
:woot: True. :fhm:
Hobgoblin said:
But if you could do me a favor and tell me what you think of this website, I'd appreciate it.

http://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php
Looks like the same politics of "consensus" and appeal to authority to me. They are counting on me not knowing our global temp records do not extent further than the 1980s ("hottest on record!").

They use the "97% agree" statement without explaining exactly what question was asked of scientists. If they ask, "Do you believe humans have caused some warming", you're going to get a big majority of agreement on that. But the question on the table here is "Do you believe man has caused warming which is going to doom the planet?" What is the "consensus" on that one?

Cook's paper has been thoroughly discredited anyway. His "97%" is actually "0.3%" http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11191-013-9647-9

They discount the sun because it and the climate have been going in "opposite directions for the past 35 years". Lack of correlation makes them completely rule out a climate factor...interesting. So...why don't they do that when CO2 emissions and climate go in opposite directions? That happened from the 1940s to the 1970s. And the last 17 years are also not correlating with emissions increasing. Well...when there is lack of correlation with the theory...that's not important when it's a theory they support apparently.

The models are reliable? Really? Wow...

"Global warming will cause mass extinctions of species..." Yeah....still waiting on this one after well over 150 years of warming.

Antarctica is currently at its "highest ice extent on record". (Again...our records are limited...but I wonder why they don't acknowledge that one?) And why do they think we have to start the discussion from "less ice is bad"?

The ice age scare of the 70s was so pervasive that the CIA issued a report on it. There is a real attempt to pretend that didn't happen now.

“The western world’s leading climatologists have confirmed recent reports of a detrimental global climate change. The stability of most nations is based upon a dependable source of food, but this stability will not be possible under the new climatic era. A forecast by the University of Wisconsin projects that the earth’s climate is returning to that of the neo-boreal era (1600- 1850) – an era of drought, famine and political unrest in the western world.
http://www.climatemonitor.it/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/1974.pdf

That's enough for now...but one further down the page that caught my eye was "1934 was one of the hottest years in the US, not globally." Wait...now they are willing to point out how limited our temp records were prior to 1980? Very convenient timing on that one! :oldrazz:
I think the worst thing the pro humans are responsible for climate change side did is not actively try and have a public debate about climate change. They always claim it's to late to get into a debate we need to do something NOW!!!!! but guess what when it was to late to do anything about it 5 years ago, if you actually got into a public debate we might be doing something now about it.
Oh it's been "too late" for longer than that. That's an old trick. From 1989:

GREENHOUSE WARMING NATIONS MAY VANISH, U.N. SAYS
A senior U.N. environmental official says entire nations could be wiped off the face of the Earth by rising sea levels if the global warming trend is not reversed by the year 2000. Coastal flooding and crop failures would create an exodus of "eco-refugees," threatening political chaos, said Noel Brown, director of the New York office of the United Nations U.N. Environment Program, or UNEP. He said governments have a 10-year window of opportunity to solve the greenhouse effect before...


http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we...page=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM

It's key to remember the things they say so you can remember if they come true. This entire issue is based on the ability to predict...and the predictions are not accurate.
 
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Loving this scorching weather. 83 degrees up here in the New York area tomorrow in October. Keep up the good work global warming. Sorry to my future grandchildren for ****ing up the planet's ecosystem.
 
Loving this scorching weather. 83 degrees up here in the New York area tomorrow in October. Keep up the good work global warming. Sorry to my future grandchildren for ****ing up the planet's ecosystem.
Just to be clear...does this mean a colder than normal day can be used to prove the theory false? (We had a LOT of those in the past 12 months by the way)
 
:whatever:

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I love how he goes from 2060 being when we "probably will start feeling the effects of really significant climate change" to "going to be a problem when I die". He could be a politician! Start with "probably something something vague claim" then end with "going to be".

Claim 1- "Past climate change was caused by CO2". No...he actually admitted that past temps have increased BEFORE CO2 increased. He just blamed fever for causing the flu. He then immediately claimed that the CO2 increasing AFTERWARD "amplified the warming". That claim is based on his belief....nothing more. I can't help wondering how he believes the climate cooled after periods like this. How would that be possible with all that naughty CO2 up there "amplifying the warming"? I guess he only looks at the parts of those charts which bolster his beliefs.

Claim 2- "The urban heat island effect is not real". I think Anthony Watts covers it better than I can: http://youtu.be/q_-A-uDu2fQ?t=31m36s The guy in the video above claims scientists aren't stupid. Well...then they are dishonest. We are talking about temps changes in tenths of a degree here. Only 1 in 10 weather stations in the US were acceptable by NOAA's own standards. So claiming that "even the rural stations showed warming" is avoiding the topic of that warming being exaggerated by faulty stations and then that exaggeration being used as "evidence that humans cause the warming". "It's warming too much to be natural" is the claim. (Another assumption) The accurate stations show a .156°c warming per decade trend, the inaccurate "heat island" stations show a .248°c per decade warming trend. So that changes the conversation right there. NOAA then "adjusted" the records to come up with a .309°c per decade trend! :wow: Imagine if skeptics were changing data to support their arguments!

3-"Hottest on record". Since we don't have any global (yes...global) temp records earlier than 1980 that's not significant.

4-"It's not warming as fast". Yes...we are currently in a warming "pause" that even the IPCC had to acknowledge in their recent report. ...Though they of course were forced to downplay it as much as possible due to political influence. The IPCC and Met Office came up with "the heat is going into the oceans instead" excuse for a reason. (Which the models did not predict) I love how this guy brings up that longer time periods are better for seeing how climate works while the whole AGW argument is based on the last 50 years....and some climate scientists arbitrarily came up with "30 years" as a good snapshot of "climate"....which he dutifully shows a graph of. (Which somehow does not show the past 17 year pause in warming)

5-"The 70s global cooling scare is exaggerated". Not really. It was pervasive enough for the CIA to get involved too. Here is their report:

The western world’s leading climatologists have confirmed recent reports of a detrimental global climate change. The stability of most nations is based upon a dependable source of food, but this stability will not be possible under the new climatic era. A forecast by the University of Wisconsin projects that the earth’s climate is returning to that of the neo-boreal era (1600- 1850) – an era of drought, famine and political unrest in the western world.

http://www.climatemonitor.it/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/1974.pdf

And here is a nice collection of articles about how doomed we were from back then. (We never change...our species LOVES "doom")

http://stevengoddard.wordpress.com/1970s-ice-age-scare/

There is a reason this was happening. Because the climate had cooled for a couple of decades. This cooling began just as our CO2 emissions took off. The exact OPPOSITE of what should happen if the theory were valid. Correlation does not equal causation, but this theory doesn't even have correlation. (Including the aforementioned lack of correlation with past temps and CO2 levels)

Same old "sea levels are rising so that proves humans are causing it". Sea levels have been rising long before we could have had anything to do with it:





His Antarctica claims are very vague and he certainly rushes through that "explanation".

His claim that "there are costs to using fossil fuels" is just speculation based on this theory.

Wow...he actually admitted that "solving problems is what we do best"??? Don't let AGW believers hear you say that one dude. I agree with him. We are the most adaptable species on the planet. We live in just about every climate available. (Even Antarctica) I always find it interesting that AGW believers give us all this power "We have altered the climate of this planet!" on one hand...but then try to portray us as helpless to deal with any change in the climate. Make up your minds guys.

Wealth is how we best deal with weather events in particular. Richer countries are routinely barely effected by extreme weather while poorer countries are hit hard. Seeking to reduce our wealth seems like a poor "solution".

And one last note. This all started in the late 80s/early 90s. Lots of agreements, hand-wringing, and political speeches later...and how is it going? Are we curtailing CO2 emissions or are they skyrocketing? (Hint: it's the latter) Maybe all the doom-saying isn't working? Maybe it's time to try a different approach after failing so spectacularly for 25 years? Just a thought.
 
http://www.climatemonitor.it/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/1974.pdf

And here is a nice collection of articles about how doomed we were from back then. (We never change...our species LOVES "doom")

http://stevengoddard.wordpress.com/1970s-ice-age-scare/

I always remember when I was a kid(like 6-8 years old) watching some show about the Earth freezing over and that always stuck with me to this day(this would be the very late 70s, early 80s). I wonder if it was that in Search Of(the Coming Ice Age) show
 
I always remember when I was a kid(like 6-8 years old) watching some show about the Earth freezing over and that always stuck with me to this day(this would be the very late 70s, early 80s). I wonder if it was that in Search Of(the Coming Ice Age) show
It's important that we remember the past predictions. Otherwise doomsayers just make up new "doom" and serve it up while people with short memories just lap it up again.

Now that we have the internet, it's tougher for doomsayers. Information is right there for us to look at. Now the tactic has to change for the doom industry....they've got to either pretend they didn't say certain things in the past ("We won't know what snow is by 2011!") or try to paint what they said as "We weren't really wrong" ("Snow proves AGW right too!"). Kinda like how there is an effort to pretend there was no Global Cooling scare in the 70s or the IPCC redrawing the error bars on the predictions of models so the lack of warming for the last 17 years will barely be included at the low end.

In 2007, Australian Chief Climate Commissioner Tim Flannery predicted "even the rain that falls isn't actually going to fill our dams and our river systems". But it did.

In 2001, the IPCC predicted "milder winter temperatures will decrease heavy snowstorms".



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:whatever:

Nice...now that "the petroleum guys" are onboard (they see the money too)...they are welcomed into the fold. I thought they were only motivated by money before? :woot:

More appeal to authority. "Everyone qualified to judge". We are just supposed to change the lifestyle of the human race...lower our standard of living...because of a small group of "experts". This guy has it backward. When you make extraordinary claims, you need extraordinary proof...and AGW theory doesn't have that. The burden of proof is on AGW believers if you want the entire human race to lower the standard of living we have spent centuries achieving.

More exaggeration. "Making the whole planet uninhabitable". He does admit "everyone who is qualified to judge says it is.....or it might be happening". That points out the obvious fact that we can't even tell this "catastrophic global warming" is happening at all. And we are well over 150 years into the warming period now. The only way we can detect it is by listening to "everyone who is qualified to judge"? The really damning thing is that we have experienced the greatest period of prosperity in human history during this 150+ year warming period. Yeah...warming is terrible, isn't it? As usual, it's "well...just wait...it's coming...any time now".

"10 years" seems to be the theme from the beginning. That's when it will be "too late". :wow: It seems like a safe date in the future so your prediction doesn't have to come true immediately but also close enough to be scary.

“The leading experts predict that we have less than 10 years to make dramatic changes in our global warming pollution lest we lose our ability to ever recover from this environmental crisis” -Al Gore 2008

A senior U.N. environmental official says entire nations could be wiped off the face of the Earth by rising sea levels if the global warming trend is not reversed by the year 2000. Coastal flooding and crop failures would create an exodus of "eco-refugees," threatening political chaos, said , director of the New York office of the United Nations U.N. Environment Program, or UNEP. He said governments have a 10-year window of opportunity to solve the [problem].-Noel Brown 1989

"With just 10 more years of 'business as usual' emissions from the burning of coal, oil and gas it becomes impractical to avoid "disastrous effects."-James Hansen 2007



More appeal to consensus. He doesn't point out that when you ask certain questions, you can get this almighty consensus. "Do you think the planet has warmed over the 20th century and that mankind made a measurable contribution to that warming?" That question will get a very high agreement. But that's not the case being made, is it? Let's ask the REAL question..."Do you think the warming is catastrophic, the planet will become uninhabitable, and that mankind is responsible for most of the warming?" When you ask that one, the agreement plummets and the "consensus" disappears. Do these guys sound like they think the world is doomed and it's our fault? http://translate.googleusercontent....ighet/&usg=ALkJrhgg2yHQ_CB4qGQTUjpzVE0vMVkdgg. How about these guys? http://www.speroforum.com/a/20054/German-scientists-reject-manmade-global-warming#.UlV3aNJwqij. Does this guy sound like he is saying the world is ending? http://coast.gkss.de/staff/zorita/ How about this guy? http://www.spiegel.de/international...lems-with-climate-change-models-a-906721.html That's not even going into how that "consensus" has been manipulated recently by Cook et al.

More precautionary principle. "We should act just in case!" Never even considered is the possibility of AGW policies reducing prosperity and causing millions of deaths worldwide in years to come. (Poverty kills more than anything else) So the precautionary principle works both ways here. Where is the "We should be sure before we risk killing millions of people"?

Lastly is this. The tactics he is using here have been in use since 1988. How is that working so far? Have CO2 emissions ("pollution" :whatever:) decreased or have they skyrocketed faster than ever?

Some environmentalists aren't happy that real problems are being ignored while the most popular doom takes so many resources:
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Ah the all-powerful eye roll. Is there any way to counter it? Maybe TWO eyerolls! :whatever::whatever:

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Finally a Republican who admits Global Warming is man made

http://www.salon.com/2013/11/04/pot..._explains_how_abortion_caused_climate_change/

The disastrous effects of global warming are most certainly man-made, said Christian historian David Barton. No, not because we’ve been burning fossil fuels. It’s because God is mad at us. And no, he’s not mad us for burning fossil fuels. All this “climate stuff that we can’t explain,” Barton explained in a conversation with televangelist Kenneth Copeland, is God’s judgment wrought down on us for, among other things, abortion.

Together, the two worked out this basic sequence of events to explain their alternative theory of climate change:

1. America voted in politicians who support abortion rights.

2. In so doing, we “opened the door to the curse,” which includes floods, tornadoes, murder and pedophilia.

Back in the days of early America, Barton explained, if crazy weather was happening, the first thing leaders would do is “call for a national day of repentance, humiliation, fasting and prayer … and today we’re saying, ‘Oh no, it’s global warming.’”

In reality, he said, “We opened a door that lost God’s protection over our environment and that’s our choice.”
 
:eek:

Well, at least prayer can't hurt.

Still, global warming discussions aside. We need to try to stop polluting while people can still breathe. Or do you really want the whole planet to end up like the folks in China?

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/video/2013-10/23/c_132823526.htm

BEIJING, Oct. 23 (Xinhuanet) -- Seventy of 74 monitored China's cities have suffered from air pollution in the third quarter of this year, according to the Ministry of Environmental Protection.

Among the most polluted 10 cities, 7 of them are near the capital, Beijing. Air pollution readings in Beijing as well as neighboring Tianjin Municipality and Hebei Province have been worse than in other parts of the country.

The monitored cities in the region failed to meet the required standards during an average of 62.5 percent of the time, or about 58 days, while the national average stood at around 29 days.
 
I'm not sure about New York but I know Miami is already having a problem with flooding and they said just 1 foot more than what it is now will have most of Miami underwater. A big problem they have fighting it is most of Miami is built on limestone so that's not conducive with being able to do much about the rising tide problem
Never fails to amazing me that we continue to totally discount our proven ability to adapt. There are many places on this planet which are BELOW sea level...yet we live there (New Orleans, the Netherlands, etc.).
I was reading about the IPCC reports today and how my sister says she has really smart friends who say that NYC will be completely flooded within 10 years and it got me thinking of just how much I hate the people who are dominating the climate change discussion and the people who are running things like the IPCC, Greenpeace, etc.

Alarmists who do nothing but make these doomsday predictions (which almost never come true) are only emboldening stupid climate change troglodyte deniers. These stupid projections that always end up being way off takes away serious discussion on how to deal with climate change (which is real) responsibly (through sustainable development). The Greens are doing far more damage for the movement than helping it.
If you really want a good scare, check out the hilarious doom that Rolling Stone put out: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/why-the-city-of-miami-is-doomed-to-drown-20130620

Goodbye, Miami
By century's end, rising sea levels will turn the nation's urban fantasyland into an American Atlantis. But long before the city is completely underwater, chaos will begin


Chaos I tells ya!
I read this in the Toronto Star on October 14th, but they don't allow sharing, so here it is from another site:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/en...-the-Earth-is-getting-warmer-study-finds.html


The Earth is getting warmer, study finds

The Earth's surface is getting warmer, a study partly funded by climate change sceptics has concluded.
Several questions here. So if you like the results...that means you trust climate skeptics? Interesting.

Also wondering why the implication continues to be, "See? It's getting warmer! That proves man did it and that it's bad!"

No...that just proves it's getting warmer (or was until the past two decades)...something just about everyone agrees with. It does not prove mankind is responsible and it does not prove it's a bad thing. We are somehow expected to accept those two things without proof.

At the same time, there are real problems with "records". One being that there aren't enough of them to determine any real "global temperature"...since there is no such thing as global records before the 1980s...and no global sea temps before 2003. Another problem is the "adjustments" made to the records we do have which conveniently lowered past temps and raised recent ones. So anyone who claims they know for sure what past global temps were is not being truthful.

Same message...."The world is doomed because of man's sins". Not surprising at all....it's the same message we've been hearing for centuries. (Including during the Little Ice Age when the horrible conditions were of course blamed on our "sins" by the clergy at the time)
:eek:

Well, at least prayer can't hurt.

Still, global warming discussions aside. We need to try to stop polluting while people can still breathe. Or do you really want the whole planet to end up like the folks in China?

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/video/2013-10/23/c_132823526.htm
There is a name for what is going on there. The Kuznets curve. Nations pollute as they rise from poverty then become clean once they achieve enough prosperity to care about a clean environment. That's why the air and water have become so clean in the US over the decades. This is why environmental policies which reduce wealth are doomed to fail...people stop caring about environmental issues extremely quickly when they get poorer. That's why environmental concerns dropped to the bottom of polls when the worldwide recession happened. If you want a clean world, make every nation "developed".

http://www9.georgetown.edu/faculty/aml6/pdfs&zips/PalgraveEKC.pdf

China wants to join the party that the US and Europe joined....prosperity. And they will. They aren't going to forgo improving their way of life because some doomsayers tell them they have to stay poor.
 
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