🇺🇸 Discussion: Guns, The Second Amendment, NRA - Part II

[Sithborg]

I question what kind of training they go through, since Brown seemed to have been shot excessively for the situation. But, I am aware of the blue line. My brother found himself on the outs of it when he first started, for an amazingly stupid decision. He almost quit because of it.

Also, **** the NRA.

Exclusive: NRA Official Sought Sandy Hook Hoaxer To Question Parkland Shooting, Emails Show | HuffPost

 

[DarthSkywalker]

As for Tamir Rice, yeah. Not exactly the first time a 12 year old kid has pointed a real-looking weapon at a cop.

Uh huh... And the officer, who lied about being fired from his last job for being unstable reacting like the 12 year old was shooting everyone in sight was just normal, everyday work. A 12 year old who was doing nothing wrong was killed by a cop who decided being a cop was too much of a risk.

Same with Stephon Clark and his very gun like iPhone.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I question what kind of training they go through, since Brown seemed to have been shot excessively for the situation. But, I am aware of the blue line. My brother found himself on the outs of it when he first started, for an amazingly stupid decision. He almost quit because of it.

Also, **** the NRA.

Exclusive: NRA Official Sought Sandy Hook Hoaxer To Question Parkland Shooting, Emails Show | HuffPost

They are a legit super villains.

Also, I agree in general. There is this idea now that cops must risk absolutely nothing, and this has been ingrained into far too many people. Being a police officer is a dangerous job, but does that mean cops just get to shoot anyone they think might be the smallest of threats? Obviously not, but that is how it seems to be. Philando Castile told the cop he had a gun, and the cop said he shot him because he smoked weed and there was a kid in the car. Thus he felt a threat to his life. I mean, da ****...

 

[Donner]

Ah, of course the shootings were justified. Why am I not surprised with that take

 

[DarthSkywalker]

This is bull****. Oh and look, done by law enforcement.

 

[DJ Kornphlake]

NRA Leader: We Could Shut Down "Very Soon" - News & Guts Media

Thoughts and prayers.

 

[Teelie]

I'm praying and thinking as hard as I can.

 

[Holiday]

Uh huh... And the officer, who lied about being fired from his last job for being unstable reacting like the 12 year old was shooting everyone in sight was just normal, everyday work. A 12 year old who was doing nothing wrong was killed by a cop who decided being a cop was too much of a risk.

Same with Stephon Clark and his very gun like iPhone.

Would you take this gun to a public place and point it at people?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Would you take this gun to a public place and point it at people?

As a little kid? Yep. In our town little kids played around like that all the time. Ran around the park doing it. It wasn't atypical at all. And why would it be? Toy guns were everywhere when I was growing up.

 

[Teelie]

Same here. Everyone in my neighborhood had water guns, some of which looked like the real thing at a distance and not plastic until you were closer. I used to have several myself. Never once were they mistaken for real guns. There were black kids too and they never got hassled.

Then again the place I grew up also had military police who weren't quite as trigger-happy as some police officers are today.

 

[Batmannerism]

Cops not carrying sidearms is insane, you're clearly in the minority on that one.

No insanity here, just lack of necessity. Our Police don't need sidearm yet, they don't deal with gun violence very often. Most people who are shot by Police here aren't armed with guns, but with knives and other weapons. One day that might change, but today it works.

I'm not suggesting your police shouldn't carry guns - in fact I'm not suggesting any solutions to your country's problems because I honestly don't know what would work. For us stricter gun control is likely to work - would it work for the USA, who knows ?

What I am suggesting is that some sort of change is necessary or you will continue to experience the same problem.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Same here. Everyone in my neighborhood had water guns, some of which looked like the real thing at a distance and not plastic until you were closer. I used to have several myself. Never once were they mistaken for real guns. There were black kids too and they never got hassled.

Then again the place I grew up also had military police who weren't quite as trigger-happy as some police officers are today.

Where we lived it was cap guns, water guns and just straight up toy guns.

I also find the argument that removing the orange tip off these guns matter that much. Considering how the cops approached Rice, how could they even tell?

 

[Holiday]

As a little kid? Yep. In our town little kids played around like that all the time. Ran around the park doing it. It wasn't atypical at all. And why would it be? Toy guns were everywhere when I was growing up.

Why not as an adult? You wouldn't be doing anything wrong as you said. Was there a lot of gun violence growing up in your town like there is in Baltimore? Do you disagree with the parenting of Tamir Rice's mother who told him not to play with guns of any kind?

"His mother didn’t allow him around guns whatsoever, toy guns, water guns,” said one of Tamir’s relatives, Deonte Goldsby, 21. “She knows about things like this. She knows that somebody would mistake it for a real gun.”

 

[Holiday]

Where we lived it was cap guns, water guns and just straight up toy guns.

I also find the argument that removing the orange tip off these guns matter that much. Considering how the cops approached Rice, how could they even tell?

Airsoft guns look very much like the real thing. They are often used in robberies for a reason.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Why not as an adult? You wouldn't be doing anything wrong as you said. Was there a lot of gun violence growing up in your town like there is in Baltimore? Do you disagree with the parenting of Tamir Rice's mother who told him not to play with guns of any kind?

"His mother didn’t allow him around guns whatsoever, toy guns, water guns,” said one of Tamir’s relatives, Deonte Goldsby, 21. “She knows about things like this. She knows that somebody would mistake it for a real gun.”

Because I realized that too many cops are very willing to shoot anyone who aren't a whiter shade of pale for whatever reason they can find. It would be the same reason I wouldn't legally carry a real gun, unlike white folk who go around trying to intimidate with their actual firearms all out on display, and somehow don't get shot by the police.

 

[Aximili86]

No insanity here, just lack of necessity. Our Police don't need sidearm yet, they don't deal with gun violence very often.

They don't deal with gun violence very often in Australia or Canada or most of Europe, either. They still carry weapons, because they're rational adults.

Why the hell would you want your cops having to try to stop a crazy mental-case with a knife with just a taser & pepper spray? Sure, the cops are generally still going to win out, but it's a way unnecessary risk. Most developed countries understand this. Then again, New Zealand's out of step on a lot of stuff, no-nuclear-stuff-ever-ever-ever, that type of thing. There's progressive and there's irresponsible. Your neighbor just to the west doesn't have a huge gun crime problem either, pretty sure per capita it's even less than yours. They still arm their law enforcement officers to an extent they're not going to reasonably be out-force-capabled by the guys they're trying to bring in.

 

[Holiday]

Because I realized that too many cops are very willing to shoot anyone who aren't a whiter shade of pale for whatever reason they can find. It would be the same reason I wouldn't legally carry a real gun, unlike white folk who go around trying to intimidate with their actual firearms all out on display, and somehow don't get shot by the police.

So what you're saying is that the only thing stopping you from taking the airsoft gun seen in this photo to a public place and aiming it around is the racist police who would shoot you based on your darker skin tone. The same police that shoot and kill about 500 white people a year for the last few years.

 

[Batmannerism]

They don't deal with gun violence very often in Australia or Canada or most of Europe, either. They still carry weapons, because they're rational adults.

Why the hell would you want your cops having to try to stop a crazy mental-case with a knife with just a taser & pepper spray? Sure, the cops are generally still going to win out, but it's a way unnecessary risk. Most developed countries understand this. Then again, New Zealand's out of step on a lot of stuff, no-nuclear-stuff-ever-ever-ever, that type of thing. There's progressive and there's irresponsible. Your neighbor just to the west doesn't have a huge gun crime problem either, pretty sure per capita it's even less than yours. They still arm their law enforcement officers to an extent they're not going to reasonably be out-force-capabled by the guys they're trying to bring in.

Happy to live in an out of step country with regards to not having nuclear power...given we also have regular serious earthquakes and a relatively small landmass. We're also out of step with the US in that we have elected women leaders and universal health care, a much higher minimum wage, no tipping and higher rates of literacy - did I mention drinkable rainwater ?
We have plenty of problems too, a higher cost of living and a housing shortage -
I still think the USA is a great country
but I'd rather have our problems than yours , very happy to be out of step with you there.

As for our Police being unarmed - they do get firearms when they need them, ( they are carried in secure gun safes in the trunk of police cars) and still manage to shoot twice as many people as Victorian Police and 10 times as many people as British Police, so I'm pretty happy with their access remaining limited.

Our Police still have a low rate of shooting people and also a very low rate of being shot, again compared perhaps to the USA.

As far as us being irresponsible by not arming our Police unless you're a New Zealand Police officer or have done significant research into the subject of armed vs unarmed Police and are well acquainted with patterns of crime in New Zealand you are expressing an opinion, which doesn't carry a lot of weight.

I have refrained from making any derogatory comments about the USA thus far. Again, I think it is a great country - though not without it's problems. However, if you're going to criticize my country without acknowledging any of your own country's problems then I have about as much time for you as the rest of the world have for your President.

 

[Aximili86]

Happy to live in an out of step country with regards to not having nuclear power.

"You're part of the global warming problem nyaaa!"

Perpetuating coal through fighting progress! Heh.

Regarding the guns, yes, everyone knows there are special response units in New Zealand, same as everywhere else. That's also not going to help an officer/pair of officers set upon by three guys with baseball bats or flickknives or whatever in any immediate sense. You'll catch the guys after the fact, sure, but you've got a dead cop in the process by the time the tactical guys rock up 10 minutes later.

You can blunt that even being an issue by just issuing & training your officers with a pistol like the rest of the world bar the UK.

 

[DeadPresident]

How many times are cops murdered in New Zealand by three guys with flick knives...?

I’m all for fabricating imaginary threats to justify a viewpoint but let’s ascertain whether their knife murder rate is problematic enough to suggest arming all cops.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

So what you're saying is that the only thing stopping you from taking the airsoft gun seen in this photo to a public place and aiming it around is the racist police who would shoot you based on your darker skin tone. The same police that shoot and kill about 500 white people a year for the last few years.

Well, I am also an adult. I don't play Rambo or Terminator with other kids anymore.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

"You're part of the global warming problem nyaaa!"

Perpetuating coal through fighting progress! Heh.

Regarding the guns, yes, everyone knows there are special response units in New Zealand, same as everywhere else. That's also not going to help an officer/pair of officers set upon by three guys with baseball bats or flickknives or whatever in any immediate sense. You'll catch the guys after the fact, sure, but you've got a dead cop in the process by the time the tactical guys rock up 10 minutes later.

You can blunt that even being an issue by just issuing & training your officers with a pistol like the rest of the world bar the UK.

I can't find the numbers. for the last few years. But unless the numbers sky rocketed, that doesn't exactly seem the most likely scenario.

List of New Zealand police officers killed in the line of duty - Wikipedia

Also one might consider that the murder rate has gone down the last decade.

New Zealand at lowest murder rate in 40 years - police

 

[Holiday]

Well, I am also an adult. I don't play Rambo or Terminator with other kids anymore.

Since you think that airsoft guns can't be mistaken for the real thing without an orange tip it's good that you don't!

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Since you think that airsoft guns can't be mistaken for the real thing without an orange tip it's good that you don't!

'Anything can be mistaken as a gun if the cop says so. That is the issue. We have people justifying a shooting based on a cellphone. A cellphone looks nothing like a gun. Does that change a thing? Nope.

So many kids on my street ran around with the black cap guns they sold when I was young. From across the street, no one would know it wasn't real. Does that mean one could just get shot for playing?

 

[Sithborg]

Yeah, I think the issue that there seems to be a wide discrepancy in how various agencies handle situations that might have a gun. Which comes down to training. Having a gun, thinking someone has a gun, does not mean the officer is completely justifiable in shooting someone.