The Dark Knight Discussion of TDK finale

[Doctor Jones]

Exactly, like mentioned above, it was a pure selfish choice on his part to try and save Rachel, and I think the Joker was smart enough to assume he would do that, already seeing him jump out a window to save one person while leaving the Joker alone with a room full of innocent people.

Dent meant more to Gotham and its people, and yet Batman was willing to let him die in order to save a woman he could never be with without Dent's help anyway. Dent was the one who would allow him to hang it up, and, like he tells Alfred "I let that murdering psychopath blow him half to hell." Indeed he did, and lost the woman in the process. When you look at it that way, taking the blame for the murders was the least he could do...

Yeah, and nice catch with Bruce's line there. And Batman saving Rachel after Joker throwing her out the window leaving innocent people behind becaus God knows what he could do to them. Never thought of that before. Good job. I swear to God, you could write a thesis on this whole film.

 

[Closerframe]

I thought the ending delivered on every aspect a film should. It didn't leave me wanting more nor did I feel short changed, I felt like I just read a great novel with a spectacular finish. The most underrated character was the most important, Harvey Dent, he made the film and also made the ending feel complete. I was amazed by the Eckhart's performance and I believe he knew his destiny. Meaning he knew he was going to die but he wanted to take everyone down that he could.

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

2) Batman DOES kill when all other options are exhausted.

When?

I can't think of a single instance, outside of the films, where Batman has killed (purposely; as in, to solve a problem). Not counting the early issues.

People aren't giving him enough credit. He exists for these life and death situations. He's a master at juggling acts; he can always figure out a way, in a split second, to save everyone involved. That's why he's the freakin' Batman.

 

[The_Joker7895]

I personally am perplexed as to how people find Batman's descicion to take the fall for Harvey at the end illogical. The whole film has been set up as focusing on the relationship of these two heroes, and how Batman believes Dent to be the true hero of Gotham, and the shining symbol of hope it needs, and that Batman can never be. Batman's complete sense of altruism is what lead him to decide to preserve Harvey's image. He cares so much about enstilling hope and good within the city that he is willing to sacrifice his own image as a hero in order to keep that symbol of hope alive. As we found out even in the beginning of The Dark Knight, though people have become more accostumed to Batman's presence, they are not yet ready to accept him as their hero and savior. This is because while Batman does good, he operates in the shadows, and is barely visible to the public eye, and, of course, operates outside of the law. Dent is the perfect symbol of hope and good for Gotham because as Batman points out, he is a hero with a face. Batman's altruism is what lead him to take the fall for Harvey because as he points out, if people found out that the Joker had taken this ultimate symbol of good and made him do evil things, all hope would be lost. If someone as good as Harvey can be driven to madness and murder, what does that say about the rest of Gotham? In that sense, the descision to take the fall for Harvey is keeping completely in line with the tone established in both films. Batman is meant to inspire good and hope within people, and he himself had hoped that despite having to do a lot of the work on his own initially, his actions would eventually lead the good people of Gotham to take their city back and restore it to its former place in the world. With Dent, Batman saw the perfect person to lead Gotham in the war against crime that he had begun. In that sense, the ending makes perfect sense because Batman made the decision to keep the hope that Dent represented alive, even at the cost of his own image in the eyes of the city. What this means is that not only is Batman redefining the nature of heroism, but is also acting as the true hero behind it all. He may not be a shining ray of light, but he's a silent gaurdian, a watchful protector; a dark knight.

 

[Paste Pot Pete]

After Two-Face shoots Batman, and he flips his coin to determine his own fate, wouldn't it have been shocking if it came up bad-heads and he just shot himself in the head?

That would have been...a ballsy ending, for better or worse.

 

[Anita18]

Yeah, It wasn't so much the fight with Ras that I enjoyed, it was just the sense of chaos the scene had. The entire city was going insane, the train was going 100MPH, unable to stop, ready to destroy the city, and Gordon was frantically racing to stop the train.

And that shot of Batman blowing part of the train up and flying out..
awesome. Sheer awesome.

It was awesome, yet also pretty formulaic. The focus in TDK's climax does not involve Batman and Joker at all, but the people on the ferries. The SWAT team and final showdown would have been just another typical action set piece....aside from this ticking time bomb sitting out in the harbor.

That's why the three are in the finale. The Joker isn't. I loved how it didn't end that way with The Joker. It all came down to a man broken BY The Joker's reign of terror and the impact of it. The Joker in a sense was there, but his morals carried to Dent, leading to his downfall.

Exactly.

We were also given the white eyes every fan had always dreamed on Batman.

The first time I saw the movie, I wanted to and since I recalled fans here asking for white lenses, and they actually made an appearance!

By the end of Batman 3 I expect to see full on prep-time, detective, dark brooding loner Batman.

To be honest, I prefer this non-*****ey Batman. He's cold and calculating when he's face to face with bad guys (Maroni certainly learned the hard way), but he's reasonable with his allies, and it's clear he cares greatly about innocent civilians. Comic book Batman is fun because he's incredibly badass, but he's gotten too callous for me to root for him aside from the badassery.

Harvey's fall and Batman's galvanizing him is the real ending of the movie and the real climax.

I actually think the ferry/SWAT set piece was the climax of the film, if you were referring to story beats. It's Joker's last caper, his big grand finale, intercut with Dent kidnapping Gordon's family. Those sequences involve pretty much ALL of the characters. If that isn't a exciting climax, I dunno what is.

When Gordon starts to climb up those warehouse stairs, I'm always thinking, "Oh man, the movie's almost over now!" The film is winding down, but there has yet to be emotional and thematic closure for our 3 main characters.

My problem was that Joker never had a proper ending himself. We spend nearly 3 hours following his story, seeing him rise from a petty bank robber to a demonic terrorist who sends the entire city into chaos, making fools of the entire Police Force and their legal system, we see him destroy all that is important in Bruce Wayne's life.

We actually don't "follow" the Joker at all. We only see him on screen interacting with other characters, so we basically follow Joker through other characters' eyes. Our knowledge of his character is therefore limited to what these characters are able to observe of him. We almost never see him alone, between his nefarious plans.

People aren't giving him enough credit. He exists for these life and death situations. He's a master at juggling acts; he can always figure out a way, in a split second, to save everyone involved. That's why he's the freakin' Batman.

That's why this film is different - it asks what would happen if he could not save everyone involved, even if he was the freakin' Batman.

 

[Mr.Obycyek]

I hate the ending of this movie but if it had to go down like that the scene would have been far more dramatic if it had been Ramirez being held by Dent. By having Gordon's son a total innocent be the hostage it makes the choice redundant. Batman has to save the boy. Therefore he can get away with killing Dent in some peoples eyes as there is no other way. A total cop out.

 

[Pennyworth]

To the original poster, that wasn't the finale.

If you thought it was, you fell into Nolan's trap. This is not the end of the movie. Batman and Joker will fight forever so there will never be a definite final showdown (they even have this moment in the middle of the movie with the "western" showdown iconography...before Joker escapes prison and taking the city's case against the mob, Rachel Dawes and Harvey Dent with him).

The real ending begins with Joker's chilling "chat" with Batman afterwards. He ultimately reveals the dark truth of good and evil and its vague unending middle ground in which we are all forever entrenched. Then the movie becomes about his effects on the city, most notably the noble and heroic triumvirant of good men who tried to take him down. The real climax is Batman, Gordon and Harvey "Two-Face" Dent confronting each other and coming to terms with the ideas that the movie sabout and the Joker exposed like a festering wound.

Harvey's fall and Batman's galvanizing him is the real ending of the movie and the real climax.

what he said.

I would've like to have seen a shot of Joker (minus the makeup) sitting in a padded cell during Batman and Gordon's speech at the end. It would've given the film a sense of closure.

At first I felt the same way, not that the shot would neccessarily give the film closure, but more the Joker's run of chaos. Seeing him in Arkham would've also just been an iconic visual. Even if it was just a shot of the exterior of the building and his laughter heard.

However, having the Joker exit the film as he enters it, works for me. Bringing Harvey Two-Face, Gordon and Batman together for the finale helps complete the primary arc of the film and makes the most sense. And Batman taking on the sins of others for the betterment of Gotham was to me, perfect, and Batman 3 or not, a great ending.

 

[I Am The Knight]

After Two-Face shoots Batman, and he flips his coin to determine his own fate, wouldn't it have been shocking if it came up bad-heads and he just shot himself in the head?

That would have been...a ballsy ending, for better or worse.

I think I might have preferred that to Batman killing him again.

 

[BestGirl]

To be honest, I prefer this non-*****ey Batman. He's cold and calculating when he's face to face with bad guys (Maroni certainly learned the hard way), but he's reasonable with his allies, and it's clear he cares greatly about innocent civilians. Comic book Batman is fun because he's incredibly badass, but he's gotten too callous for me to root for him aside from the badassery.

I feel the same way. I hope the popularity of TDK leads to elements of Nolan's Batman and Joker finding their way into the comics.

 

[Steyin]

Didn't care for the sonar at all really, thought it was biggest part of the film that just doesn't fit. I remember upon watching it opening night thinking "wtf is this ****" and was in a state of shock really, trying to piece together the whole film. Of course I love the movie, but I still don't feel it adds up to a Batman film as well as Begins did. Also, after watching it so many times, many scenes just scream filler to me and I don't watch them. I jump around from scene to scene where as with Begins I could watch the whole thing no problem multiple times.

However, I think my main beef with the finale is really how they went about creating Two-Face. I was very flexible with altering things from the comics/source material, yet I felt the one thing that absolutely shouldn't have changed was the court scene scarring. The scene in the beginning of the film with Rossi pulling the gun sickens me honestly, I find it so unbelievable and cheap. I would have preferred to end the film with Harvey becomming TF as many of us had predicted way back when. I don't mind TF going after Gordon and whatnot, but personally its the events that cause it along with the sonar antics that kills the last 30 minutes for me.

 

[Doctor Jones]

About the Joker not having enough closure. I thought it was very satisfying. The Joker comes into the film without any explanation, like Jonah Nolan said before that shot of him on the sidewalk, it was like he just appeared out of thin air, like a devil. He comes in without any explantion. And near the end of the film when he's just laughing and hanging there, he thinks he won, and as we cut away from the Joker, like a devil, he thinks his job is done and just disapears in thin air, like a demon going back to hell.

 

[Mitul89]

I thought the ending was brilliant. Probably the most emotional, cool, and badass ending i've ever seen in any movie. Gordon and Batman lose in the end, but Batman takes the fall for Dent to keep Dent's prosecution alive and valid. Remember when the Mayor tells Dent "If they get anything on you, the criminals will be back on the street, followed swiftly by you and me." Batman covers Dent's descent into madness and covers up his murders in order to keep Dent's reputation alive so the prosecution that Dent made can be held in place. Just a brilliant ending. It shows Batman's resolve and steel will to keep the city clean and free of corruption....which will probably never happen - but boy it's fun to watch him try. And how about that last frame: The bat-pod racing up the ramp into the light - cut to black. Awesome stuff!

 

[Mitul89]

About the Joker not having enough closure. I thought it was very satisfying. The Joker comes into the film without any explanation, like Jonah Nolan said before that shot of him on the sidewalk, it was like he just appeared out of thin air, like a devil. He comes in without any explantion. And near the end of the film when he's just laughing and hanging there, he thinks he won, and as we cut away from the Joker, like a devil, he thinks his job is done and just disapears in thin air, like a demon going back to hell.

Yeah, I think if you explain where Joker goes after that it becomes rather unnecessary. We know he's hanging with a bunch of Swats surrounding him. He's going to Arkham. The audience isn't dumb. You don't need to explain and show everything. The Joker character ended after the speech hanging upside down. Now let's move on to Dent.

 

[Doctor Jones]

Yeah, I think if you explain where Joker goes after that it becomes rather unnecessary. We know he's hanging with a bunch of Swats surrounding him. He's going to Arkham. The audience isn't dumb. You don't need to explain and show everything. The Joker character ended after the speech hanging upside down. Now let's move on to Dent.

Well, that too and because The Joker is a form of an apparation if you will. He again, like I said, Anton Chirugh disapears without any explanation. Just that monolague and his last laugh, he felt he won, and his job is done. That was his whole point in the film. From the beginning he stepped into that mob room, his whole plan was that finest person can be broken and now that he's done it he can disapear, the job done.

 

[.:TheDarkKnight]

The ending made the movie for me.

 

[Doc Samson]

I thought the ending was brilliant. Probably the most emotional, cool, and badass ending i've ever seen in any movie. Gordon and Batman lose in the end, but Batman takes the fall for Dent to keep Dent's prosecution alive and valid. Remember when the Mayor tells Dent "If they get anything on you, the criminals will be back on the street, followed swiftly by you and me." Batman covers Dent's descent into madness and covers up his murders in order to keep Dent's reputation alive so the prosecution that Dent made can be held in place. Just a brilliant ending. It shows Batman's resolve and steel will to keep the city clean and free of corruption....which will probably never happen - but boy it's fun to watch him try. And how about that last frame: The bat-pod racing up the ramp into the light - cut to black. Awesome stuff!

Agreed, no matter how many times I watch that, I get goosebumps. It's like the proverbial "riding off into the sunset" scene turned on its ear. Certain parts of the film, for some reason, remind me of an Old Western, like Joker and Batman's "stand-off" in the street, but that ending says more about Batman and his character than at any point in the movie, or its predecessors...

 

[BestGirl]

Well, that too and because The Joker is a form of an apparation if you will. He again, like I said, Anton Chirugh disapears without any explanation. Just that monolague and his last laugh, he felt he won, and his job is done. That was his whole point in the film. From the beginning he stepped into that mob room, his whole plan was that finest person can be broken and now that he's done it he can disapear, the job done.

I never thought of it that way. That's a very cool idea.

 

[NickyTea]

I actually think the ferry/SWAT set piece was the climax of the film, if you were referring to story beats. It's Joker's last caper, his big grand finale, intercut with Dent kidnapping Gordon's family. Those sequences involve pretty much ALL of the characters. If that isn't a exciting climax, I dunno what is.

When Gordon starts to climb up those warehouse stairs, I'm always thinking, "Oh man, the movie's almost over now!" The film is winding down, but there has yet to be emotional and thematic closure for our 3 main characters.

It really depends on your definition of climax, and what criteria you hold for a story construct to fulfill that.

For me, "emotional and thematic closure", or more specifically, what it takes to attain such closure, constitutes the climax. Especially when considering there's only one defined plot element left AFTER the climax (some call it the denouement), which the final dog chase/Gordon monolgue seem to fill.

 

[Mr.Obycyek]

Batman takes the blame more out of guilt than anything else. He actually fails Dent twice. First when he picks Rachel and then when he kills him trying to save Gordon's son. He also wrongly believes that Rachel chose him over Harvey. "Dent can never know" so he feels guilty about that as well. Personally i think he should feel guilty about Lau on top of that. Criminal or not Batman brought him back to Gotham. Where he was killed. All the criminals will now go free.

 

[Doctor Jones]

After watching it five times in theaters, sometimes watching it on the internest, Gordon's speech still gives me goosbumps. I just get that shiver down my spine. Hell, reading the speech in the script gives me goosebumps. Oldman just sold it. It could of come off as cheesy, but it worked. After he says, "a dark knight." and Batman riding up into the blinding light, cape billowing, then that drum beat when it cuts to black just seals the deal.

 

[CJ]

All the criminals will now go free.

No.

Th ENTIRE REASON Batman takes the fall for Harvey is so the criminals he prosecuted WILL NOT go free. If people found out Dent was a murderer, all his prosecutions would fall apart. Batman takes the blame, so that can't happen.

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

An ending with 50 explosions and Batman swooping in front of the bat-signal just would not have worked for this movie.

I love Batman Begins, as as adrenaline-inducing as the finale was... I kinda knew everything would turn out to be fine.

On The Dark Knight however, the tension and fore-boding is almost unbearable. We have literally no idea how it will end, as it's clear Nolan's not playing with normal super-hero conventions. Plus you honestly don't know who to support... it's just... amazing

The actors (I really felt Bale was wonderfully emotive in this scene), the music, and of course Nolan just nailed it.

 

[metalhead_dave]

I hate the ending of this movie but if it had to go down like that the scene would have been far more dramatic if it had been Ramirez being held by Dent. By having Gordon's son a total innocent be the hostage it makes the choice redundant. Batman has to save the boy. Therefore he can get away with killing Dent in some peoples eyes as there is no other way. A total cop out.

Harry?

 

[Mr.Obycyek]

Your wrong Cjmcray. Lau is dead. Harvey's prosecution will fall apart and the criminals will go free. Without Lau they all go free hence the reason Gordon states that Lau is the priority when they are about to raid the ship.