The Dark Knight Discussion of TDK finale

[Twofaceguy]

I just wish Nolan didint kill Two Face. Seriously.

 

[Two-Face=Badass]

I just wish Nolan didint kill Two Face. Seriously.

The worst part of that for me is that Batman did it. That's the biggest problem with the climax for me, he spends the whole film quoting his one rule about not killing people and then kills Dent at the end. Yes it was accidental, but he still kills him and doesn't really seem fazed by it.

 

[Drz]

I would say it was Two-face himself who got himself killed, he chose the use the gun while Batman tried to negotiate him out of it. It was Two-face who got himself killed, you can't blame Batman for Two-face's death.

 

[KnightBatman]

When people say that they hate that Two Face was killed off makes me feel bad to say one of my many favorite moments in the film was Batman saving Jimmy from Two Face
Becauses seriously I loved how Batman came out of nowhere when Harvey flipped the coin that would decided Jimmy's life and pushes them off the edge. Then when Gordon goes to the edge, I loved that shot of Batman holding onto the edge and you can see Gordon's son and the heroic and triumphant part of the music begins when Jimmy looks up at Gordon.

Even if Batman sort of bent his one rule, because he indirectly killed Dent, he just tried to save Jimmy and in the process accidentally killed Dent, it seems like he made up for it with sacrificing himself by being the villain and saving Gotham's faith.

Really I thought the whole ending was completely well done. The SWAT fight was pretty easy to understad. Hostages dressed like clowns. Batman has to save them from the SWAT who don't know the real bad guys are the doctors. That was a very heroic and cool scene to see. Batman just owns people left and right lol

Fight with Joker was actually longer than I expected since Joker isn't a fighter but Nolan was smart in how he made Joker last long in the fight by fighting dirty and getting help from the dogs and foreign objects.

And of course like I said there was Batman saving Jimmy and from there to the end. It was all well shot and flowed beautifully with that awesome score. And every single thing was perfect. Especially Batman on the batpod riding away with Gordon's final lines.
"He's a silent guardian. A watchful protector."
Final shot showing Batman riding up a ramp with a bright light in front of him looking very symbolic and heroic followed by Gordon's last words "A dark knight."
Which to me, made the ending less sad and actually seem more happy because Batman "can take it."

This whole movie to me was everything I could dream of for a Batman movie. The ending just sealed the deal

 

[El Payaso]

I would say it was Two-face himself who got himself killed, he chose the use the gun while Batman tried to negotiate him out of it. It was Two-face who got himself killed, you can't blame Batman for Two-face's death.

With that reasoning, every criminal that puts other peoples' lives in danger could be justifiedly killed by Batman. Dent didn't jump; he didn't kill himself. It was Batman.

When people say that they hate that Two Face was killed off makes me feel bad to say one of my many favorite moments in the film was Batman saving Jimmy from Two Face

Becauses seriously I loved how Batman came out of nowhere when Harvey flipped the coin that would decided Jimmy's life and pushes them off the edge. Then when Gordon goes to the edge, I loved that shot of Batman holding onto the edge and you can see Gordon's son and the heroic and triumphant part of the music begins when Jimmy looks up at Gordon.

Even if Batman sort of bent his one rule, because he indirectly killed Dent, he just tried to save Jimmy and in the process accidentally killed Dent, it seems like he made up for it with sacrificing himself by being the villain and saving Gotham's faith.

Batman made the right choice. He chose to save the innocent person, but I kinda agree that the issue should have been addressed, given all the attention Nolan's movies have put on Batman's non killing rule.

 

[Batman137]

The worst part of that for me is that Batman did it. That's the biggest problem with the climax for me, he spends the whole film quoting his one rule about not killing people and then kills Dent at the end. Yes it was accidental, but he still kills him and doesn't really seem fazed by it.

But thats why he takes the blame for Dent at the end. He feels guilty.

 

[Drz]

With that reasoning, every criminal that puts other peoples' lives in danger could be justifiedly killed by Batman. Dent didn't jump; he didn't kill himself. It was Batman.

But Batman doesn't intentionally kill, and it was the criminals who created Batman in the first place. Crime never leads to a happy ending. :P

 

[CJ]

This is where you're wrong, sir. TDK
Your disapointement with the end is only feuled by The Joker and his character. You're not seing the big picture. The whole film was about those three men. All effected by The Joker in different but in the same ways. They come together form the Joker's riegn of chaos. Dent comes to terms with himself, possibly knowing he will die, wanting to kill the people who he thought was responsible for Rachel's death. Batman was there to save Gordon and try to bring back Dent, even though it was inevitbale. Gordon went to save his family, but all at the same time, it's about these three men coming together and trying to come to terms.

I didn't have a problem with the ending of the storyline for Batman, Gordon and Dent, I thought it was a nice filmmaking choice to have time to "wind down" after the chaos of Joker, and bring things back to the relationship of Batman, Gordon and Dent, seeing how they changed over the course of the movie.

My problem was that Joker never had a proper ending himself. We spend nearly 3 hours following his story, seeing him rise from a petty bank robber to a demonic terrorist who sends the entire city into chaos, making fools of the entire Police Force and their legal system, we see him destroy all that is important in Bruce Wayne's life. We see that Batman ousted by society at the end, just like Joker said, "they'll cast you out"

I agree that people shouldnt just see the movie solely for The Joker, there is a real story beneath that, but the relationship between Batman and Joker is and always has been, the driving force of the comics, cartoons, movies, etc. He's Batman's greatest adversary, and one of the major parts of the story to TDK.

And in the end? He's just left hanging there, while Dent, an important character, but not as important as other characters, like Batman and Joker, gets a 10 minute speech. We never see what happens next for Joker. e dont see him in a padded cell, which I personally think would've given the film a real sense of closure. We never see Bruce reflecting on all of the chaos caused throughout the film, we dont see Bruce mourning Rachel, there's a lot of loose ends that were never tied up.

 

[Doctor Jones]

I didn't have a problem with the ending of the storyline for Batman, Gordon and Dent, I thought it was a nice filmmaking choice to have time to "wind down" after the chaos of Joker, and bring things back to the relationship of Batman, Gordon and Dent, seeing how they changed over the course of the movie.

My problem was that Joker never had a proper ending himself. We spend nearly 3 hours following his story, seeing him rise from a petty bank robber to a demonic terrorist who sends the entire city into chaos, making fools of the entire Police Force and their legal system, we see him destroy all that is important in Bruce Wayne's life. We see that Batman ousted by society at the end, just like Joker said, "they'll cast you out"

I agree that people shouldnt just see the movie solely for The Joker, there is a real story beneath that, but the relationship between Batman and Joker is and always has been, the driving force of the comics, cartoons, movies, etc. He's Batman's greatest adversary, and one of the major parts of the story to TDK.

And in the end? He's just left hanging there, while Dent, an important character, but not as important as other characters, like Batman and Joker, gets a 10 minute speech. We never see what happens next for Joker. e dont see him in a padded cell, which I personally think would've given the film a real sense of closure. We never see Bruce reflecting on all of the chaos caused throughout the film, we dont see Bruce mourning Rachel, there's a lot of loose ends that were never tied up.

At first, I was surprised about the Joker just hanging there and that was the last of him. But now after five times seeing it, I love it. I too wanted Joker to show up in an Arkham cell. But I see where you're coming from.

But now, that monolague makes more sense, we really have no reason to continue the Joker's story after that point. His whole point in the beginning was to prove that anyone can be corrupted. It came off that way in his monolague. Now since that's happened, we see the effects of that. Going right to Dent. It's the next step of the Joker. The next cycle of him.

 

[BestGirl]

I just wish Nolan didint kill Two Face. Seriously.

Well, I believe Emma Thomas said that the ending was deliberately left ambiguous, so if you want to imagine that he's still alive, you can do so.

Batman made the right choice. He chose to save the innocent person, but I kinda agree that the issue should have been addressed, given all the attention Nolan's movies have put on Batman's non killing rule.

Addressing the no killing rule would've ruined the ambiguity of Harvey's fate. I wonder how/if they'll handle this in the next movie.

But thats why he takes the blame for Dent at the end. He feels guilty.

I read something similar on another board. Someone said that Batman may have taken the blame as penance for allowing the Joker situation to spiral out of control. I like that idea.

We never see Bruce reflecting on all of the chaos caused throughout the film, we dont see Bruce mourning Rachel, there's a lot of loose ends that were never tied up.

We might see those things in the threequel.

 

[Drz]

You also have to remember that Batman killing or not is a matter of perspective. For example: Joker made him break his 1 rule when he had to choose between Harvey and Rachel, and when he chose to save Rachel he chose to kill her in truth.

 

[Two-Face=Badass]

You also have to remember that Batman killing or not is a matter of perspective. For example: Joker made him break his 1 rule when he had to choose between Harvey and Rachel, and when he chose to save Rachel he chose to kill her in truth.

What? No he didn't, he saved one of them. A far better example would be Ra's in BB which is also I problem I have.

Still, I don't get this "Dent killed himself" logic, Batman may have saved Jimmy, Dent may have been collateral damage, but Batman still pushed him off the edge to his death = Batman killed him.

A great ending the film had yes, but that part kinda killed the whole "Batman doesn't kill" that was repeated through the film.

Mind you, props to the poster who said Batman took the blame not the Joker because he felt guilty, I like that. Still, I'd rather he atleast died by someone else's hand.

 

[NickyTea]

He kills Two face to save the image of Dent.

The city deserved that image of Dent, in Batman's eyes. The mentality of Two-face killed any chance of him meaning that same thing for the city. He had to go. Batman realized that. An idealized falsity taking place of savage truth.

I mean, to get that point across in the movie they had a montage of several other parallel thematic supports within the plot itself...and still, it WHOOSHED right over so many heads.

 

[DACrowe]

I just wish Nolan didint kill Two Face. Seriously.

Why? Nolan obviously doesn't want to use him again and what he had to say about the character he put in his masterpiece. He then took it a step further by utilizing the character (with his death) in a way the comics never have and never will that just cemented the tragedy and brilliance of this movie.

Why do you wish it was different? Nolan was never going to use him in BB3, so other than a blind wish for fedelity to the comics, there is no reason to wish for it.

 

[Mr.Obycyek]

I'll take the truth no matter how painful over a lie everytime. Batman & Gordon are still trying to control things at the end. They have not learned anything. Batman shows that despite what he says to The Joker he has no real faith in the people of Gotham in being able to handle the truth about Harvey Dent. So they cover it up. This will do more harm than good in the end.

 

[Mr.Obycyek]

I think the character of Two-Face was only just beginning and so for me killing him off was a terrible decision by the Nolans. Was Bruce Waynes story finished when his whole reason for revenge (Joe Chill) was killed? Of course not.

 

[dark_b]

The worst part of that for me is that Batman did it. That's the biggest problem with the climax for me, he spends the whole film quoting his one rule about not killing people and then kills Dent at the end. Yes it was accidental, but he still kills him and doesn't really seem fazed by it.

i think every kid on this world knwo s tha twhen batmans says that he doesnt kill he means that he :

-he doesnt break the neck
-uses a gun to kill someone
-throws them from the building
-...

this is what batman thinks. examle.if the only way to save gordon would be to let joker fall down he would do it. he would not think to himself.........''hmmm i dont kill so i will let gordon die''.

 

[dark_b]

What? No he didn't, he saved one of them. A far better example would be Ra's in BB which is also I problem I have.

Still, I don't get this "Dent killed himself" logic, Batman may have saved Jimmy, Dent may have been collateral damage, but Batman still pushed him off the edge to his death = Batman killed him.

A great ending the film had yes, but that part kinda killed the whole "Batman doesn't kill" that was repeated through the film.

Mind you, props to the poster who said Batman took the blame not the Joker because he felt guilty, I like that. Still, I'd rather he atleast died by someone else's hand.

batman also pushed gordons son.

so lets play this game

 

[dark_b]

Why? Nolan obviously doesn't want to use him again and what he had to say about the character he put in his masterpiece. He then took it a step further by utilizing the character (with his death) in a way the comics never have and never will that just cemented the tragedy and brilliance of this movie.

Why do you wish it was different? Nolan was never going to use him in BB3, so other than a blind wish for fedelity to the comics, there is no reason to wish for it.

i agree with this post.

in the comics they can not kill him because they have to use him. they could have killed him in a graphic novel that ends.

 

[BestGirl]

He kills Two face to save the image of Dent.

I don't think Batman killed Two-Face on purpose. I think it was an accident, or possibly just a desperation move.

I'll take the truth no matter how painful over a lie everytime. Batman & Gordon are still trying to control things at the end. They have not learned anything. Batman shows that despite what he says to The Joker he has no real faith in the people of Gotham in being able to handle the truth about Harvey Dent. So they cover it up. This will do more harm than good in the end.

Well, Batman and Gordon only had a few minutes with which to make a decision. Maybe if they'd had more time to think about it they'd agree with you. Interesting point about them still trying to control things. I guess schemers can't stop being schemers. t:

I think the character of Two-Face was only just beginning and so for me killing him off was a terrible decision by the Nolans. Was Bruce Waynes story finished when his whole reason for revenge (Joe Chill) was killed? Of course not.

First off, it's not certain that he's dead, though I really doubt we'll see him in the threequel. For another thing, I don't know what you could do with Two-Face in another movie. He's gotten revenge so what's next? Should he become a mobster? That doesn't make much sense. The Nolans came up with the perfect ending to Two-Face's tragic story.

 

[Saint]

I'll take the truth no matter how painful over a lie everytime. Batman & Gordon are still trying to control things at the end. They have not learned anything. Batman shows that despite what he says to The Joker he has no real faith in the people of Gotham in being able to handle the truth about Harvey Dent. So they cover it up. This will do more harm than good in the end.

Practically, the decision is less about the average Joe reaction to Dent being a murderer, and more about the revelation meaning the end of Harvey's case against the mobsters of Gotham, undoing the most significant step towards stemming crime in Gotham in decades. Aside from the more direct negative effects, that's what would have created the loss of hope that Gordon talked about.

 

[JL Unlimited]

What? No he didn't, he saved one of them. A far better example would be Ra's in BB which is also I problem I have.

Actually, he does kill Rachel indirectly as in the eyes of the Joker. Before the Joker sends Batman off, he tells him that "Killing is a choice" and so gives him the choice of who he wants to save and thus who he ends up killing. He throws a wrench in the whole thing by telling Batman the wrong addresses.

Isn't this the whole point the Joker was trying to make with Batman by setting up this hostage situation with Rachel and Dent along with the needed diversion to escape and capture Lau?

"You have all these rules and you think they're going to save you"

"I only have one rule"

"Then that's the rule you"ll have to break to know the truth"

"Which is?"

"The only sensible way to live in this world is without rules...and tonight you're going to break your one rule"

 

[JL Unlimited]

HarryGucha has been talking about it repeatedly in every thread. The DVD/BluRay thread started to get a bit off-topic becuase of it, so I decided to make this thread for the discussion of the end of the film.

I personally considered TDK to be a fantastic film. The Bats/Joker fight at the end was badly filmed, (it was so darkly lit in the scene that it was difficult to tell what was going on) but I still loved the scene, especially Bats response to Joker's scar question "No.. but I know how you got THESE!" (Shouldn't Joekr have died from those blades? They struck him right in the throat, and earlier in the film, the same blades were able to pierce SOLID STEEL when Bruce accidentally set them off. Eh.)

You really need to see this movie a few more times. It's impossible to absorb everything on one viewing. Like another poster said, the movie has so many layers that you peel after each viewing.

For example, the Joker was not struck in the throat by the blades. They only grazed his face and you can see the cut on his cheek when he's hanging upside down.

 

[Rasputin911]

We've all seen the Dark Knight. Not everyone has seen No country for old men. And now you've ruined that film by discussing it, I'm not going to get as much enjoyment out of it. Use the spoiler tags for crying out loud!

we haven't spoiled anything. its something you see in the first 10 minutes

 

[Sonic1002]

I personally considered TDK to be a fantastic film. The Bats/Joker fight at the end was badly filmed, (it was so darkly lit in the scene that it was difficult to tell what was going on) but I still loved the scene, especially Bats response to Joker's scar question "No.. but I know how you got THESE!" (Shouldn't Joekr have died from those blades? They struck him right in the throat, and earlier in the film, the same blades were able to pierce SOLID STEEL when Bruce accidentally set them off. Eh.)

This has been one of my few complaints about the movie. I don't think it hits his throat, but I honestly CANNOT tell where those blades hit him. You can see some knock the detonator out of his hand, but past that, you cannot tell where it hits him.
...And I'm also convinced that he killed Harvey and thus defeated half the point of the movie, seeing as Joker had been trying to get Batz to kill him, which he would do... then he goes and tackles Harvey off a building... But that's just me though.

But besides these, and a paltry few other complaints, This is the best Batman movie ever made and it has become one of, if not my, favorite movie of all time.