The Dark Knight Discussion of TDK finale

[The Chris]

Maybe he's talking about the bartender. I hope that's the case.

 

[CJ]

Old guy at the bar? I'll assume you mean Wertz. And he had nothing to do with Rachel's murder? LOL Were we watching the same film? He drove Rachel to the warehouse where...get this...she was murdered!

I only saw the movie once, but I do not recall any scene with Rachel being driven to the warehouse by him.

And yes, I agree Two-Face's mind was warped, but the fact that he chose to let The Joker, who is a homocidal maniac, live, but kill other people was pretty darn stupid.

 

[NickyTea]

Its incidental - he does it for amusement.

"I got here the same way the coin did."
He gives it power. He believes in the inherent justice of fate. As an extension of death if you cross his path. He is put straight, brought down to the level of Lleweln when he is hit by the car that ran the red light. (He followed his path, his causal relationship of rules, yet still the unexpected "human" element, brought him down to size.)

 

[The Chris]

I only saw the movie once, but I do not recall any scene with Rachel being driven to the warehouse by him.

And yes, I agree Two-Face's mind was warped, but the fact that he chose to let The Joker, who is a homocidal maniac, live, but kill other people was pretty darn stupid.

Wuertz drove Harvey, so he was still in on it, still scum, and in Harvey's mind still had to be judged.

And well, the coin said live for Joker, so there you go. Harvey follows the coin 100%

 

[animexcel]

I'd rather see a visual of the sonar effect than it being in live shots when Fox is giving info to Batman..it's simply a blueprint for the audience watching of what Batman's seeing in those sonar lenses, and it wasn't overdone at all.

 

[NickyTea]

"Sonar, like a ---"
"Like a Submarine, Mr. Wayne"

=

WORTH IT.

 

[chintai80]

The finale was not anything I expected. But in a good way.
It truly showed Batman's selflessness and altruism.

I agree with Solidus' comments about the ferry situation + finally seeing Batman owning swat and bad guys in one scene was t:

 

[Doctor Jones]

And yet when Joker points a gun to his own face, with Harvey's finger on the trigger, he refuses to kill him, but instead decides to murder innocent people, all becuase of "chance"

You don't get it. Now that he's lost everything, he's given up all sense of responsibility and now leaves it up to fate because that seems to be the only fair thing in life for him at that point.

 

[batman11]

I only saw the movie once, but I do not recall any scene with Rachel being driven to the warehouse by him.

And yes, I agree Two-Face's mind was warped, but the fact that he chose to let The Joker, who is a homocidal maniac, live, but kill other people was pretty darn stupid.

Ahh alright. It was actually my mistake. I meant to say that Wertz drove Harvey. Maroni confessed Ramirez drove Rachel, so there were both in on it, and thus, not innocent.

 

[Larrygucha]

I personally thought it was fantastic!

 

[batman11]

I personally thought it was fantastic!

 

[LegendaryCaleb]

im guessin thats harry looking to get banned....just a thought

 

[LegendaryCaleb]

I thought since Harry was such a legend here, we should start a cult, by all adopting a similar sounding name. I'm not Harry.

I think itd be ******ed to start anything related to that Legend of spamming and idiocy

 

[batman11]

just a thought. kind of like the fake batmen. t:

Except for the fact that it's not at all like that.

 

[Solidus]

I only saw the movie once, but I do not recall any scene with Rachel being driven to the warehouse by him.

And yes, I agree Two-Face's mind was warped, but the fact that he chose to let The Joker, who is a homocidal maniac, live, but kill other people was pretty darn stupid.

1. Read up a little more on Two-Face.
2. Watch the movie at least one more time.

Why these things, because they fit perfectly into the plot, and the character that is Two-Face. And the biggest thing, is that the first time I saw the film, it was not very high up in my eyes. But the more you see it the more layers you peel back, the more it is solid and quite air tight of a plot.

A man that has lost everything, trying to do things the right way, lost everything important to him, and Jones said it best, he leaves it up to fate, because that is all that is important to him anymore, the only thing that does seem fair in an unfair world. Chance. It actually is probably the best part of the entire plot. That scene with him and The Joker was classic.

 

[Mr.Obycyek]

I think the ending is a badly thought out mess personally. "5 people dead two of them cops." Dent only kills three people. Wuertz, Maroni & his driver. Some people say that his bodyguard was also in the car but if you watch the scene it would be impossible for him to get into the car in time as it takes off the second Maroni gets in it. Others say that it must mean one of the cops in the hospital but there were two cops killed in the hospital and any way you look at it it does not add up. I assume Ramirez is just assumed dead by Gordon and has actually just gone into hiding but that still leaves one mystery victim. That is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the mess of the ending though. The film raises questions at the end but none of them seem very well thought out. Here are some of the questions I have.

1. What is the fake story Gordon & co put out regarding the death of Harvey Dent?"
Is it that he died in the hospital? In which case The Joker is to blame for his death.
Or is it that he died during the SWAT rescue in the skyscraper? In which case the police, the joker or even Batman could be responsible. If they are going to pin Dent's death on the joker then they may as well pin the other deaths on him as well.

2. How is Gordon going to be able to pin the crimes on Batman? It is common knowledge that Batman does not kill people this is highlighted by Scarecrow, Maroni and Fox etc through numerous scenes.

3. Why is there so little reaction from Batman regarding Dent's Death? If Dent is dead at the end then Batman has killed him. He has broken his rule to protect an innocent but in doing so he undermines the rest of the movie upto that point. Yet there is very little reaction from Batman about having done this.

4. How can Batman continue to operate when in the eyes of the public Batman is now a killer? This surely has to be rectified at some point in the future meaning that Dents actions will become common knowledge but who will reveal it? Dent is dead, Ramirez has no reason to speak out which means either Batman or Gordon and his family will have to tell the truth which hardly seems likely.

Don't get me wrong folks I really enjoyed The Dark Knight but the ending just left me feeling confused and repeated viewings have done nothing to clear this up. I also think killing off Harvey Dent was a total waste of a wonderful character. Yet I think there are a few clues that he could actually just be unconscious at the end. "Any chance you gave us of saving this city dies with Harvey's REPUTATION." Strange you would think Gordon would say dies with Harvey. Unless of course he is not really dead at all.

 

[Doctor Jones]

I think the ending is a badly thought out mess personally. "5 people dead two of them cops." Dent only kills three people. Wuertz, Maroni & his driver. Some people say that his bodyguard was also in the car but if you watch the scene it would be impossible for him to get into the car in time as it takes off the second Maroni gets in it. Others say that it must mean one of the cops in the hospital but there were two cops killed in the hospital and any way you look at it it does not add up. I assume Ramirez is just assumed dead by Gordon and has actually just gone into hiding but that still leaves one mystery victim. That is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the mess of the ending though. The film raises questions at the end but none of them seem very well thought out. Here are some of the questions I have.

1. What is the fake story Gordon & co put out regarding the death of Harvey Dent?"
Is it that he died in the hospital? In which case The Joker is to blame for his death.
Or is it that he died during the SWAT rescue in the skyscraper? In which case the police, the joker or even Batman could be responsible. If they are going to pin Dent's death on the joker then they may as well pin the other deaths on him as well.

2. How is Gordon going to be able to pin the crimes on Batman? It is common knowledge that Batman does not kill people this is highlighted by Scarecrow, Maroni and Fox etc through numerous scenes.

3. Why is there so little reaction from Batman regarding Dent's Death? If Dent is dead at the end then Batman has killed him. He has broken his rule to protect an innocent but in doing so he undermines the rest of the movie upto that point. Yet there is very little reaction from Batman about having done this.[/quote]

Hold up. Batman did not break his one rule. He did what was best. He didn't think about the outcome. His main concern was saving a little boy in the arms of a madman. The only way he could stop him was doing it when Dent flipped the coin. And the edge and the fall, Batman probably didn't even know there was a fall there. He didn't care about what would happen. He just took that oppourtune moment to save him, not thinking or caring what happened next. Hell, after they fall, there's a shot of Batman looking up at the height they fell, looking surprised. And besides, I think Dent knew he was going to die. Hence, "You think I want to escape from this? There is no escape from this!" If you take Nolan's realism into the mix, Dent's burnt face would be infected and he wouldn't have long to live at all.

[/quote]4. How can Batman continue to operate when in the eyes of the public Batman is now a killer? This surely has to be rectified at some point in the future meaning that Dents actions will become common knowledge but who will reveal it? Dent is dead, Ramirez has no reason to speak out which means either Batman or Gordon and his family will have to tell the truth which hardly seems likely.

Don't get me wrong folks I really enjoyed The Dark Knight but the ending just left me feeling confused and repeated viewings have done nothing to clear this up. I also think killing off Harvey Dent was a total waste of a wonderful character. Yet I think there are a few clues that he could actually just be unconscious at the end. "Any chance you gave us of saving this city dies with Harvey's REPUTATION." Strange you would think Gordon would say dies with Harvey. Unless of course he is not really dead at all.[/quote]

That other stuff is opened to us, dude. I don't know if it will pick up like the in the third film or what. But we don't know. We can only think of what happens next. That's the beauty of the end of BB and this film. It's opened to you.

 

[Doctor Jones]

1. Read up a little more on Two-Face.
2. Watch the movie at least one more time.

Why these things, because they fit perfectly into the plot, and the character that is Two-Face. And the biggest thing, is that the first time I saw the film, it was not very high up in my eyes. But the more you see it the more layers you peel back, the more it is solid and quite air tight of a plot.

A man that has lost everything, trying to do things the right way, lost everything important to him, and Jones said it best, he leaves it up to fate, because that is all that is important to him anymore, the only thing that does seem fair in an unfair world. Chance. It actually is probably the best part of the entire plot. That scene with him and The Joker was classic.

Indeed. One of my favorite scenes. I don't have one though. t: By the end of the film, Dent has gone mad, abandoning everything he believes in because of what he lost. The same justice system that he once used is useless to him now. That's some of the unfair part. Because it was his justice system and his idealist views that got back at him. Wuertz and Ramirez and everything he fought for, plus, Gotham believing in him. He doesn't believe in anything anymore, except chance, because fairness was one of the things that lead to his downfall, for he leaves it to chance.

 

[Mr.Obycyek]

Batman did break his rule if he killed Dent. He never meant to kill him and was just trying to save Gordon's son but that does not change the fact he did kill him. His actions caused Dent to be killed. Not forgetting that Batman could just have easily killed the boy when he launched himself at them.

As for Dent he may have wanted to die but as the coin decided he was to live he would have to abide by that wouldn't he.

 

[Rasputin911]

Batman did break his rule if he killed Dent. He never meant to kill him and was just trying to save Gordon's son but that does not change the fact he did kill him. His actions caused Dent to be killed. Not forgetting that Batman could just have easily killed the boy when he launched himself at them.

As for Dent he may have wanted to die but as the coin decided he was to live he would have to abide by that wouldn't he.

He's Batman...not Mahatma Gandhi

His rule is to not to kill in cold blood, not to never take a life no matter the circumstances. He allowed Ras to die as well in BB

 

[hatebox]

To say the Joker should have had a concrete conclusion because it was his film couldn't miss the point more.

 

[knifeedgedave]

We've all seen the Dark Knight. Not everyone has seen No country for old men. And now you've ruined that film by discussing it, I'm not going to get as much enjoyment out of it. Use the spoiler tags for crying out loud!

 

[Doc Samson]

The actual ending with Dent was perfect. Its the final battle that I have problems with. First the ferry sequence was dragged out too long and the whole "when the chips are down these civilized people will actually be altruistic and show compassion for their fellow man including a hardened criminal who refuses to detonate the other boat" statement was too in your face. Ok, we get it. There is hope for humanity as unrealistic as it was portrayed. Call me cynical but I think in real life one of those boats would have blown up.

Then there was the whole SWAT/hostages/doctors fight in Trump Tower. It was poorly shot, poorly edited, and very confusing as to who is targeting whom, who is doing what, and who the bad guys were. Its an isolated incident in an otherwise perfectly directed film. Which makes me think that Chris Nolan just can't do final battles. Where he usually balances complexity well he just can't do it in a final action sequence. Twice now in Batman Begins and Dark Knight I've been disappointed with the battle b/w Batman and the major villain.

This is my only "problem" with the ending, if you can call it that. I just figured, given the approach and tone of everything else, that Nolan would go the full way with it, honestly I feel that would have been the most ironic, interesting, and powerful way to do it. Realistically, either one, or both, of the ferries would've blown each other sky high (or themselves sky high, you never know with the Joker). I do believe however, that it may have been a bit much, even for a film as bleak as TDK. They still have to cater a little to the summer blockbuster sensibilities, which I think explains the way Nolan chose to end both BB & TDK

 

[Anjow1060]

Batman did break his rule if he killed Dent. He never meant to kill him and was just trying to save Gordon's son but that does not change the fact he did kill him. His actions caused Dent to be killed. Not forgetting that Batman could just have easily killed the boy when he launched himself at them.

As for Dent he may have wanted to die but as the coin decided he was to live he would have to abide by that wouldn't he.

I'm afraid a lot of people in here don't understand Batman. The dude ain't perfect.

His idealism is to not aim to kill people in thirst of revenge. THAT is the driving point behind him. He doesn't maliciously kill people. But his main goal is to save others, to save the innocent first. The guilty are saved second.

A lot of people overlook the symbolism that goes on in that moment. As Batman leaps to save the boy the coin is flipped. Bringing up the theme of chance. Chance has two sides, good and bad.

When Batman saves a villain like the Joker - at one point or another, sometime in the future the Joker will kill someone again. Thus the bad side of taking the chance on saving Joker.

When Batman saved the boy, chance killed the guilty party. And Batman had to take the blame for it.

The point of the coin flip and landing on heads was a symbolic representation of Batman's choices. He does something good (save a villain like Joker), something bad will happen (people die in the future). He does something bad (take the rap for Dent) something good will happen(the city maintains it's hope).

Batman understood the for the best of GORDON, he had to save his son. Imagine if he had let Jimmy die. What Two-face would have done to Jim Gordon? Gotham city would not have survived Dent and Gordon falling to madness. The Joker would win.

NOT TO MENTION - we don't know what happened while Batman, Dent and kid went over the edge. Batman could have been trying to save Dent but just couldn't do it. Which was an attribute as to why he's so identifiable as a hero. He's not perfect. He's not superman. He's not even full on Batman yet. He's growing towards it. Making mistakes (as pointed out earlier on) and learning from them. Last movie he was attacking cops (as was he this movie lol) but still. That's not who he's supposed to be. He's not making it personal, but he's learning to deal with the personal sacrifices he has to make to become Batman. By the end of Batman 3 I expect to see full on prep-time, detective, dark brooding loner Batman. All we need is the love of his life, Catwoman to flat out reject him (in the way that Rachel did but Alfred covered up) for him to be lost to the beast of Batman forever.

[/rant]

- Jow

 

[Doctor Jones]

Yup, Batman is great because we sometimes hate the decisions what he makes. Like Batman dropping Maroni off the building for instance. When I first saw that, I was shocked but smiled and shook my head. That's what Batman does. His methods we don't entirely agree with. He's not like Superman or Spider-Man where we agree with everything they do. Batman does not kill, yes. But that doesn't mean he can't bend the rules.

And people complaining about beating the crap out of the Joker in the interroggation room need to shut the hell up. This isn't Batman year five. This is Batman year one. He's still beginning. He's never dealt with this kind of ciminal before. He's used to intimidation and getting his answers by beating the crap out of people. Now Joker is completly the opposite. It won't work for him, now Batman is not in control, which he is so used to fromm intimidation. Hence, "You have nothing! Nothing to threaten me with! Nothing do do with all your strength!"