The Dark Knight Discussion of TDK finale

[gwynplaine]

I am glad I got to briefly see the white lenses just like in the comics.

 

[Saint]

Batman certainly did break his rule when he killed Dent--and that's the point. He can't realistically live up to this ideal of keeping everyone alive, even if he wants to. He doesn't abandon the rule, he doesn't believe in it any less, but sometimes it's a standard that cannot be met.

 

[mxn36]

3. Why is there so little reaction from Batman regarding Dent's Death? If Dent is dead at the end then Batman has killed him. He has broken his rule to protect an innocent but in doing so he undermines the rest of the movie upto that point. Yet there is very little reaction from Batman about having done this.

I have to agree with what people have written here, that **** happens and Batman can't always live up to his rule, and that it doesn't make his rule any less important.

But regardless of whether he did or didn't break it, that's just not the driving issue of that scene. Batman just nearly died trying to save Gordan's son, who almost died as well, from the hands of the man who was supposed to be Gotham's savior and who DID die, and is currently lying there on the floor, DEAD.

All of that overshadows the question of whether Batman broke his rule or not.

I was much more satisfied watching Gordan and Batman reflecting on the ramifications of Dent's actions and what to do about it, than had Batman stood up and gone "Oh my God! Did I just kill him? Did I just break my rule??? Gordon, you know I didn't mean to do that. So it doesn't really count right? RIGHT?!?!"

It's not the main point of the scene, which is that Dent's action's and death is more than the loss of one man. It's the death of hope for Gotham, so in a way, the death of Gotham. It's Gotham that is important. It's Gotham that the Joker was trying to burn. It's Gotham that Batman and Gordon are trying to save. It's Gotham's fate that lied upon Dent's reputation.

To have shown Batman somehow reflecting remorse or dissapointment in himself for breaking his rule would have undermined that point, by narrowly restricting the focus strictly to Dent the man.

Now I'm not saying that killing Dent wasn't an issue at all. It clearly was and the question of whether Batman broke his rule is obviously a valid one that has sparked lots of interesting discussion with great points on both sides. I'm just saying that it was a good decision on the filmmakers part not to make it an issue directly brought up or referenced to in the world of the film. I think doing so would've added nothing, and would have disrupted the pace and focus of an amazing ending.

 

[nimrodson]

The finale was the most powerful moment of the film for me. Wrapped up nicely in a poetic and subtle way. We don't need a new villain. Batman is the new villain. That's a wicked cool concept. Nolan wins.

 

[BestGirl]

I think the ending is a badly thought out mess personally. "5 people dead two of them cops." Dent only kills three people. Wuertz, Maroni & his driver. Some people say that his bodyguard was also in the car but if you watch the scene it would be impossible for him to get into the car in time as it takes off the second Maroni gets in it. Others say that it must mean one of the cops in the hospital but there were two cops killed in the hospital and any way you look at it it does not add up. I assume Ramirez is just assumed dead by Gordon and has actually just gone into hiding but that still leaves one mystery victim. That is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the mess of the ending though. The film raises questions at the end but none of them seem very well thought out. Here are some of the questions I have.

It's been a long time since I've seen TDK, and I only saw it a couple of times, but I'll try and answer your questions.

Two-Face killed the bodyguard before he got in the car. I think people claim that you can see Two-Face pull the bodyguard offscreen before Maroni gets in the vehicle. Other than the bodyguard, there was Wuertz (cop #1), Maroni, Maroni's driver, and either Ramirez (possible cop #2) or the black policeman at the hospital (other possible cop #2). The other (white?) cop at the hospital just disappears, IIRC, so we don't know if he's dead. Maybe he was working for the Joker.

1. What is the fake story Gordon & co put out regarding the death of Harvey Dent?"
Is it that he died in the hospital? In which case The Joker is to blame for his death.
Or is it that he died during the SWAT rescue in the skyscraper? In which case the police, the joker or even Batman could be responsible. If they are going to pin Dent's death on the joker then they may as well pin the other deaths on him as well.

We have no idea how they're going to spin Dent's death. Maybe they'll claim Dent was killed at the hospital, like you said, but they could also claim that Batman kidnapped Gordon's family, Dent tried to save them, and Batman killed him. I don't think they're going to try and pin any of the murders on the Joker because it's hugely unethical to frame a person for a crime he didn't commit. Much more unethical than taking the blame for a crime.

2. How is Gordon going to be able to pin the crimes on Batman? It is common knowledge that Batman does not kill people this is highlighted by Scarecrow, Maroni and Fox etc through numerous scenes.

Everyone will probably assume that Batman snapped under the pressure the Joker was putting on the city.

3. Why is there so little reaction from Batman regarding Dent's Death? If Dent is dead at the end then Batman has killed him. He has broken his rule to protect an innocent but in doing so he undermines the rest of the movie upto that point. Yet there is very little reaction from Batman about having done this.

The way Bale portrays Batman he's more a machine than a person, so grieving is done in private. Besides, the police were closing in so Batman had to spend what little time he had figuring out a way to foil the Joker's scheme. More realistically, the movie was already running long. I suspect that Batman will mourn for his parents, Rachel, and Harvey in the next movie. I don't believe that Batman broke his rule intentionally, but other posters have explained this above so I won't repeat them.

4. How can Batman continue to operate when in the eyes of the public Batman is now a killer? This surely has to be rectified at some point in the future meaning that Dents actions will become common knowledge but who will reveal it? Dent is dead, Ramirez has no reason to speak out which means either Batman or Gordon and his family will have to tell the truth which hardly seems likely.

Batman will obviously be an unloved outlaw in the threequel. It's up to the writers to save Batman's reputation without revealing Gordon as a liar. I can only think that, over time, Batman will prove himself to be a great hero to Gothamites, so maybe people will suspect that there is more to the five murders than has been officially let on but they can't prove anything. Batman will always remain officially outside the law but people, including the police, won't hate him anymore. It's sloppy but it's my only idea.

Don't get me wrong folks I really enjoyed The Dark Knight but the ending just left me feeling confused and repeated viewings have done nothing to clear this up. I also think killing off Harvey Dent was a total waste of a wonderful character. Yet I think there are a few clues that he could actually just be unconscious at the end. "Any chance you gave us of saving this city dies with Harvey's REPUTATION." Strange you would think Gordon would say dies with Harvey. Unless of course he is not really dead at all.

I'm not sure Two-Face was wasted. What exactly is Harvey supposed to do after getting revenge on the people he blamed for his misfortune? Become a gangster? His purpose has been served. BTW, Nolan's wife said that Harvey's fate was deliberately left ambiguous. Whether he's dead or not, I doubt we'll be seeing him in the next movie.

 

[CJ]

It's been a long time since I've seen TDK, and I only saw it a couple of times, but I'll try and answer your questions.

Two-Face killed the bodyguard before he got in the car. I think people claim that you can see Two-Face pull the bodyguard offscreen before Maroni gets in the vehicle. Other than the bodyguard, there was Wuertz (cop #1), Maroni, Maroni's driver, and either Ramirez (possible cop #2) or the black policeman at the hospital (other possible cop #2). The other (white?) cop at the hospital just disappears, IIRC, so we don't know if he's dead. Maybe he was working for the Joker.

Uhm, no.

First off, Nurse-Joker shot the black policeman at the hospital.

Secondly, Dent did not kill Maroni. He flipped the coin and Maroni had the good side. Dent replied "you get to live.. but not your driver." Dent killed the driver. It's possible Maroni died when the car flipped, but its never told to the audience.

Ramirez got good heads. Dent says "looks like you'll live to see another day, officer." and then smacks her with his gun. I doubt she died from that.

The only people I remember Two-Face killing was the driver of Maroni's car and Wertz. Other people got the 'good side' of his coin. He did attempt to kill Batman and Gordon's son, but failed..

 

[RKO]

^Yes, but since Ramirez is knocked out, and hasn't shown up, Gordon probably assumed she's dead/missing.

 

[EvilOnTwoLegs]

I think Harvey was most likely dead being as how there was a monument at the end and Gordon giving a speech about Dent.

 

[mxn36]

Uhm, no.

First off, Nurse-Joker shot the black policeman at the hospital.

Secondly, Dent did not kill Maroni. He flipped the coin and Maroni had the good side. Dent replied "you get to live.. but not your driver." Dent killed the driver. It's possible Maroni died when the car flipped, but its never told to the audience.

Ramirez got good heads. Dent says "looks like you'll live to see another day, officer." and then smacks her with his gun. I doubt she died from that.

The only people I remember Two-Face killing was the driver of Maroni's car and Wertz. Other people got the 'good side' of his coin. He did attempt to kill Batman and Gordon's son, but failed..

You have to see this from the perspective of Gordon. I'm not sure if the hospital cop is one of the cop's he's talking about,but let's just say it is for arguments sake. Gordon doesn't know that the Joker was even at the hospital, no one does except the people working for him. Let's say the cops find and ID the body of the cop assigned to look after Dent, and the word gets out to Gordon that he died from gun shot wounds and not the explosion. After seeing that Dent's gone loony, he puts 2 & 2 together and assumes he killed him. Or he could assume Ramirez is the 2nd cop. Like said before, she could've gone missing, or still knocked out from being pistol-whipped, leading to assumption that she is dead.

Same goes for Maroni and his driver. What, do you think Gordon should think "Gee, it looks like this new Harvey Two-Face decides whether to kill people based on the flip of a coin. I'm not sure if Maroni got heads or tails, so I shouldn't assume Dent killed him." No, he probably got word that Maroni and his driver were found dead in a car crash, and assumed Dent probably had something to do with it.

Then you have to add the fact that this all took place within a day. The same day that the Joker decided to completely **** on Gotham. With everything happening, can you really blame Gordon for a rough estimation at the top of his head on something that he doesn't even have all the info on? Perhaps throwing an extra casualty in there?

I don't understand why people have such a problem with that line, it's a borderline throwaway line, and there are numerous ways that it can be explained.

 

[CJ]

You have to see this from the perspective of Gordon. I'm not sure if the hospital cop is one of the cop's he's talking about,but let's just say it is for arguments sake. Gordon doesn't know that the Joker was even at the hospital, no one does except the people working for him.

I would assume everyone would know Joker is there. He announced on TV he was going to blow it up. Bruce knew he was going to be there, (hence why he asked Gordon if he should go to the hospital. He wanted an excuse to find Joker and probably protect Dent) and he's not even a cop.

 

[bane]

I would assume everyone would know Joker is there. He announced on TV he was going to blow it up. Bruce knew he was going to be there, (hence why he asked Gordon if he should go to the hospital. He wanted an excuse to find Joker and probably protect Dent) and he's not even a cop.

The Joker said he was going to blow up a hospital, but not which hospital (he didn't say i'm gonna blow up Gotham General) and Bruce didn't know the Joker was gonna be at any hospital, and how could he(the Joker is unpredictable)?He asked Gordon if he should go to the hospital to make himself look stupid.

 

[metalhead_dave]

Secondly, Dent did not kill Maroni. He flipped the coin and Maroni had the good side. Dent replied "you get to live.. but not your driver." Dent killed the driver. It's possible Maroni died when the car flipped, but its never told to the audience.

Seatbelts save lives. Maroni wasn't wearing his, and after that kind of car crash, it's widely assumed he bit the dust... and Dent would be responsible for his death.

 

[Mr.Obycyek]

Claiming Two-Face killed the bodyguard before he got in the car is like claiming there was a midget standing behind Wuertz when he got shot and Wuertz crushed him! Also The "5 people dead" line is very important considering Batman is taking the rap for those deaths so i would say it was an important line and certainly not throwaway.

 

[metalhead_dave]

Claiming Two-Face killed the bodyguard before he got in the car is like claiming there was a midget standing behind Wuertz when he got shot and Wuertz crushed him!

Take a look at this...

[YT]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPXp8izEMu0[/YT]

At the 0:01 second point, take a look to the far left of the video. As far as I'm concerned, assuming Two Face killed the bodygaurd is not outrageous as "claiming there was a midget standing behind Wuertz when he got shot and Wuertz crushed him."

 

[Mr.Obycyek]

Dent flips the coin and then if it comes up bad he shoots the person. This is how he operates. Check his encounters with The Joker, Wuertz, Maroni, Maroni's driver, Ramirez, Batman, himself and Gordon's son.

 

[El Payaso]

The sonar scene wasn't the ultimate action sequence but it was fine and it worked. What happened afterwards was perfection. As many parts of the movie the finale of TDK was simply excellent and top quality cinema.

 

[batman11]

Dent flips the coin and then if it comes up bad he shoots the person. This is how he operates. Check his encounters with The Joker, Wuertz, Maroni, Maroni's driver, Ramirez, Batman, himself and Gordon's son.

Who's to say he didn't flip it before he grabbed the guy?

We don't need to be spoon fed everything. Did we actually see Dent shoot Wertz? Nope, the gunshot was offscreen, so do we assume Wertz is still alive? Maybe Dent has poor aim and missed?

 

[Marden]

Two-Face doesn't kill the bodyguard, he just hits him with the gun from behind. Common thing to do when you want to knock out someone, quickly, silently. You can even see how he punches him.

 

[dark_b]

how batmans rule works?
a good example is how he owns the joker. he pushes him down. but then saves him with hes grappling gun. because he didnt want to kill him.

he didnt want to kill dent. he didnt want to save the kind form falling. he just jumped on him so tha the wouldnt shoot at the kid.

end and voila.

 

[Doctor Jones]

Batman certainly did break his rule when he killed Dent--and that's the point. He can't realistically live up to this ideal of keeping everyone alive, even if he wants to. He doesn't abandon the rule, he doesn't believe in it any less, but sometimes it's a standard that cannot be met.

He did not break his one rule. Dent died by the fall, not by Batman. He didn't know there was a ledge. He didn't care what happened, not thinking what would happen next. Batman just took that oppurtune moment to save the son. That's all that mattered. So when Dent flipped the coin, that's when Batman had to strike, not knowing the outcome. After he planned to tackle Dent, he would just go from there, his main concern was saving the son.

Dent dies by falling, not by Batman himself, who didn't even know about the drop in the first place.

 

[baronghede]

It's been a long time since I've seen TDK, and I only saw it a couple of times, but I'll try and answer your questions.

Two-Face killed the bodyguard before he got in the car. I think people claim that you can see Two-Face pull the bodyguard offscreen before Maroni gets in the vehicle. Other than the bodyguard, there was Wuertz (cop #1), Maroni, Maroni's driver, and either Ramirez (possible cop #2) or the black policeman at the hospital (other possible cop #2). The other (white?) cop at the hospital just disappears, IIRC, so we don't know if he's dead. Maybe he was working for the Joker.

Truth. Look left.

 

[DACrowe]

To the original poster, that wasn't the finale.

If you thought it was, you fell into Nolan's trap. This is not the end of the movie. Batman and Joker will fight forever so there will never be a definite final showdown (they even have this moment in the middle of the movie with the "western" showdown iconography...before Joker escapes prison and taking the city's case against the mob, Rachel Dawes and Harvey Dent with him).

The real ending begins with Joker's chilling "chat" with Batman afterwards. He ultimately reveals the dark truth of good and evil and its vague unending middle ground in which we are all forever entrenched. Then the movie becomes about his effects on the city, most notably the noble and heroic triumvirant of good men who tried to take him down. The real climax is Batman, Gordon and Harvey "Two-Face" Dent confronting each other and coming to terms with the ideas that the movie sabout and the Joker exposed like a festering wound.

Harvey's fall and Batman's galvanizing him is the real ending of the movie and the real climax.

 

[batman11]

To the original poster, that wasn't the finale.

If you thought it was, you fell into Nolan's trap. This is not the end of the movie. Batman and Joker will fight forever so there will never be a definite final showdown (they even have this moment in the middle of the movie with the "western" showdown iconography...before Joker escapes prison and taking the city's case against the mob, Rachel Dawes and Harvey Dent with him).

The real ending begins with Joker's chilling "chat" with Batman afterwards. He ultimately reveals the dark truth of good and evil and its vague unending middle ground in which we are all forever entrenched. Then the movie becomes about his effects on the city, most notably the noble and heroic triumvirant of good men who tried to take him down. The real climax is Batman, Gordon and Harvey "Two-Face" Dent confronting each other and coming to terms with the ideas that the movie sabout and the Joker exposed like a festering wound.

Harvey's fall and Batman's galvanizing him is the real ending of the movie and the real climax.

Well said.

 

[Doctor Jones]

To the original poster, that wasn't the finale.

If you thought it was, you fell into Nolan's trap. This is not the end of the movie. Batman and Joker will fight forever so there will never be a definite final showdown (they even have this moment in the middle of the movie with the "western" showdown iconography...before Joker escapes prison and taking the city's case against the mob, Rachel Dawes and Harvey Dent with him).

The real ending begins with Joker's chilling "chat" with Batman afterwards. He ultimately reveals the dark truth of good and evil and its vague unending middle ground in which we are all forever entrenched. Then the movie becomes about his effects on the city, most notably the noble and heroic triumvirant of good men who tried to take him down. The real climax is Batman, Gordon and Harvey "Two-Face" Dent confronting each other and coming to terms with the ideas that the movie sabout and the Joker exposed like a festering wound.

Harvey's fall and Batman's galvanizing him is the real ending of the movie and the real climax.

Exactly.

 

[mxn36]

Also The "5 people dead" line is very important considering Batman is taking the rap for those deaths so i would say it was an important line and certainly not throwaway.

The main problem people have with that line is the mysterious "5th person". So basically, your argument is that had Batman only been taking the rap for 4 people, his sacrifice would've been any less important or benevolent? That's semantical and ridiculous. Even if he had only taken the rap for Wuertz, (who apparently is the only character that even the most unreasonable person can agree was killed by Dent) he'd be hunted as a damn cop killer.