The Dark Knight Discussion of TDK finale

[Mr.Obycyek]

Here is some of my problems with the end of the movie. At the end of The Dark Knight Batman has become a murderer in the eyes of the public and the police. "He is the hero we deserve but not the one we need right now." This implies that one day they will need him but until then he will be a hunted man. However how can he ever be accepted if he is known as a murderer? If in Batman 3 he stops numerous new villains and saves the day without killing anyone that does not change what has been established at the end of TDK. He has killed 5 people (although Dent only kills 3 people!) and that cannot be forgotten. That is just for starters.

Another problem is that The Joker has killed Lau. Lau is the reason all the criminals are locked up and without him they will all go free regardless of what becomes known about Harvey Dent. Hence the reason Gordon says that Lau is the priority when they are about to raid the ship. Therefore if it is one of the reasons why Batman is taking the blame then it is a waste of time.

Batman tells the Joker "This city just showed you it's full of people ready to believe in good." However Batman then shows that he has no real faith in the people of Gotham by deciding to take the blame for Harvey Dent's actions. He believes what The Joker tells him about how it will break their spirit completely if they know what he has become. Batman & Gordon have learned nothing at the end of the movie. They are still trying to control things. The people may deserve more but at the end of the day the truth should be known.

Just what exactly is the fake story they put out about Harvey Dent? For me the most pausible is that he never made it out of the hospital. But this would mean that The Joker is responsible for his death which is false. If they are going to go down that road then why not just blame the other deaths on him as well?

 

[metalhead_dave]

Here is some of my problems with the end of the movie. At the end of The Dark Knight Batman has become a murderer in the eyes of the public and the police. "He is the hero we deserve but not the one we need right now." This implies that one day they will need him but until then he will be a hunted man. However how can he ever be accepted if he is known as a murderer? If in Batman 3 he stops numerous new villains and saves the day without killing anyone that does not change what has been established at the end of TDK. He has killed 5 people (although Dent only kills 3 people!) and that cannot be forgotten. That is just for starters.

Another problem is that The Joker has killed Lau. Lau is the reason all the criminals are locked up and without him they will all go free regardless of what becomes known about Harvey Dent. Hence the reason Gordon says that Lau is the priority when they are about to raid the ship. Therefore if it is one of the reasons why Batman is taking the blame then it is a waste of time.

Batman tells the Joker "This city just showed you it's full of people ready to believe in good." However Batman then shows that he has no real faith in the people of Gotham by deciding to take the blame for Harvey Dent's actions. He believes what The Joker tells him about how it will break their spirit completely if they know what he has become. Batman & Gordon have learned nothing at the end of the movie. They are still trying to control things. The people may deserve more but at the end of the day the truth should be known.

Just what exactly is the fake story they put out about Harvey Dent? For me the most pausible is that he never made it out of the hospital. But this would mean that The Joker is responsible for his death which is false. If they are going to go down that road then why not just blame the other deaths on him as well?

COME ON! Jesus H Christ

You just put your old gripes into this post. Was it REALLY needed. We all know where you stand, you don't need to hammer it home. Don't beat a dead horse, please.

Give me a break...

Anyway, with that stated, I'd like to address what you said about Lau because for a second you made me think "Hmmm, he has a point." But I'll address it by quoting part of the screenplay, the scene between Dent and the Mayor.

MAYOR
549 criminals at once?! How did you
convince Surrillo to hear this farce?

DENT
She shares my enthusiasm for justice.
After all, she is a judge.

MAYOR
Even if you blow enough smoke to get
convictions out of Surrillo, you'll
set a new record at appeals for
quickest kick in the ass.

DENT
It won't matter. The head guys make
bail, sure... but the mid-level guys,
they can't, and they can't afford to
be off the streets long enough for
trial and appeal. They'll cut deals
that include some jail time. Think
of all you could do with 18 months of
clean streets.

The Mayor waves Gordon and Loeb out.

MAYOR
The public likes you, Dent. That's
the only reason this might fly.​

Now I'm no laywer... but I'm betting that a dead witness is no fast ticket out of prison. I still believe they would have to go to court where the case gets thrown out. So the "18 months of clean streets" would still happen. And the DA's office could still build some sort of case on the info and deals they get from criminals. But if Dent was known to be a killer, I think that's the fast track to freedom for all of the criminals he put away.

Can somebody confirm or deny this for me?

 

[Mr.Obycyek]

I do tend to go on and on but I feel the movie raises these questions. As for your point. The criminals would most certainly be out after Lau is confirmed as dead. The whole prosecution would fall apart without Lau. The case would be thrown out of court. "We have no case!" As they say in the movies. They have some of his testimony on record but that is not enough. Hence why Gordon keeps him in the MCU. They still need him. So when The Joker escapes with Lau their whole case against the mob is destroyed.

 

[Anita18]

Now I'm no laywer... but I'm betting that a dead witness is no fast ticket out of prison. I still believe they would have to go to court where the case gets thrown out. So the "18 months of clean streets" would still happen. And the DA's office could still build some sort of case on the info and deals they get from criminals. But if Dent was known to be a killer, I think that's the fast track to freedom for all of the criminals he put away.

Can somebody confirm or deny this for me?

We didn't see this on screen, but it's highly likely that Dent managed to get something out of Lau and onto the record. Even if Lau is dead, the new DAs could probably pursue the evidence and get something.

Lau looks up as Dent walks in, holding a bullet proof vest.

DENT

You're due in court - I need you alive long enough to get you on the record.

LAU

No way. You can't protect me - you can't even protect yourselves.​

Dent THROWS the heavy vest at Lau.

DENT

Refuse to cooperate on the stand - you won't be coming back here - you'll go to county. How long do you calculate you'll last in there?​

The film then cuts to Bruce and Alfred in the Bat-bunker.

But if Lau was their only ticket, and if he hadn't gone in front of the judge yet, the prosecution has nothing and all the big guns would go free. (They already had, and they were already dead anyway. But I don't think Batman nor the GPD knows that by the end of the film...)

Lau probably didn't have anything on the small-time criminals, the ones we saw on the ferry. He most likely dealt with personal funds from Maroni, the Chechen, and Gambol.

 

[JL Unlimited]

He has killed 5 people (although Dent only kills 3 people!) and that cannot be forgotten. That is just for starters.

This again? Here's the five in order of killing or assumed killing: 1.) Wuertz, 2.) One of Maroni's men (look back a few pages for the pictures), 3.) Maroni's driver, 4.) Maroni. These all happened during the day and most likely confirmed by the GCPD.

The last person is Ramirez, which probably happens less than an hour before Gordon head off to meet with Dent. Gordon assumes Dent killed Ramirez because she was the other person suspected in Dent and Rachel's kidnapping, especially when he hears about the other killings above which all happen earlier during the day. He's the commish now...you don't think he would have caught wind of the murders?

Another problem is that The Joker has killed Lau. Lau is the reason all the criminals are locked up and without him they will all go free regardless of what becomes known about Harvey Dent. Hence the reason Gordon says that Lau is the priority when they are about to raid the ship. Therefore if it is one of the reasons why Batman is taking the blame then it is a waste of time.

Wrong. Like Anita pointed out, Dent got Lau on record, presumably in the scene after the Joker crashes the Penthouse party when he tosses Lau the bulletproof vest.

Lau is Gordon's top priority because of the deal they made. Remember...Lau would testify only if he was promised immunity and protection. Gordon was performing his due diligence.

How many times have you seen the movie? I'm assuming once...

 

[BestGirl]

We didn't see this on screen, but it's highly likely that Dent managed to get something out of Lau and onto the record. Even if Lau is dead, the new DAs could probably pursue the evidence and get something.

And the fact that Dent is a dead hero and this was his big project may help out his case. Judges might be more likely to allow a weak case to go to court, and juries may be more likely to convict on flimsy evidence.

 

[8blades]

Batman making a speech at the end? You can try and insult me for saying this, but that was just very lame and out of character.

 

[Doctor Jones]

Batman making a speech at the end? You can try and insult me for saying this, but that was just very lame and out of character.

Huh? How was it out of character?

 

[metalhead_dave]

Huh? How was it out of character?

Ignore him, he's just another dumbass Harrygucha style killjoy. We've disproved his ignorant points over and over and he just keeps his BS up. He's not worth debating.

 

[The Joker]

Batman making a speech at the end? You can try and insult me for saying this, but that was just very lame and out of character.

Out of character?

Did you ever read The Killing Joke? Batman makes a big speech to Joker at the end about how he wants to try and help rehabilitate him, otherwise they're going to end up killing eachother eventually.

 

[Doctor Jones]

I think we should just take dave's advice and ignore him.

 

[ultimatefan]

Hah, the arguments people make... Just got the DVD and I remember one of the arguments one of our champion nitpickers - that I won´t glorify by naming - made a big case that Gordon had a gun and could have killed Dent and saved his kid without him almost falling from the edge. I didn´t have a clear memory of how that specific aspect was dealt with at the time, so I didn´t comment on it, but now I saw it on DVD and well, Dent pretty clearly kicked away Gordon´s gun. If people want to make an argument of something, can they at least pay some frikking attention to what they want to b*** about?

 

[hegele]

Have you guys seen http://www.thedarkknightpuzzle.com ?

It's promoting the blu-ray and it says "Two-Face hacked the sonar system and is helping criminals target Batman's allies around the city."

If two-face is dead, when did he have time to do this? Looks like the WB marketing guys took it upon themselves to state Harv's fate in Nolan's bat-world.

btw- if this has been mentioned, apologies...

 

[Uber Venom]

This movie, in my opinion, has one of those ending that stick with you for awhile. No matter how many times I watch it, I'm sad for a few hours after seeing the end.

 

[Anita18]

This movie, in my opinion, has one of those ending that stick with you for awhile. No matter how many times I watch it, I'm sad for a few hours after seeing the end.

Nolan's films usually leave me feeling like I've been hit in the stomach. Batman Begins and Insomnia were much less so, but OOF were Following, Memento, and The Prestige painful. TDK was somewhat more elevating than the rest, but it's got more of a Nolan ending that BB.

 

[Uber Venom]

That's true. TDK hits me the hardest for some reason.

 

[Two-Face]

Have you guys seen http://www.thedarkknightpuzzle.com ?

It's promoting the blu-ray and it says "Two-Face hacked the sonar system and is helping criminals target Batman's allies around the city."

If two-face is dead, when did he have time to do this? Looks like the WB marketing guys took it upon themselves to state Harv's fate in Nolan's bat-world.

btw- if this has been mentioned, apologies...

I won 27 seconds.

 

[BestGirl]

Have you guys seen http://www.thedarkknightpuzzle.com ?

It's promoting the blu-ray and it says "Two-Face hacked the sonar system and is helping criminals target Batman's allies around the city."

If two-face is dead, when did he have time to do this? Looks like the WB marketing guys took it upon themselves to state Harv's fate in Nolan's bat-world.

btw- if this has been mentioned, apologies...

Maybe he made a detour on the way to kill Wuertz. In all seriousness, though, the marketing isn't always in sync with the movie. I know the marketing campaign said that Harvey Dent's mom was still alive, while in the TDK novel she was killed when he was young. Oh well. It's fun thinking that Two-Face is alive somewhere.

 

[Drizzle]

This movie, in my opinion, has one of those ending that stick with you for awhile. No matter how many times I watch it, I'm sad for a few hours after seeing the end.

When I first saw it, I was upset at the end. At first, I thought it was because Two-Face was killed, but then I realized it was because TDK was over and it was the only time we'd be able to see Heath's Joker.

 

[byte19]

i know everyone was talking bout the ending and it affected them, but my reaction was more.... vocal. i literally yelled out WOW!! while i was crying. then just sat there sobbing while the credits rolled some ppl i knew from the hunts were coming up to me patting me on the back saying what you were waiting for for hours has just made you the happiest person alive, why are you crying? all i could muster was; Gary told me you'll love it.

the scene where Gordon and co. arrests the mob at the restaurant... I was there when they were shooting it!! and i got shake his hand!! Mr. Nolan walked by me twice, but i was too afraid to say anything. this is why you'll see may this was made for me, nobody else. this is the greatest movie alive.

end praise.

 

[BestGirl]

When I first saw it, I was upset at the end. At first, I thought it was because Two-Face was killed, but then I realized it was because TDK was over and it was the only time we'd be able to see Heath's Joker.

I felt upset for the same reason after Batman left the Joker hanging. I knew that was all we were ever going to get.

 

[Cancer4TheCure]

I felt upset for the same reason after Batman left the Joker hanging. I knew that was all we were ever going to get.

Yeah, my stomach churned with that. I was heartbroken yet satisfied.

 

[ultimatefan]

Another thing I noticed was Dent was even closer to the edge of the building than I initially thought. Batman totally made the right call, making his priority to grab the kid as fast as he took Dent down, NOT trying first to disarm him with a batarang or something, there was a big risk that Dent would drop the kid or the kid would fall with any false move Dent made.

 

[Doc Samson]

Nolan's films usually leave me feeling like I've been hit in the stomach. Batman Begins and Insomnia were much less so, but OOF were Following, Memento, and The Prestige painful. TDK was somewhat more elevating than the rest, but it's got more of a Nolan ending that BB.

In a weird way, the ending to this made me more pumped than BB did. IMO, it exemplified everything Batman is about. The ultimate hero, the man with all the money and success, choosing to work down in the dirt battling the craziest villains ever. At then taking the wrap, all for this terrible city that killed his soul in the first place, it was all just very.....poetic

 

[Anita18]

Another thing I noticed was Dent was even closer to the edge of the building than I initially thought. Batman totally made the right call, making his priority to grab the kid as fast as he took Dent down, NOT trying first to disarm him with a batarang or something, there was a big risk that Dent would drop the kid or the kid would fall with any false move Dent made.

Wouldn't be surprised if Dent planned to simply jump over the edge once he flipped the coin for the boy. He was on a rather self-destructive streak...

In a weird way, the ending to this made me more pumped than BB did. IMO, it exemplified everything Batman is about. The ultimate hero, the man with all the money and success, choosing to work down in the dirt battling the craziest villains ever. At then taking the wrap, all for this terrible city that killed his soul in the first place, it was all just very.....poetic

That's also why I think TDK has more of a Nolan ending, since his films tend to conclude with some kind of poetic voiceover. BB's wasn't all that poetic, IMO.