The Dark Knight Discussion of TDK finale

[NickyTea]

.


That's also why I think TDK has more of a Nolan ending, since his films tend to conclude with some kind of poetic voiceover. BB's wasn't all that poetic, IMO.

"I never thanked you."
"and you'll never have to."
JUMP.

It's poetry in motion, baby.

 

[Doctor Jones]

"I never said thank you."
"and you'll never have to."
JUMP.

It's poetry in motion, baby.

Fixed.

 

[Mr.Obycyek]

Believe it or not I really enjoyed The Dark Knight but that does not mean I cannot question some of the things that happen in it. I have not been rude or insulting to anyone. I am a bit disappointed with the hostility that has been directed at myself but I guess that's life eh? I am certainly not a Batman hating killjoy. I have watched the movie quite a few times now as there is a lot of things to take in on first viewings. My problem with the finale still remains however regarding Harvey Dent's prosecution.

Here is some dialogue from the movie that explains thing quite clearly in terms of why the Harvey Dent prosecution is destroyed at the end of the movie in my opinion.

DENT:
“It Won’t Matter. The head guys make bail, sure but, the middle-level guys, they can’t, and they can’t afford to be off the streets long enough for TRIAL and appeal. They’ll cut deals that include some jail time. Think of all you can do with EIGHTEEN MONTHS of clean streets.”

Eighteen months is probably when the actual trial will start. Lau needs to testify at this trial. Unless anyone thinks it is possible to have a trial involving 549 suspects facing over a 1000 different charges in the space of a few days.

MAYOR:
“They get anything on you, those crooks will be back out on the streets, followed swiftly by you and me.”

Basically he is saying let’s hope they do not dig up any dirt on you before the trial starts.

LAU:
“Immunity, protection and A CHARTERED PLANE BACK TO HONG KONG.”

Immunity from prosecution, protection from the mob and a return home to Hong Kong. This is called cutting a deal. As Lau is basically holding all the cards they have to play ball.

RACHEL:
“Once, you’ve TESTIFIED in OPEN COURT.”

He can go home once he has testified in open court during a TRIAL. This is the deal they make.

DENT:
“You’re due in court. I need you alive long enough to get you on RECORD.”

Getting someone on record and testifying in open court during a TRIAL are two totally separate things. Getting Lau on record is part of the process in establishing they have a strong enough case to keep the criminals in custody until the time of the trial. This record be it written or oral would not be enough to convict in a court of law if anything were to happen to the witness before they could testify in open court. If that happened then the case would be thrown out and anyone involved in the allegations would be released. So all the criminals would go free. Might take a few days to sort out with so many people involved but it would certainly not be eighteen months. As for the ones who cut deals there is a good chance this would be thrown out of court as well based on the collapse of the main prosecution. These would most likely be small time deals anyway. This is why Lau is still being held in Gordon’s MCU when the Joker gets him. Gordon & Dent need Lau alive to testify in court.

Finally if even more proof is needed you only need to watch the court scene at the beginning of the movie.

Harvey Dent has the statement from the witness but when he is on the stand and asked to identify Salvatore Maroni and implicate him he changes his story and the case is thrown out. Maroni is then back on the street. Proving that a written statement or record is not enough in a court of law to get a conviction.

"WHY WOULD YOU LISTEN TO ME NOW?"

 

[Cancer4TheCure]

Believe it or not I really enjoyed The Dark Knight but that does not mean I cannot question some of the things that happen in it. I have not been rude or insulting to anyone. I am a bit disappointed with the hostility that has been directed at myself but I guess that's life eh? I am certainly not a Batman hating killjoy. I have watched the movie quite a few times now as there is a lot of things to take in on first viewings. My problem with the finale still remains however regarding Harvey Dent's prosecution.

Here is some dialogue from the movie that explains thing quite clearly in terms of why the Harvey Dent prosecution is destroyed at the end of the movie in my opinion.

DENT:
“It Won’t Matter. The head guys make bail, sure but, the middle-level guys, they can’t, and they can’t afford to be off the streets long enough for TRIAL and appeal. They’ll cut deals that include some jail time. Think of all you can do with EIGHTEEN MONTHS of clean streets.”

Eighteen months is probably when the actual trial will start. Lau needs to testify at this trial. Unless anyone thinks it is possible to have a trial involving 549 suspects facing over a 1000 different charges in the space of a few days.

MAYOR:
“They get anything on you, those crooks will be back out on the streets, followed swiftly by you and me.”

Basically he is saying let’s hope they do not dig up any dirt on you before the trial starts.

LAU:
“Immunity, protection and A CHARTERED PLANE BACK TO HONG KONG.”

Immunity from prosecution, protection from the mob and a return home to Hong Kong. This is called cutting a deal. As Lau is basically holding all the cards they have to play ball.

RACHEL:
“Once, you’ve TESTIFIED in OPEN COURT.”

He can go home once he has testified in open court during a TRIAL. This is the deal they make.

DENT:
“You’re due in court. I need you alive long enough to get you on RECORD.”

Getting someone on record and testifying in open court during a TRIAL are two totally separate things. Getting Lau on record is part of the process in establishing they have a strong enough case to keep the criminals in custody until the time of the trial. This record be it written or oral would not be enough to convict in a court of law if anything were to happen to the witness before they could testify in open court. If that happened then the case would be thrown out and anyone involved in the allegations would be released. So all the criminals would go free. Might take a few days to sort out with so many people involved but it would certainly not be eighteen months. As for the ones who cut deals there is a good chance this would be thrown out of court as well based on the collapse of the main prosecution. These would most likely be small time deals anyway. This is why Lau is still being held in Gordon’s MCU when the Joker gets him. Gordon & Dent need Lau alive to testify in court.

Finally if even more proof is needed you only need to watch the court scene at the beginning of the movie.

Harvey Dent has the statement from the witness but when he is on the stand and asked to identify Salvatore Maroni and implicate him he changes his story and the case is thrown out. Maroni is then back on the street. Proving that a written statement or record is not enough in a court of law to get a conviction.

"WHY WOULD YOU LISTEN TO ME NOW?"

I'll be very open with you, and I'm not being disrespectful. Your post is very well written and I see almost every point you make.

I, for one, love the finale. A lot of people do. However, on the flipside many do not. Many people have simliar beefs to yours. I love this film, but I'm not unrealisitc - it's not flawless. I'm not trying to start some huge disagreement, and I understand some flaws present in the film.

On the other hand, to completely honest, none of your arguments matter to me personally. I always thought the main focus of a lot of the film was for it to move at a breakneck pace. Because of this, we don't see some things you normally would (Joker leaving the penthouse etc.). So I guess the reason none of that ever bothered me was because that many of the flaws were never present until people offer them. I believe some people look to far into these flaws - keep in mind that it is fiction. Again, not trying to be disrespectful, just stimulating conversation.

 

[Mr.Obycyek]

Spoken like a true gentleman Cancer4TheCure. You're probably right I am looking into things a bit too deeply but I just feel that this is such an important part in the movie as it is one of the reasons Batman takes the fall for Harvey.

 

[Cancer4TheCure]

Spoken like a true gentleman Cancer4TheCure. You're probably right I am looking into things a bit too deeply but I just feel that this is such an important part in the movie as it is one of the reasons Batman takes the fall for Harvey.

Oh yeah, I understand. I guess I just never thought about it like that.

 

[Mr.Obycyek]

Well at least you can see where I am coming from even if you don't agree with me. I am not trying to just pick apart things. There really are a lot of things I love about the movie. Heath Ledger's Joker is for me the best villain in a movie ever. He basically brings Gotham City to it's knees at the end and how any other villain could ever top it I just don't know. He burns up the screen everytime he is on it. Some scenes are just pure magic. The mob meeting interruption, the interrogation sequence, Joker walking away from the exploding hospital etc are just superb and they are burned into my brain.

 

[Cancer4TheCure]

Well at least you can see where I am coming from even if you don't agree with me. I am not trying to just pick apart things. There really are a lot of things I love about the movie. Heath Ledger's Joker is for me the best villain in a movie ever. He basically brings Gotham City to it's knees at the end and how any other villain could ever top it I just don't know. He burns up the screen everytime he is on it. Some scenes are just pure magic. The mob meeting interruption, the interrogation sequence, Joker walking away from the exploding hospital etc are just superb and they are burned into my brain.

Now that's something everyone can agree with.

 

[Anita18]

Spoken like a true gentleman Cancer4TheCure. You're probably right I am looking into things a bit too deeply but I just feel that this is such an important part in the movie as it is one of the reasons Batman takes the fall for Harvey.

Your logic regarding the justice system is completely solid, at least from my recollection from watching Law and Order. I definitely see how Dent's prosecution of all those criminals could fall apart once Lau dies.

But I bet they didn't want to end the film on such a downer. If Dent is still seen as Gotham's hero, there's a sliver of hope regarding his prosecution. If not, then it's over before it began. And at least Gotham will still have its hero with a face.

Dunno how all of the small-time criminals are going to fare though, considering all of the mob bosses, the ones with the money, are dead. And all the money's probably gone, too.

 

[Mr.Obycyek]

I got most of my knowledge on the law from the Phoenix Wright Ace Attorney games. Just joking! You actually were one of the few that did actually try and address my points earlier Anita18 without being rude. Cancer4TheCure & yourself have gone some way in restoring me faith in good debating.

 

[Cancer4TheCure]

Hey, not every message board is full of single-minded morons. Wait, yeah they are..

 

[Mr.Obycyek]

There are always good guys (and gals!) in amongst them though! He hopes!

 

[JL Unlimited]

Believe it or not I really enjoyed The Dark Knight but that does not mean I cannot question some of the things that happen in it. I have not been rude or insulting to anyone. I am a bit disappointed with the hostility that has been directed at myself but I guess that's life eh? I am certainly not a Batman hating killjoy. I have watched the movie quite a few times now as there is a lot of things to take in on first viewings. My problem with the finale still remains however regarding Harvey Dent's prosecution.

Here is some dialogue from the movie that explains thing quite clearly in terms of why the Harvey Dent prosecution is destroyed at the end of the movie in my opinion.

DENT:
“It Won’t Matter. The head guys make bail, sure but, the middle-level guys, they can’t, and they can’t afford to be off the streets long enough for TRIAL and appeal. They’ll cut deals that include some jail time. Think of all you can do with EIGHTEEN MONTHS of clean streets.”

Eighteen months is probably when the actual trial will start. Lau needs to testify at this trial. Unless anyone thinks it is possible to have a trial involving 549 suspects facing over a 1000 different charges in the space of a few days.

MAYOR:
“They get anything on you, those crooks will be back out on the streets, followed swiftly by you and me.”

Basically he is saying let’s hope they do not dig up any dirt on you before the trial starts.

LAU:
“Immunity, protection and A CHARTERED PLANE BACK TO HONG KONG.”

Immunity from prosecution, protection from the mob and a return home to Hong Kong. This is called cutting a deal. As Lau is basically holding all the cards they have to play ball.

RACHEL:
“Once, you’ve TESTIFIED in OPEN COURT.”

He can go home once he has testified in open court during a TRIAL. This is the deal they make.

DENT:
“You’re due in court. I need you alive long enough to get you on RECORD.”

Getting someone on record and testifying in open court during a TRIAL are two totally separate things. Getting Lau on record is part of the process in establishing they have a strong enough case to keep the criminals in custody until the time of the trial. This record be it written or oral would not be enough to convict in a court of law if anything were to happen to the witness before they could testify in open court. If that happened then the case would be thrown out and anyone involved in the allegations would be released. So all the criminals would go free. Might take a few days to sort out with so many people involved but it would certainly not be eighteen months. As for the ones who cut deals there is a good chance this would be thrown out of court as well based on the collapse of the main prosecution. These would most likely be small time deals anyway. This is why Lau is still being held in Gordon’s MCU when the Joker gets him. Gordon & Dent need Lau alive to testify in court.

Finally if even more proof is needed you only need to watch the court scene at the beginning of the movie.

Harvey Dent has the statement from the witness but when he is on the stand and asked to identify Salvatore Maroni and implicate him he changes his story and the case is thrown out. Maroni is then back on the street. Proving that a written statement or record is not enough in a court of law to get a conviction.

"WHY WOULD YOU LISTEN TO ME NOW?"

I see your logic but Lau being killed does not throw the case out. Here's a link to a real case where a key witness is murdered and the case is still moving forward:

legalpad.typepad.com

On top of that, I'm sure Lau provided Dent with recorded evidence like ledgers that would implicate at last one of the mobsters.

 

[DACrowe]

Spoken like a true gentleman Cancer4TheCure. You're probably right I am looking into things a bit too deeply but I just feel that this is such an important part in the movie as it is one of the reasons Batman takes the fall for Harvey.

I'm gonna' just say you may have missed the point as to why Batman took the fall for Harvey. Dent gave Gotham City something it hadn't had since Thomas Wayne was alive...hope for a better tomorrow. Harvey Dent "was the symbol [Batman] could never be." He wanted to preserve that symbol so Dent dies a martyr, a victim at the hands of the Joker in his crusade to make Gotham safer. Perhaps, like his parents' death, this will galvanize the city to take up his cause.

He didn't do it, because he wanted to make sure the massive trial Dent's office was pursuing would be completed. As you pointed out, with Lau dead there is no evidence and basically the entire thing falls through. No convictions or guilty pleas.

I'm pretty sure everyone figured Lau was dead when the Joker got him and with the DA Office in Gotham City essientially decimated (especially if you count the disappearance of Finch just 12-18 months before TDK takes place), traditional legal justice is not what Batman is sacrificing himself for. He is doing it to preserve the quality of hope in Gotham City.

Also, the arrests they were talking about when they saw Dent's body was all the major arrests he made earlier in the year. It is apparent he has made inroads on middle management mafia as Maroni was on trial at the beginning of the movie and that means some heads had to have rolled somewhere. Lau also mentions "You're enthusiastic new DA put all my friends out of business," and Dent coming from the IA office of GCPD apparently took down a lot of corrupt cops as soon as he got into office, hence the tension between Jim Gordon and Harvey Dent throughout the movie and the lack of trust between the two.

And then he must have done some other work as there were a crap load of convicts who didn't look like mobsters on that ferry at the end and they were "Harvey Dent's degenerates" that he prosecuted. In all honesty considering he was only in office for a year, he did an unbelievable amount of successful prosecuting.

But yeah, all those arrests would fall into question and the ones important to organized crime (if there is any organization left after TDK) would get out leading to more escapes because all the work of a homicidal/insane DA would come into question.

But again it is more about the bigger picture that Batman did what he did.

 

[DACrowe]

Your logic regarding the justice system is completely solid, at least from my recollection from watching Law and Order. I definitely see how Dent's prosecution of all those criminals could fall apart once Lau dies.

But I bet they didn't want to end the film on such a downer. If Dent is still seen as Gotham's hero, there's a sliver of hope regarding his prosecution. If not, then it's over before it began. And at least Gotham will still have its hero with a face.

Dunno how all of the small-time criminals are going to fare though, considering all of the mob bosses, the ones with the money, are dead. And all the money's probably gone, too.

Well I'm hoping new power replaces the vacuum left by Maroni and his gang in TDK as the mafia is a major staple of the Nolan movies, as they should be in a movie about crime in a major city. But unlike traditional mobsters like the three in TDK carving positions in the hole left by Falcone, I hope that they actually replace them with Joker's "new class of criminal."

That's right small parts for Black Face, Scarface and Penguin. If the supporting mobsters were freaks it would show how Gotham is changing in the wake of Gatman's arrival.

 

[HitMe]

Does anyone else find it interesting that the only scenes in the film with the Joker in where he doesn't kill anyone are the ones that he shares with Batman (i.e. the party scene, interrogation scene and the finale with the boats and the tower block). Reckon it was intentional?

 

[HitMe]

Well I'm hoping new power replaces the vacuum left by Maroni and his gang in TDK as the mafia is a major staple of the Nolan movies, as they should be in a movie about crime in a major city. But unlike traditional mobsters like the three in TDK carving positions in the hole left by Falcone, I hope that they actually replace them with Joker's "new class of criminal."

That's right small parts for Black Face, Scarface and Penguin. If the supporting mobsters were freaks it would show how Gotham is changing in the wake of Gatman's arrival.

mask?

 

[DACrowe]

eh...it was late. That sounds...bad. Whoops.

 

[HitMe]

hehehe

 

[BestGirl]

Does anyone else find it interesting that the only scenes in the film with the Joker in where he doesn't kill anyone are the ones that he shares with Batman (i.e. the party scene, interrogation scene and the finale with the boats and the tower block). Reckon it was intentional?

Joker didn't kill anyone in those scenes because Batman was there to stop him. Heroes almost always prevent the villain from killing in movies so I don't think there was any deeper meaning to it.

 

[ultimatefan]

I'm gonna' just say you may have missed the point as to why Batman took the fall for Harvey. Dent gave Gotham City something it hadn't had since Thomas Wayne was alive...hope for a better tomorrow. Harvey Dent "was the symbol [Batman] could never be." He wanted to preserve that symbol so Dent dies a martyr, a victim at the hands of the Joker in his crusade to make Gotham safer. Perhaps, like his parents' death, this will galvanize the city to take up his cause.

He didn't do it, because he wanted to make sure the massive trial Dent's office was pursuing would be completed. As you pointed out, with Lau dead there is no evidence and basically the entire thing falls through. No convictions or guilty pleas.

I'm pretty sure everyone figured Lau was dead when the Joker got him and with the DA Office in Gotham City essientially decimated (especially if you count the disappearance of Finch just 12-18 months before TDK takes place), traditional legal justice is not what Batman is sacrificing himself for. He is doing it to preserve the quality of hope in Gotham City.

Also, the arrests they were talking about when they saw Dent's body was all the major arrests he made earlier in the year. It is apparent he has made inroads on middle management mafia as Maroni was on trial at the beginning of the movie and that means some heads had to have rolled somewhere. Lau also mentions "You're enthusiastic new DA put all my friends out of business," and Dent coming from the IA office of GCPD apparently took down a lot of corrupt cops as soon as he got into office, hence the tension between Jim Gordon and Harvey Dent throughout the movie and the lack of trust between the two.

And then he must have done some other work as there were a crap load of convicts who didn't look like mobsters on that ferry at the end and they were "Harvey Dent's degenerates" that he prosecuted. In all honesty considering he was only in office for a year, he did an unbelievable amount of successful prosecuting.

But yeah, all those arrests would fall into question and the ones important to organized crime (if there is any organization left after TDK) would get out leading to more escapes because all the work of a homicidal/insane DA would come into question.

But again it is more about the bigger picture that Batman did what he did.

Not to mention that, as JL mentioned, it´s not unheard of a case going on even without a key witness.

 

[Doc Samson]

I'm gonna' just say you may have missed the point as to why Batman took the fall for Harvey. Dent gave Gotham City something it hadn't had since Thomas Wayne was alive...hope for a better tomorrow. Harvey Dent "was the symbol [Batman] could never be." He wanted to preserve that symbol so Dent dies a martyr, a victim at the hands of the Joker in his crusade to make Gotham safer. Perhaps, like his parents' death, this will galvanize the city to take up his cause.

He didn't do it, because he wanted to make sure the massive trial Dent's office was pursuing would be completed. As you pointed out, with Lau dead there is no evidence and basically the entire thing falls through. No convictions or guilty pleas.

I'm pretty sure everyone figured Lau was dead when the Joker got him and with the DA Office in Gotham City essientially decimated (especially if you count the disappearance of Finch just 12-18 months before TDK takes place), traditional legal justice is not what Batman is sacrificing himself for. He is doing it to preserve the quality of hope in Gotham City.

Also, the arrests they were talking about when they saw Dent's body was all the major arrests he made earlier in the year. It is apparent he has made inroads on middle management mafia as Maroni was on trial at the beginning of the movie and that means some heads had to have rolled somewhere. Lau also mentions "You're enthusiastic new DA put all my friends out of business," and Dent coming from the IA office of GCPD apparently took down a lot of corrupt cops as soon as he got into office, hence the tension between Jim Gordon and Harvey Dent throughout the movie and the lack of trust between the two.

And then he must have done some other work as there were a crap load of convicts who didn't look like mobsters on that ferry at the end and they were "Harvey Dent's degenerates" that he prosecuted. In all honesty considering he was only in office for a year, he did an unbelievable amount of successful prosecuting.

But yeah, all those arrests would fall into question and the ones important to organized crime (if there is any organization left after TDK) would get out leading to more escapes because all the work of a homicidal/insane DA would come into question.

But again it is more about the bigger picture that Batman did what he did.

Exactly, the movie is about faith more than anything, even lying sometimes to keep it, and that was the point of Batman preserving Dent's image, not just for prosecution, but for the faith Gotham had in him as a good man. It's also why he gives that speech as they show a montage of people "having their faith rewarded" (Alfred burning Rachel's note to save Bruce from the truth, Fox realizing that typing his name for resignation destroys the machine, Gordon giving the eulogy about Dent etc..)

 

[da3dl3us]

Watching the movie again on Bluray (which, btw, looks drop dead gorgeous), I thought of a solution to Batman "Breaking his one rule" issue:

During the scene when Harvey flips the coin to judge Gordon, Bats could have just knocked Harvey out of the way, thus freeing his son. The next scene would have Batman hanging while holding onto Harvey. Harvey, still holding the coin in his hand, opens it and sees the scarred side (yes, I know he judged himself already, so let's remove that part and replace it with this). Realizing his fate, he let's go of Batman's hand. Batman screams "Harvey!" as Harvey falls to his demise.

I think it would have the same visual impact, but also gets Batman off the hook of any implication that he killed Two Face.

Thoughts?

 

[Boom]

It didn't make sense for me that Harvey would point a gun to his head before deciding Gordon's son's fate, anyway.

 

[HitMe]

Joker didn't kill anyone in those scenes because Batman was there to stop him. Heroes almost always prevent the villain from killing in movies so I don't think there was any deeper meaning to it.

Yeah I guess so, I just thought it was interesting to show the only one who could stop his havoc was the batman, noone else.