Discussion: Racism - Part 1

[DeadPresident]

Why are Asian Americans the highest earners in the USA per household? Asian privilege? White supremacy?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

26 percent of blacks live in poverty versus 10 percent of whites.

Only a 16 percent difference but I wouldn't rule out racism contributing to the difference somewhat.

 

[Donner]

In the 50s, it was actually possible for people who were relatively poor to move up the social classes - get a job, buy a house, send their kids to school, etc. And social movements from MLK and feminists started gaining speed and contributing to real social change.

Then the elite decided that the masses were getting to be too powerful and collaborating, so ever since the 70s, policies have been enacted to keep poor people poor, raise tuition costs for students, increase the cost of living, etc.

Aristotle once spoke of how to solve the problem of if poor people were given democratic rights, they would band together and take money and property from the rich. Welfare states decided to re-distribute wealth. The US decided to limit the democratic power of the people. That's why you have an atrocious 2 party system that requires the candidates to be super wealthy (ie. bought and paid for by large corporations) so they can enact policies to benefit the rich.

That's why I had an issue with the white supremacy thing. Everyone is ****ed unless they're part of the super wealthy elite, and that elite is a mixture of races.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Why are Asian Americans the highest earners in the USA per household? Asian privilege? White supremacy?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income

Well the Asian brain drain doesn't hurt.

The most educated and privilaged Asians recieved preferential immigration status since the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

In the 50s, it was actually possible for people who were relatively poor to move up the social classes - get a job, buy a house, send their kids to school, etc. And social movements from MLK and feminists started gaining speed and contributing to real social change.

Then the elite decided that the masses were getting to be too powerful and collaborating, so ever since the 70s, policies have been enacted to keep poor people poor, raise tuition costs for students, increase the cost of living, etc.

Aristotle once spoke of how to solve the problem of if poor people were given democratic rights, they would band together and take money and property from the rich. Welfare states decided to re-distribute wealth. The US decided to limit the democratic power of the people. That's why you have an atrocious 2 party system that requires the candidates to be super wealthy (ie. bought and paid for by large corporations) so they can enact policies to benefit the rich.

That's why I had an issue with the white supremacy thing. Everyone is ****ed unless they're part of the super wealthy elite, and that elite is a mixture of races.

I agree to an extent. How many poor whites support tax cuts for the rich and against social programs for the poor because they're conditioned to believe that only lazy minorities benefit from social programs while they're next in line to be a millionaire "job creator".

 

[Donner]

That is true as well. I think a lot of Trump supporters are like that. The irony is lost on them.

They're quick to call anyone who sits down during the national anthem or who advocates for universal health care "Anti-American." They could be broke as hell, but the idea of taxing the rich more has been beaten into their heads as being communist and socialist and goes against "American" values.

P.S. Sorry for being catty in my earlier posts.

 

[Angryfantasyfan]

Well the Asian brain drain doesn't hurt.

The most educated and privilaged Asians recieved preferential immigration status since the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965.

Bingo.

-Nearly three-quarters (74%) of Asian-American adults were born abroad.

-On average, most Asian immigrants obtain lawful permanent residence in the United States (also known as receiving a green card) through family ties or employment.

-Recent Asian immigrants are also about three times as likely as recent immigrants from other parts of the world to receive their green cards—or permanent resident status—on the basis of employer rather than family sponsorship

-Compared to the overall foreign- and native-born populations, Asian immigrants generally are significantly more educated, more likely to be employed in management occupations, and have higher household incomes.

-Compared with the educational attainment of the population in their country of origin, recent Asian immigrants also stand out as a select group. For example, about 27% of adults ages 25 to 64 in South Korea and 25% in Japan have a bachelor’s degree or more.2 In contrast, nearly 70% of comparably aged recent immigrants from these two countries have at least a bachelor’s degree.

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2012/06/19/the-rise-of-asian-americans/

http://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/asian-immigrants-united-states

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

P.S. Sorry for being catty in my earlier posts.

I apologize if I was rude also.

 

[Angryfantasyfan]

In the 50s, it was actually possible for people who were relatively poor to move up the social classes - get a job, buy a house, send their kids to school, etc. And social movements from MLK and feminists started gaining speed and contributing to real social change.

Unfortunately, the economic gap between white and black Americans had already widened during the 30's and 40's thanks to racial discriminatory practices by labor unions and Southern Congressional leaders.

http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/why-did-fdrs-new-deal-harm-blacks

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/28/b...ive-action-was-white-uncivil-rights.html?_r=0

 

[terry78]

Asians pretty much are able to get a leg up per previous generations by default. My girl's parents are Korean and own a couple stores and they pretty much came here with nothing, but they both had degrees already and some business savvy.

 

[DeadPresident]

Well the Asian brain drain doesn't hurt.

The most educated and privilaged Asians recieved preferential immigration status since the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965.

Sure, but the narrative built by the liberals you tend to associate yourself with is predicated on the concept of white privilege. Whenever someone says "Whites are successful bec-" - The first response is "WHITE PRIVILEGE!" being shouted out by people foaming at the mouth.

So if white privilege is the end-all and be-all of prosperity in America why do Asian Americans out-earn every other racial demographic? Preferential immigration treatment only goes so far. At some point individual action needs to come into the equation, right? You can only lead a horse to water and all that.

Asians pretty much are able to get a leg up per previous generations by default. My girl's parents are Korean and own a couple stores and they pretty much came here with nothing, but they both had degrees already and some business savvy.

Although valid that's unfortunately a bit of a cop-out, the initial generations of Asian Americans didn't get that much of a leg up, so why were they able to extricate themselves out of less than prosperous conditions?

As I mentioned above, white privilege is talked about as some monolithic, unshakable and ever-present sword over every minority's head. Why is it that Asian-Americans managed to reach such levels of success?

And to make it even more interesting Indian Americans are the highest earners among the Asian-American demographic. Indian, Taiwanese and Filipino are the ethnic groups that are in the top 3 positions - surely this debunks a fair portion of this myth that white privilege has every American under its thumb, no?

 

[Donner]

A lot of it has to do with timing and culture. Jewish immigrants in the early 1900s did very well for themselves because they knew how to make garments from the old country. They worked themselves to the bone and made good money and they sent their children to private schools. If you look at the family trees of Jewish lawyers and doctors, the vast majority of their parents/grandparents were garment workers in the US. Jewish lawyers were heavily discriminated against after WWII, but their skills ended up being useful when there was a shift in what kinds of law were profitable (in other words, mergers and acquisitions). But regardless of the discrimination they faced, they still went to school.

If you were an Asian immigrant trying to make it to the US pre WWII, you would have had a heck of a time. After WWII and with the US wanting to strengthen ties with their ally, China, things started looking up for Asian immigrants. They also have a different mentality in Asia as well (when it comes to work and school). I don't think I've ever heard of poverty stricken neighbourhoods that were primarily East Indian or Japanese. Could be luck/good timing or culture or a mixture of both.

If it's true that black culture in the US sees going to school and getting good grades and going on to college as the "white" thing to do, then that may account for some of the issues that blacks are currently having.

 

[DeadPresident]

Sure, I'm not dismissing historical and environmental variables, I just think something that deserves discussion is the currently popular myth that only whites are prosperous in America and everyone else is in varying degrees of destitution. The liberal agenda is pushing the white privilege myth extremely hard, the notion of economic wellbeing in the States is far more nuanced than that.

 

[Donner]

Sure, I'm not dismissing historical and environmental variables, I just think something that deserves discussion is the currently popular myth that only whites are prosperous in America and everyone else is in varying degrees of destitution. The liberal agenda is pushing the white privilege myth extremely hard, the notion of economic wellbeing in the States is far more nuanced than that.

Oh, for sure. I was pointing out that there are many different groups that have found a way to be prosperous in the US through luck, culture, determination, etc regardless of their race (or religion).

I think that chalking things up to white privilege ignores the other factors that play into poverty and wealth.

 

[DeadPresident]

Oh, for sure. I was pointing out that there are many different groups that have found a way to be prosperous in the US through luck, culture, determination, etc regardless of their race (or religion).

I think that chalking things up to white privilege ignores the other factors that play into poverty and wealth.

Yeah, and it's currently quite a pervasive narrative in the USA among people that don't understand how economics actually works.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Sure, but the narrative built by the liberals you tend to associate yourself with is predicated on the concept of white privilege. Whenever someone says "Whites are successful bec-" - The first response is "WHITE PRIVILEGE!" being shouted out by people foaming at the mouth.

So if white privilege is the end-all and be-all of prosperity in America why do Asian Americans out-earn every other racial demographic? Preferential immigration treatment only goes so far. At some point individual action needs to come into the equation, right? You can only lead a horse to water and all that.

I'd say the brain drain goes very far.

Upper class migrants are going to raise upper class children.

And when a large segment of your population is highly educated it will influence stereotypes which in turn influences opportunities and expectations.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Sure, I'm not dismissing historical and environmental variables, I just think something that deserves discussion is the currently popular myth that only whites are prosperous in America and everyone else is in varying degrees of destitution. The liberal agenda is pushing the white privilege myth extremely hard, the notion of economic wellbeing in the States is far more nuanced than that.

White privilege isn't just about wealth.

A poor white person might get a lighter fine or sentence. They might be welcomed into a neighborhood or family. They might get a better loan or rate. Employment prospects might be better.

Basically if two people have equal finances and equal education the darker one still won't have equal treatment from the system and society.

So rich black people have it better than poor whites but not as good as rich whites. Which means the rich whites have additional benefits simply due to race.

Ditto for middle class examples.

 

[Angryfantasyfan]

Yeah, and it's currently quite a pervasive narrative in the USA among people that don't understand how economics actually works.

Racial discrimination is very much a factor in economic success in America.

According to research, it’s not that recruiters themselves have a racial bias; instead, they fear some of their customers do.
http://fortune.com/2014/11/04/hiring-racial-bias/

Significant EEOC Race/Color Cases https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/initiatives/e-race/caselist.cfm#types

“It is shocking that such egregious and unlawful conduct toward African American employees is still occurring, even increasing, in the 21st century workplace, more than 40 years after enactment of the landmark Civil Rights Act of 1964,” says David Grinberg, spokesman for the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, also known as the EEOC.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/22575581/...sment-still-infecting-workplace/#.V9HUEq2rSSo

Statistics That Hurt: How Racial Discrimination Affects Wages http://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/article/statistics_that_hurt

 

[Angryfantasyfan]

9/11 was 15 years ago. Why do so many of us feel less safe?
Like black parents in America, brown ones have learned since 2001 to give their kids ‘the talk’: they can never be sure that they’re safe, or treated fairly

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...1-us-safety-ethnic-racial-religious-profiling

 

[2kt09]

Move to New York City and see for yourself. It's honestly being blown out of proportion, especially by my parents, as to be expected.
Speaking from an actual "brown" individual, the so-called spike in violence/hostility toward the "brown ones" is a result of you-know-what and you-know-who.
Obviously, this could be worse in historically dangerous neighborhoods.
What would NYC be w/o its historically dangerous neighborhoods?

Also, I'll let you know when a mosque comes close to that Orlando shooting.

Aside from that, most of us have been treated and continue to be treated just fine and fairly, especially considering later generations who continue to outperform their parents/grandparents.

------------------------

Segregation or Sanctuary?

 

[DeadPresident]

I'd say the brain drain goes very far.

Upper class migrants are going to raise upper class children.

And when a large segment of your population is highly educated it will influence stereotypes which in turn influences opportunities and expectations.

It does go far, but again it betrays the fact that white privilege isn't really the point, right? Education and skills and capital are the point here.

White privilege isn't just about wealth.

A poor white person might get a lighter fine or sentence. They might be welcomed into a neighborhood or family. They might get a better loan or rate. Employment prospects might be better.

Basically if two people have equal finances and equal education the darker one still won't have equal treatment from the system and society.

But what you seem to be doing on purpose is constructing a false black vs. white narrative around these variables. Why don't you compare all the variables and scenarios you've chosen between Asian, Latin and African Americans? It's coming off like you're deliberately only comparing white and black because that way you can make the false causal link that difference/disparity = discrimination, and it can only mean discrimination.

So rich black people have it better than poor whites but not as good as rich whites. Which means the rich whites have additional benefits simply due to race.

Ditto for middle class examples.

Uh...no, you can't just say things and that makes them so. What proof have you got? If you compare rich Asian and rich African Americans are those same differences going to occur in terms of legal or institutional outcomes? Why do you insist on creating a false dichotomy between black and white? And further if you insist that statistical occurrence is a cast-iron indication of discrimination or privilege then if Asian Americans are arrested at a rate lower than that of white Americans I'm assuming there's inherent Asian privilege?

http://www.nccdglobal.org/sites/default/files/publication_pdf/created-equal.pdf

That's an incredibly left-leaning piece of research, so if your assertion is that black Americans are institutionally targeted then surely those stats must mean that Asian Americans are institutionally benefited, correct? You deliberately try and keep the conversation to black vs. white because that's the only way you can try and prove this myth that white privilege and black discrimination is the sole reason why black America doesn't always fare well. Start comparing everyone with everyone else and a different picture might emerge.

Institutional racism is an issue, as that research indicates, but you seem like a broken record by blaming every single undesirable outcome in the black community on one variable. If the claims you made about white privilege were true it means every race group besides white would show statistically higher mistreatment.

Like Elektra said before, economics and poverty underpin this entire discussion. Is it coincidental that all statistics show white and Asian Americans as "benefiting" while Hispanic and African Americans seem "discriminated" against when white/Asian are the higher earners? This isn't about race, it's about class - life is worse for the impoverished irrespective of race. And obviously people get better treatment in a country where they are the majority race - that's a global phenomenon, not some racist conspiracy.

 

[DeadPresident]

Racial discrimination is very much a factor in economic success in America.

According to research, it’s not that recruiters themselves have a racial bias; instead, they fear some of their customers do.
http://fortune.com/2014/11/04/hiring-racial-bias/

Significant EEOC Race/Color Cases https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/initiatives/e-race/caselist.cfm#types


http://www.nbcnews.com/id/22575581/...sment-still-infecting-workplace/#.V9HUEq2rSSo

Statistics That Hurt: How Racial Discrimination Affects Wages http://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/article/statistics_that_hurt

Yeah, but you've got the causality backwards - again, as another user mentioned, poverty is the causal factor that hinders black and Hispanic Americans, not that being black and Hispanic causes poverty. People think it's a chicken and egg situation when it really isn't, extricate people from poverty and every other variable will improve drastically irrespective of race. Environment is almost everything.

And if it's true that people think that their customers have a racial bias that's the kind of thing that needs open and frank discussion and education instead of being some topic that never gets talked about unless it's in a masters thesis or something.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

It does go far, but again it betrays the fact that white privilege isn't really the point, right? Education and skills and capital are the point here.



But what you seem to be doing on purpose is constructing a false black vs. white narrative around these variables. Why don't you compare all the variables and scenarios you've chosen between Asian, Latin and African Americans? It's coming off like you're deliberately only comparing white and black because that way you can make the false causal link that difference/disparity = discrimination, and it can only mean discrimination.

Uh...no, you can't just say things and that makes them so. What proof have you got? If you compare rich Asian and rich African Americans are those same differences going to occur in terms of legal or institutional outcomes? Why do you insist on creating a false dichotomy between black and white? And further if you insist that statistical occurrence is a cast-iron indication of discrimination or privilege then if Asian Americans are arrested at a rate lower than that of white Americans I'm assuming there's inherent Asian privilege?

http://www.nccdglobal.org/sites/default/files/publication_pdf/created-equal.pdf

That's an incredibly left-leaning piece of research, so if your assertion is that black Americans are institutionally targeted then surely those stats must mean that Asian Americans are institutionally benefited, correct? You deliberately try and keep the conversation to black vs. white because that's the only way you can try and prove this myth that white privilege and black discrimination is the sole reason why black America doesn't always fare well. Start comparing everyone with everyone else and a different picture might emerge.

Institutional racism is an issue, as that research indicates, but you seem like a broken record by blaming every single undesirable outcome in the black community on one variable. If the claims you made about white privilege were true it means every race group besides white would show statistically higher mistreatment.

Like Elektra said before, economics and poverty underpin this entire discussion. Is it coincidental that all statistics show white and Asian Americans as "benefiting" while Hispanic and African Americans seem "discriminated" against when white/Asian are the higher earners? This isn't about race, it's about class - life is worse for the impoverished irrespective of race. And obviously people get better treatment in a country where they are the majority race - that's a global phenomenon, not some racist conspiracy.

Maybe Asian privilage exist when compared to blacks and Latinos but it doesn't come up for 3 major reasons.

1) Asians are a small percentage of the population

2) Asians don't oppose other minorities politically (in general)

3) Asians are not treated as equals to whites and still face discrimination. So among all races, white receive the best treatment within the person's social class.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/06/1...onwhites-persists-quietly-us-study-finds.html

But once they arrived, [minorities] were given fewer options. Over all, black prospective renters were presented 11 percent fewer rentals than whites, Hispanics about 12 percent fewer rentals and Asians about 10 percent fewer rentals. As prospective buyers, blacks were presented 17 percent fewer homes and Asians 15 percent fewer homes, but Hispanics were given the opportunity to see roughly the same number of homes as whites.

Also just because the majority typically recieves better treatment in their home country doesn't mean discrimination isn't a problem worth paying attention to.

Is it a racial conspiracy? No, I don't think all whites go to meetings to agree to discriminate however far right groups have their share of think tanks that are clearly influencing politics and policy on a global scale.

There are powerful people actively planning to reduce diversity, cut inner city social programs, roll back voting rights for blacks, resist police reforms, resist changes to the justice system. I wouldn't call it a conspiracy because it's pretty blatant and obvious.

*Waits to be called a broken record again despite bringing up new points*

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

I don't think black people are doing as bad as many people suggest.

Most blacks don't live in poverty, most are not criminals, most are not on welfare, most are not drop outs.

So the question becomes why judge all blacks based on the least successful 30%?

We don't do that for whites or Asians.

 

[DeadPresident]

Maybe Asian privilage exist when compared to blacks and Latinos but it doesn't come up for 3 major reasons.

1) Asians are a small percentage of the population

2) Asians don't oppose other minorities politically (in general)

3) Asians are not treated as equals to whites and still face discrimination. So among all races, white receive the best treatment within the person's social class.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/06/1...onwhites-persists-quietly-us-study-finds.html

Fair point. Discrimination is bad, but it's not the end of the world. I get that it's 2016 and being offended is worse than having a terminal illness or a gaping flesh wound.

Also, you've moved the goal posts. I mentioned that Asians by and large have superior material circumstances to everyone else in America and your rebuttal was "But some people don't want them living in their neighborhoods!" - not exactly the systematic driving out lots of liberals want people thinking is happening. I doubt it bothers most Asians earning $100,000 per household that someone in their neighborhood would prefer more white families in that neighborhood. Because for every 1 racist household chances are there are 5 normal households that don't give a crap about the ethnicity of their neighbors.

Also just because the majority typically recieves better treatment in their home country doesn't mean discrimination isn't a problem worth paying attention to.

Is it a racial conspiracy? No, I don't think all whites go to meetings to agree to discriminate however far right groups have their share of think tanks that are clearly influencing politics and policy on a global scale.

There are powerful people actively planning to reduce diversity, cut inner city social programs, roll back voting rights for blacks, resist police reforms, resist changes to the justice system. I wouldn't call it a conspiracy because it's pretty blatant and obvious.

*Waits to be called a broken record again despite bringing up new points*

Of course it's worth paying attention to, but why keep harping on about white privilege? Before I brought this up your MO in most topics, like a lot of trendy liberals was to resort to the "white privilege" card immediately. Regressive liberals believe hegemony and anyone carrying hegemonic identity categories are a plague, and once they've driven all the cishet white Christian males into the sea the USA will turn into the marxist utopia all non-cishet non-white, non-Christian, non-males deserve for their centuries of uniform oppression.

My main point is people need to start looking at facts a little more than just jumping on whatever social media witch-hunt is in vogue for a specific week.

In regard to the bold, you're stating the obvious again, dominant groups try and protect their domination - no news there. This is precisely why rednecks get up in arms over not being a majority population in the USA, because what you call white privilege is just hegemony. Of course people will fight to protect the benefits they have, this is human nature we're talking about. You're trying to rewrite human behavior here, it's admirable but it's futile. It's also the whole point of a nation state, as unpopular a sentiment as people might find it. The whole reasons there are nations, and borders, and specific rules for specific areas is because they're established to suit a specific population. Globalization is railing against that, hence why you've got so many issues in culturally diverse countries.

I don't think black people are doing as bad as many people suggest.

Most blacks don't live in poverty, most are not criminals, most are not on welfare, most are not drop outs.

So the question becomes why judge all blacks based on the least successful 30%?

We don't do that for whites or Asians.

Surely you jest? Everyone is judged according to racial stereotypes. "Crazy white kid shooter", "Laundromat owning Asian" - and you saying "Most blacks don't live in poverty" flies in the face of what you generally seem to post that would suggest black Americans are under constant siege within their own borders and are tantamount to being driven out by nefarious forces.

You're making it sound like the default way everyone looks at black Americans is according to only negative stereotypes - what proof have you got for this?