Discussion: Racism - Part 1

[TheCommissioner]

Stop paid leave when police shoot unarmed people

Stop civil forfeiture

start gutting police of poor supervision from the top down

 

[chaseter]

Saying being a cop is a "tough profession" does not changed the requirements or that fact that you have other people's life in your hands. It is a excuse for unqualified and dangerous people being cops. Just because you would be a bad cop, does not make the actual police being horrible at their jobs valid. Bad training does not justify murder. It is definite problem, but that does not change when someone is murdered by a police officer. If someone doesn't have the temperament to be a cop, they shouldn't be a cop, but if they are allowed to be one, then it doesn't change the standard they must be held to. And thus making excuses for such actions is not only dangerous.

Your making non sequitor statements to argue. Yes these cops are to blame but some places literally do not train these people well enough or devote enough resources to properly do so. This, it's also the city's fault for budget cuts. You literally reinforce my point in your post about training.

You are labeling a man who was broken down on the street a perp. Why? Furthermore why is not knowing what a person is going to do justify shooting them, or excusing why they were shot at the very least? If the cop doesn't know what they are going to do, why does that validate shooting them? Shouldn't they need to know the person is an imminent threat to shoot them, not the other way around?

He had a wrap sheet and outstanding warrants. He's a perp. Then, he starts acting weird and not complying with commands. He is partially responsible for the outcome, which was unfortunately his demise. The officer is responsible for his death and will have legal discipline if she's guilty.

No one said anything about justification in this case. Not all facts are in. If a known felon is not complying and reaches into his car...I would personally shoot him, more than likely. Again, that's why I'm not a cop. Would you take that risk of waiting to see what he pulls out?

He didn't have his hands up and he wasn't on the ground so I can see both sides of the issue. Maybe give all cops vests and helmets and non lethal rounds instead of a cotton uniform and a deadly weapon? There are alternatives. Cops also have to fear for their own lives. People rioting only ever look at one side...which is usually sensationalized.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Your making non sequitor statements to argue. Yes these cops are to blame but some places literally do not train these people well enough or devote enough resources to properly do so. This, it's also the city's fault for budget cuts. You literally reinforce my point in your post about training.

Then you missed the point. Poor training is not an excuse for killing someone. That was my point. Is poor training a problem? Yes. That does not change the responsibility of the cops, especially when it comes to lethal force.

When ever this happens the excuses about how it is a hard job and how training is poor come out, like this justifies or explains why someone was just killed.

He had a wrap sheet and outstanding warrants. He's a perp. Then, he starts acting weird and not complying with commands. He is partially responsible for the outcome, which was unfortunately his demise. The officer is responsible for his death and will have legal discipline if she's guilty.

No one said anything about justification in this case. Not all facts are in. If a known felon is not complying and reaches into his car...I would personally shoot him, more than likely. Again, that's why I'm not a cop. Would you take that risk of waiting to see what he pulls out?

He didn't have his hands up and he wasn't on the ground so I can see both sides of the issue. Maybe give all cops vests and helmets and non lethal rounds instead of a cotton uniform and a deadly weapon? There are alternatives. Cops also have to fear for their own lives. People rioting only ever look at one side...which is usually sensationalized.

Why is that relevant? Serious question. I am not a cop, nor have I ever had the desire to be one. I know I am nervous person, one who doesn't trust others. These situations aren't civilians shooting civilians, it is cops shooting unarmed suspects instead of taking any of the inherent risk of being a police officer.

I thought the major point of being a police officer was valuing the lives of others over your own? To serve and protect?

Since when has "acting weird" and "not listening" to the cops, without actually doing anything to indicate you have a weapon to kill them with, been grounds to shoot someone for a police officer? This is one of the major sources of frustration. None of that should lead to being shot or killed, and yet lets blame the victim. He is in no way responsible. The only reason it is a "problem" to do any of this is because cops are trigger happy, which isn't a fault of the victims, but the police themselves. Him having a "rap sheet" doesn't mean they get to shoot him. Also why are you acting like there was one cop there and that non-lethal means were not available? She wasn't alone and they tasered him.

By the way, he did put his hands up. They have footage that clearly shows he did.

 

[Docker2.0]

And how can you say he didn't have his hands up? He clearly did.

 

[chaseter]

http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/09/20/terence-crutcher-shot-hands-heres-definitive-proof/

They show him with his hands down in the pictures at his driver side window?

Why did he walk away from the officers?

Why did he ignore commands?

You can't say he's not partially responsible for his own death. It's sad he died but he's part of why he died.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/09/20/terence-crutcher-shot-hands-heres-definitive-proof/

They show him with his hands down in the pictures at his driver side window?

Why did he walk away from the officer's?

Why did he ignore commands?

You can't say he's not partially responsible for his own death. It's sad he died but he's part of why he died.

I can say he is not partially responsible for his own death because he is in no way responsible for his own death. What about any of that requires him to be shot? Not listening to a police officer and walking away from them makes him responsible for being shot? Walking away makes you a threat to them how?

 

[chaseter]

If for one moment you can remove from your brain the fact that no one said he is 100% responsible for his own demise:

He is actively disregarding police commands, walking to his car with open windows, and then lowers his hand to reach for something while the cops have their guns drawn. We know the cop's choice was incorrect. You can sit there and say that his choices were correct for the situation and that his actions played no part in the outcome?

 

[Thundercrack85]

Honestly, at this point we might as well stop giving police stun guns. Waste of money. Save it for the wrongful death settlements their trigger happiness causes.

I think, or hope anyway, that most police are good people, but God damn. This is getting ridiculous.

 

[Raiden]

How come cops always use lethal force first? They should be trained to take down the suspect through other non lethal means first.

 

[Thundercrack85]

How come cops always use lethal force first? They should be trained to take down the suspect through other non lethal means first.

It's safer, and the current police-justice system essentially encourages it.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

If for one moment you can remove from your brain the fact that no one said he is 100% responsible for his own demise:

He is actively disregarding police commands, walking to his car with open windows, and then lowers his hand to reach for something while the cops have their guns drawn. We know the cop's choice was incorrect. You can sit there and say that his choices were correct for the situation and that his actions played no part in the outcome?

If for one moment you can realize that not listening to the cops is not an offence for one to be shot for, especially when you haven't committed a crime, then you will realize you can't be responsible for your own demise at the hands of a cop that had no reason to shoot. You are leaping from "not listening to cops" to "death".

Actively disregarding police commands without a weapon is not a demonstration of imminent danger. It does not require anyone to be shot. And his window wasn't open. Have you seen the photos? There is blood on the window. How was it down?

His actions had nothing to do with it, because his action didn't present a scenario where he should be shot. That is why the officer is being charged.

 

[OcStat]

Honestly, at this point we might as well stop giving police stun guns. Waste of money. Save it for the wrongful death settlements their trigger happiness causes.

I think, or hope anyway, that most police are good people, but God damn. This is getting ridiculous.

Getting? We're living in ridiculous already, we've been there... here ... for a while. Far as I can tell anyway.

But what do I know. Been fortunate my city of 100,000 hasn't had any problems of that nature. There's a guy sheriff's shot 30 times who was mentally ill, but he had a weapon. Don't think that justifies 5 or 6 people unloading into him from yards and yards away. And I'd like to be sure Hispanics aren't harrassed at all and are always treated fairly in my local judicial system.

180-or-so miles away in Pheonix I know that isn't the case.

On the subject at hand, If these "public servants" were more thoroughly trained, and taught de-escalation, like in EU, we'd be way better off.

It's safer, and the current police-justice system essentially encourages it.

Safer for everyone except the person who hasn't actually been convicted of anything yet. For God's sake people aren't even living to the point to get arrested and charged.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

That is the thing. We get a lot of talk about how dangerous being a police officer is, but they have progressively been taking the risk out of it not by better training, better tactics, etc. But through cops valuing their lives first and foremost, and shooting whenever presented with any risk. And it has been ingrained in so many police departments that black men are an inherent risk.

 

[E.NormusJohnson]

I can say he is not partially responsible for his own death because he is in no way responsible for his own death.

And you'd be wrong. Had he obeyed the officers commands the likely outcome is that he'd still be alive. If you go by logic disregarding the officers commands lead to him being shot (regardless if lethal force was required or not) so he is in fact absolutely responsible.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

And you'd be wrong. Had he obeyed the officers commands the likely outcome is that he'd still be alive. If you go by logic disregarding the officers commands lead to him being shot (regardless if lethal force was required or not) so he is in fact absolutely responsible.

You mean like that time Philando Castile was doing as the cop told him, before he was shot to death? Or the time Charles Kinsey was on the ground, with his hands in the air, telling the cops the young man he was with was autistic, was shot? How about the man who did nothing, was murdered, and then had a gun planted on him?

That is the thing about these interactions with the cops. It doesn't seem to matter what the black man does. It is all up to the cop with the gun. This is exactly why cops don't want dash or body cams. It is exactly why they don't want to release footage when they have it.

 

[Sithborg]

You left out that Charles Kinsey was shot on accident. They were trying to shoot the autistic guy. My brother the cop is completely 1000% for that guy losing his badge.

 

[giveyourself12%]

You mean like that time Philando Castile was doing as the cop told him, before he was shot to death?

According to the cop, he didn't. "I told him not to reach."
I'm not familiar with the other case you mentioned so I won't comment on it.

That is the thing about these interactions with the cops. It doesn't seem to matter what the black man does.

In these cases there is a common denominator of non compliance, possibly barring the Castile case. Why can't some folks just do what the police tell them to do to avoid escalating the situation?

"Get on the ground." "Nah, I'll walk the other way."

"Put your hands behind your back." " Nah, I'll stand here and pull away from you while arguing with you".

"Come let us execute this bench warrant as issued by a judge." "Nah, I'll point a gun at you, threaten to kill you if you don't leave, and use my kid as a human shield."

Is it a problem with authority? I have one too, but sure as hell ain't gonna get into a pissing contest with law enforcement over it.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Defiance of law enforcement should not be grounds for summary execution.

Also, this notion that you must do exactly what the police say also seems dubious to me. Why? Because they have a gun and will kill you? A police officer is not meant to be judge, jury and executioner. They can be, and quite often are, wrong.

I mean, I realize given how trigger happy and poorly trained American police are, it's wise to do everything they say. They might kill you in broad daylight, if you don't. But I will still challenge the notion that they are infallible.

 

[giveyourself12%]

Defiance of law enforcement should not be grounds for summary execution.

It's not. It is grounds for them to increase the amount of force necessary to get you to comply until you do so they can do their job and go home.

Also, this notion that you must do exactly what the police say also seems dubious to me. Why? Because they have a gun and will kill you?

No. You do it because it's the most correct, safe, and smart thing to do. What would you get out of defying them? Momentary satisfaction that no one's gonna tell you what to do?

If you were a cop, what would you do with a non compliant suspect, just agree to disagree?

A police officer is not meant to be judge, jury and executioner. They can be, and quite often are, wrong

.

As are many people in any profession.

I mean, I realize given how trigger happy and poorly trained American police are, it's wise to do everything they say. They might kill you in broad daylight, if you don't.

Way to generalize.

But I will still challenge the notion that they are infallible.

No one is infallible. That doesn't even need to be challenged.

 

[Marvolo]

Cops need to get over the fact that people can and will disobey. They cant execute people for not obeying any request. Some of them need to stop letting their pride and emotions control them. And some need to stop thinking of a badge as a right ro bully citizens.

The only time a cop should go for their gun is if they see a gun and even then they should only reach for their gun when a tazer cant disable the person and if they do have to use their gun they should not be attempting to kill the person. They need to train to shoot to avoid vital organs.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

You mean like that time Philando Castile was doing as the cop told him, before he was shot to death? Or the time Charles Kinsey was on the ground, with his hands in the air, telling the cops the young man he was with was autistic, was shot? How about the man who did nothing, was murdered, and then had a gun planted on him?

That is the thing about these interactions with the cops. It doesn't seem to matter what the black man does. It is all up to the cop with the gun. This is exactly why cops don't want dash or body cams. It is exactly why they don't want to release footage when they have it.

Yeah I'm not seeing any videos of whites being shot for complying with police or flat out helping people.

If you're so scared of black men that someone with their hands up or complying is a dangerous threat then do the world a favor and change professions. Your racism is going to get an innocent person killed.

 

[DeadPresident]

Yeah I'm not seeing any videos of whites being shot for complying with police or flat out helping people.

If you're so scared of black men that someone with their hands up or complying is a dangerous threat then do the world a favor and change professions. Your racism is going to get an innocent person killed.

This is the danger with the social media generation, we assume because we don't see something plastered over social media it doesn't happen. In reality what people need to understand is the media shows what gets the most traction, so something not appearing in the media doesn't mean it doesn't happen. This doesn't negate the fact that there seems to be some kind of bias in terms of police interaction with different races, but jumping straight to "white cops shoot black men more" because we see lots of videos about it is a really horrible leap in logic.

We need more specific hard data on this, media stories are a sample - not the population, but people make sweeping assessments of a population based on a sample of stories.

 

[summerteeth]

This is the danger with the social media generation, we assume because we don't see something plastered over social media it doesn't happen. In reality what people need to understand is the media shows what gets the most traction, so something not appearing in the media doesn't mean it doesn't happen. This doesn't negate the fact that there seems to be some kind of bias in terms of police interaction with different races, but jumping straight to "white cops shoot black men more" because we see lots of videos about it is a really horrible leap in logic.

We need more specific hard data on this, media stories are a sample - not the population, but people make sweeping assessments of a population based on a sample of stories.

Right, white people get shot by cops all the time too. While 50 unarmed white people and 50 unarmed black people were shot and killed. While white people are the majority so more black people are being killed when we look at proportions. That being said black people encounter police at a higher rate because of the correlation between poverty and crime. So the numbers really are not that out of proportion when you take that into consideration.

I do think cops need to change how they are trained to find more ways to subdue criminals while also making sure that body cams and dash cams are worn/displayed.

 

[giveyourself12%]

Cops need to get over the fact that people can and will disobey.

You're saying cops need to get over people breaking the law? In what world does that make sense?

They cant execute people for not obeying any request.

That's not what's happening in the majority of these cases.

Some of them need to stop letting their pride and emotions control them.

Nail on head, in my opinion, as to why a lot of people are resisting lawful orders from the police.

And some need to stop thinking of a badge as a right ro bully citizens.

I agree.

The only time a cop should go for their gun is if they see a gun and even then they should only reach for their gun when a tazer cant disable the person and if they do have to use their gun they should not be attempting to kill the person. They need to train to shoot to avoid vital organs.

If that becomes the norm, you'll see a lot more dead cops. Someone shot in the leg can still shoot you.

Police procedure is in place for the civilian's safety as well as the officer's. If someone pulls a gun on a cop, they are intending to kill or make the officer think they are intending to kill them.

If someone pulls a gun on you, are you gonna think, " I'm about to get shot!" Or are you gonna think about non lethal ways to subdue the gunman or gunwoman. The gun-ist.

 

[DeadPresident]

Right, white people get shot by cops all the time too. While 50 unarmed white people and 50 unarmed black people were shot and killed. While white people are the majority so more black people are being killed when we look at proportions. That being said black people encounter police at a higher rate because of the correlation between poverty and crime. So the numbers really are not that out of proportion when you take that into consideration.

I do think cops need to change how they are trained to find more ways to subdue criminals while also making sure that body cams and dash cams are worn/displayed.

We need more statistics before we make claims like that, I've seen some stats that don't support the narrative that black males are killed more often and I've seen some stats that do support it. I'll try and find the most recent piece of research that I saw and edit this post.

That being said, I'm not saying that when these murders occur with white cops and black men that there isn't something else at play, but I don't think it's the concerted and statistically egregious phenomenon people are claiming.