Discussion: Racism - Part 1

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For the record, much as people stopping traffic annoy me, I don't think you should have the right to run them down. However, they should definitely be arrested if they refuse to stop blocking traffic.

Peaceful protest doesn't give you the right to block a highway.

Strategically, I also question this notion that causing traffic jams will help your political cause. All you're doing is annoying people who might actually be sympathetic to your cause.
 
Who cares about stopping traffic...rioting and looting is SHRN.
 
Yeah that's not the way the world works. You have a split second to act. They aren't wearing shirts that say guilty.

Yet some people are waaaaaay more trigger happy than others.

Which one would you prefer pull you over and ask you to reach into your dark glove compartment?
 
I understand that there is a lot of pressure, but police should at least attempt to use nonlethal force before using lethal force when possible. Crutcher wasn't even armed.

A lot of police seem to be going with "shoot first, ask questions later".
 
A lot of police seem to be going with "shoot first, ask questions later".
Messiah made the more accurate assertion.
Yet some people are waaaaaay more trigger happy than others.

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I understand that there is a lot of pressure, but police should at least attempt to use nonlethal force before using lethal force when possible. Crutcher wasn't even armed.
Just read that the officer was booked for manslaughter, paid bond, and is awaiting proceedings that could land her in 4 years-life if convicted.
 
If I were a cop I'd rather be killed on duty than kill an innocent person.
If you were killed on duty that would make the person not innocent in a big way.

How could anyone live with themselves killing a son, a brother, a husband and/or a father who did nothing wrong?
I don't know but I'd like it if you were more specific about what constitutes doing nothing wrong.

So basically I would treat suspects like most cops treat rich white ladies. Lots of negotiation and de-escalation and perhaps a tasering before any lethal force is considered.

Like Korryn Gaines? I think the negotiating went on for about six hours and she still threatened to kill the responding officers as well as pointed her shotgun at them. Would you seriously deploy a taser while facing a gun and explicit imminent threats on your life?
 
While I don't think it's right to simply run over someone. Those people were blocking a highway, they have no right to delay traffic like that regardless if they are right or wrong.

Any group that shuts down a highway should be arrested.

Don't be so ignorant. I clearly stated that I am fine with peaceful protest. What I am NOT fine with is protest that interferes with the free movement and rights of others. If Civil Rights protestors did that, I'd have a problem with them. If they didn't, I wouldn't.

I'm not politically motivated in my beliefs on this. I don't care what the cause is. Get a bunch of Tea Partiers protesting and blocking traffic, and I'll be just as satisfied when someone in a car doesn't put up with that crap and drives (slowly) through them.

I doubt what I said will stop you from trying to infer some mustache-twirling, evil racist motives on my part, though . . . but, that's on you . . .

For the record, much as people stopping traffic annoy me, I don't think you should have the right to run them down. However, they should definitely be arrested if they refuse to stop blocking traffic.

Peaceful protest doesn't give you the right to block a highway.

Strategically, I also question this notion that causing traffic jams will help your political cause. All you're doing is annoying people who might actually be sympathetic to your cause.

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I'm pretty sure some of you guys grandparents said the same thing back then... :(:(
 
I'm not denying that those occur and I'm not denying that institutional racism exists, or that it influences these interactions.

What I'm saying is the root cause is poverty, and the solution to the institutional racism is socioeconomic - not social. There are racist cops out there, that's a fact, and they reinforce and perpetuate their racism by targeting poor areas because crime is more prevalent in lower income areas all over the world, another fact.

The remedy for this isn't disciplining or re-socializing cops although that may help, the remedy for this is investing in lower income areas and getting all of black America in the middle class. Whoever wants to tell you there's a better way of solving this isn't actually interested in solving it; material circumstance is the most crucial factor of this discussion - it is the source. People can treat symptoms all they want, I believe the efficient way to solve it is by treating the cause, not the effects.



No, I'm fairly familiar with it.


I don't think many of the people who have had bad run ins with LE were poor or below poverty level..

You can draw a direct line from police brutality and cops who abuse their authority today right back to the LE of the 1800s post slavery. LE has ALWAYS been used as a force to keep the black community under thumb and LE agents have always had wide discretion in how they uphold the law as long as they upheld the law be it codified or defacto.

In the United States, the Black Codes were laws passed by Southern states in 1865 and 1866, after the Civil War. As the war ended, the US Army implemented Black Codes to regulate the behavior of Black people in general society. A central element of the Black Codes were vagrancy laws. States criminalized men who were out of work, or who were not working at a job whites recognized. Failure to pay a certain tax, or to comply with other laws, could also be construed as vagrancy.

Nine southern states updated their vagrancy laws in 1865–1866. Of these, eight allowed convict leasing (a system in which state prison hired out convicts for labor) and five allowed prisoner labor for public works projects. This created a system that established incentives to arrest black men, as convicts were supplied to local governments and planters as workers.

Jim Crow laws came after and lasted from 1870s to the 1960s just like with Black Codes Law Enforcement was given wide discretion on how to enforce and uphold the law where minorities were concerned.

In the late 20st century...you see this again with the war on drugs and privatization of the prison system. Again LE exercised wide discretion in jailing, profiling and killing blacks based on the laws and attitudes of today.

Just LAST YEAR the JUSTICE DEPARTMENT released a report that found that LE was still operating on some system that was used to enforce Jim Crow laws. Ronald Davis, Community Oriented Policing Services director for the Department of Justice, said at an event at the Center for American Progress. “These are operational systems and policies and practices that exist today.”

Its the legacy of those laws that fill jails with black men in disproportionate numbers since they've been keeping stats on it. Its the legacy of those laws thats shaped the perception of "black on black crime".
 
If you were killed on duty that would make the person not innocent in a big way.

I'll put it this way, I'd rather hesitate to kill someone who ends up killing me than be trigger happy in general and kill someone who wasn't a real cop killer.

I don't know but I'd like it if you were more specific about what constitutes doing nothing wrong.

Well think about the most common cop defense. Do they ever go with "he resisted" or "he didn't comply"?

They don't because they would get life in prison.

The most common defense is "he had a weapon and was trying to kill me" and that's one of the only justification to kill someone.

Like Korryn Gaines? I think the negotiating went on for about six hours and she still threatened to kill the responding officers as well as pointed her shotgun at them. Would you seriously deploy a taser while facing a gun and explicit imminent threats on your life?

Cop killers are very rare.

Most of these police shooting videos show cops killing people who didn't need to killed or shot.

They weren't trying to be cop killers.
 
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While I don't think it's right to simply run over someone. Those people were blocking a highway, they have no right to delay traffic like that regardless if they are right or wrong.

Any group that shuts down a highway should be arrested.

Running over people or assault =/= police removing civil disobedient protestors in a way no one gets hurt
 
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If I were a cop I'd rather be killed on duty than kill an innocent person.

How could anyone live with themselves killing a son, a brother, a husband and/or a father who did nothing wrong?

So basically I would treat suspects like most cops treat rich white ladies. Lots of negotiation and de-escalation and perhaps a tasering before any lethal force is considered.

Can't cops use stun guns or something else non-lethal? Not that I know much about the effects of using them.
 
I'm beginning to think that the cops are doing a trial run for The Purge. They're testing the waters to see how the general public would react.
 
I'm beginning to think that the cops are doing a trial run for The Purge. They're testing the waters to see how the general public would react.

Seen the news lately? They're reacting to The Purge.

I'm pretty sure some of you guys grandparents said the same thing back then... :(:(
Haven't yet come across footage depicting riot police being that bad
with the worst cases (pepper spraying and shooting paintball shots) dating back 2 years or more.
 
The dude they caught trying to bomb people had a shootout with police and was still taken in alive.

How are unarmed people following orders being killed if this is the case?
 
The dude they caught trying to bomb people had a shootout with police and was still taken in alive.

How are unarmed people following orders being killed if this is the case?

Without knowing any of the circumstances it would be foolish to think anything....

I agree, far too many people are losing their lives....but any kind of comparison this early is just that...too early to know anything.
 
Some of the comments on here are blowing my mind. Coming from people that have not walked one second in the shoes of a police officer.

I do not like what I am seeing happening in our streets today, whether it is the mishandling of situations by "some" officers, or the multiple shootings happening everywhere, especially Chicago. But to even think I could come anywhere near understanding what police officers go through when walking into unknown circumstances keeps my mouth shut on that particular subject.

More programs like these should be in schools...

 
Being ex-military I have a vague understanding of what it's like to be in the line of duty where those around you may or may not want to kill you. During my partying days I also often found myself around several folks of questionable morality who made their living via illegal means. I think a good amount of it is many of the officers should've been screened better as well as trained better. Several had clear things on their records which would tell most normal people they're not cut out to wear the badge. I was always trained to keep my finger off of the trigger unless I was ready to kill. Adrenaline and nerves can get the best of anyone and in the heat of the moment everything can become a blur which is what I think may have happened with the female officer in this most recent shooting.

Bottom line for me is if you want to wear the badge then you have to hold yourself to a higher standard than most and it's your duty to make sure you're capable of not only dealing with the stress but also prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice in the line of duty. I feel it's the officers who haven't fully grasped those things that don't react well when under pressure.

That being said these negative stories always get the spotlight but the majority of officers out there are good men and women who do the right thing the vast majority of the time day in and day out with little thanks. It's those men and women that need to be remembered when these situations arise.
 
Some of the comments on here are blowing my mind. Coming from people that have not walked one second in the shoes of a police officer.

I do not like what I am seeing happening in our streets today, whether it is the mishandling of situations by "some" officers, or the multiple shootings happening everywhere, especially Chicago. But to even think I could come anywhere near understanding what police officers go through when walking into unknown circumstances keeps my mouth shut on that particular subject.

More programs like these should be in schools...



Being ex-military I have a vague understanding of what it's like to be in the line of duty where those around you may or may not want to kill you. During my partying days I also often found myself around several folks of questionable morality who made their living via illegal means. I think a good amount of it is many of the officers should've been screened better as well as trained better. Several had clear things on their records which would tell most normal people they're not cut out to wear the badge. I was always trained to keep my finger off of the trigger unless I was ready to kill. Adrenaline and nerves can get the best of anyone and in the heat of the moment everything can become a blur which is what I think may have happened with the female officer in this most recent shooting.

Bottom line for me is if you want to wear the badge then you have to hold yourself to a higher standard than most and it's your duty to make sure you're capable of not only dealing with the stress but also prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice in the line of duty. I feel it's the officers who haven't fully grasped those things that don't react well when under pressure.

That being said these negative stories always get the spotlight but the majority of officers out there are good men and women who do the right thing the vast majority of the time day in and day out with little thanks. It's those men and women that need to be remembered when these situations arise.

I'm glad you said cops should be held to a higher standard...

I saw a youtube vid of a cop talking about all the good things she's done, helped the elderly, saved a baby etc etc..I don't dispute any of that..but heres some questions:

How many cops in her dept does she know that are racist?
How many cops in her dept does she know are corrupt?
How many cops in her dept does she know cut corners?
How many have done something wrong and their partner covered for them, or the FOP or she was asked to not say anything about some illegal thing or violation a cop did?

At the core of all of this is how people think and perceive one another and how they act upon that. If there is a person with a badge and gun patrolling a neighborhood, the residents of which he thinks are subhuman that community is going to have a problem. And the only way to deal with that problem is to weed that type of person of out.

Its not enough to say their are some "bad apples" but the majority are good. if the good ones tolarate the bad ones then nothing changes. The black community is constantly told we need to clean up our own neighborhoods but the police community is never told to do the same.
 
Some of the comments on here are blowing my mind. Coming from people that have not walked one second in the shoes of a police officer.

I do not like what I am seeing happening in our streets today, whether it is the mishandling of situations by "some" officers, or the multiple shootings happening everywhere, especially Chicago. But to even think I could come anywhere near understanding what police officers go through when walking into unknown circumstances keeps my mouth shut on that particular subject.

More programs like these should be in schools...




Did the cops learn anything from the role play about being trigger happy? A teenage role player pulled a "gun" on them simply for not complying.

I thought the program was for both sides to empathize with each other.
 
I'm glad you said cops should be held to a higher standard...

I saw a youtube vid of a cop talking about all the good things she's done, helped the elderly, saved a baby etc etc..I don't dispute any of that..but heres some questions:

How many cops in her dept does she know that are racist?
How many cops in her dept does she know are corrupt?
How many cops in her dept does she know cut corners?
How many have done something wrong and their partner covered for them, or the FOP or she was asked to not say anything about some illegal thing or violation a cop did?

At the core of all of this is how people think and perceive one another and how they act upon that. If there is a person with a badge and gun patrolling a neighborhood, the residents of which he thinks are subhuman that community is going to have a problem. And the only way to deal with that problem is to weed that type of person of out.

Its not enough to say their are some "bad apples" but the majority are good. if the good ones tolarate the bad ones then nothing changes. The black community is constantly told we need to clean up our own neighborhoods but the police community is never told to do the same.

I completely agree here, much like the military, being an officer brings about a bond and sense of brotherhood that can make some complicit with turning a blind eye to things they know are wrong. Either because they know they will be blackballed by the rest of their fellow officers or they think it will be more hassle than it's worth to put themselves out there like that. That is a huge problem but when one finds themselves having to have complete faith in their fellow officers because their very lives may depend upon it one day then it becomes a very complex issue.
 
Did the cops learn anything from the role play about being trigger happy? A teenage role player pulled a "gun" on them simply for not complying.

I thought the program was for both sides to empathize with each other.
Not quite.

Unless it's directly stated that these are soon-to-be officers in active field training, this absolutely shouldn't be the first time these cops are learning about this.

If it wasn't already obvious, this is for the inexperienced to develop some experience/perspective and for law enforcement to get that refresher course.
 
Not quite.

Unless it's directly stated that these are soon-to-be officers in active field training, this absolutely shouldn't be the first time these cops are learning about this.

If it wasn't already obvious, this is for the inexperienced to develop some experience/perspective and for law enforcement to get that refresher course.

Well based on the black community's constant accusation of poor treatment from the police maybe there's some room for improvement from the law enforcement side.

Unless the assumption is that police don't need any reforms and any complaints about the police are delusional.
 
CNN’s Burnett Shares That Most Arrested NC Protesters Were From Out of State

This seems to be the pattern in most cases where there's been rioting and looting. Those who live in the communities tend to care about their area and don't destroy things while the outsiders are the ones who come in and ramp up the violence because they don't really care one way or another about what happens afterwards.
 
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