Discussion: Racism - Part 1

[Thundercrack85]

I think Black Lives Matters has run its course.

 

[Mad Ones]

But BLM does stuff like shutting down a gay pride parade, or heckling Bernie Sanders of all people. Stuff that has nothing to do with holding accountable the people actually doing the oppression or persecution. It's attention ****ing.

I was at Toronto pride. I saw cops shoot crowds with water guns and pander to children. After BLM marched yelling the names of black people shot by cops with real guns. BLM is demanding pride cut ties with systems of state violence and colonialism. Black queers and trans people are pride, they can do whatever they want with it.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I was at Toronto pride. I saw cops shoot crowds with water guns and pander to children. After BLM marched yelling the names of black people shot by cops with real guns. BLM is demanding pride cut ties with systems of state violence and colonialism. Black queers and trans people are pride, they can do whatever they want with it.

What does this have to do with trying to dictate what the parade was about, and delaying it? There is few things more obnoxious asserting your issues are superior to others.

 

[Mad Ones]

What does this have to do with trying to dictate what the parade was about, and delaying it? There is few things more obnoxious asserting your issues are superior to others.

What issues are they saying they are superior to? Have you even read their list of demands? They organized around demanding principles pride never should have forgotten.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

What issues are they saying they are superior to? Have you even read their list of demands? They organized around demanding principles pride never should have forgotten.

They had a list of demands. That in and of itself in insane. They demand they hire more black workers? Don't let the police walk with the parade? Oh by the way you lot are anti-black. It is obnoxious and divisive, and threatening a celebration of love and inclusiveness like that is just down right dumb. And by doing it, you are stating that your issues are of a superior importance. Because if you don't get what you want, the rest of the people here don't get their celebration.

It is no different then that Hispanic student who got up at a vigil for those murdered in the night club shooting in Florida, and complaining that there were too many white people there. That their BLM rallies didn't get enough of these people. No, just no.

 

[Mad Ones]

They had a list of demands. That in and of itself in insane. They demand they hire more black workers? Don't let the police walk with the parade, oh by the way you lot are anti-black. It is obnoxious and divisive, and threatening a celebration of love and inclusiveness like that is just down right dumb. And by doing it, you are stating that your issues are of a superior importance.

It is no different then that Hispanic student who got up at a vigil for those murdered in the night club shooting in Florida, and complaining that there were too many white people there. That their BLM rallies didn't get enough of these people. No, just no.

Threatening a celebration of love and inclusiveness? You do realize pride is a corporate **** show and mostly an opportunity for banks and militaries to pinkwash themselves to distract from their participation in systems that do harm to marginalized peoples? Pride is meant to be a protest. Pride is the work of black queer and trans peoples throwing bricks at police at stonewall and in bathhouse riots. BLM is demanding that we centre and make safe the most vulnerable peoples in our communities, which was pride's purpose before it was coopted. The fact that BLM had to make those demands at all, that they aren't the first thing pride looks after, is a huge problem.

Continued space, including stage and tents, funding and logistical support for Black Queer Youth.
Self-determination for all community spaces at Pride, allowing community groups full control over hiring, content and structure of their stages.
Full and adequate funding for community stages, including logistical, technical and personnel support.
Doubling of funding for Blockorama to $13,000.
Reinstatement of the South Asian stage.
Prioritizing of the hiring of Black transwomen, Indigenous people and others from vulnerable communities at Pride Toronto.
More Black deaf and hearing sign language interpreters for the festival.
Removal of police floats in the Pride marches and parades.
A town hall organized in conjunction with groups from marginalized communities, including but not limited to Black Lives Matter – Toronto, Blackness Yes and Black Queer Youth, in six months, where Pride Toronto will present an update and action plan on BLM-TO’s demands.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Threatening a celebration of love and inclusiveness? You do realize pride is a corporate **** show and mostly an opportunity for banks and militaries to pinkwash themselves to distract from their participation in systems that do harm to marginalized peoples? Pride is meant to be a protest. Pride is the work of black queer and trans peoples throwing bricks at police at stonewall and in bathhouse riots. BLM is demanding that we centre and make safe the most vulnerable peoples in our communities, which was pride's purpose before it was coopted. The fact that BLM had to make those demands at all, that they aren't the first thing pride looks after, is a huge problem.

If it is a problem, why where they there in the first place? Why did the accept the status as honorary guest? Why did they tell them to kick the police out? Why are they making demands at all?

By the way, throwing all the stuff in there to distract from the obvious in the moment demand (kick the police out) doesn't obscure what they were doing. As someone who hasn't totally had it with the BLM, it is too obvious and it is embarrassing.

 

[Mad Ones]

If it is a problem, why where they there in the first place? Why did the accept the status as honorary guest? Why did they tell them to kick the police out? Why are they making demands at all?

By the way, throwing all the stuff in there to distract from the obvious in the moment demand (kick the police out) doesn't obscure what they were doing. As someone who hasn't totally had it with the BLM, it is too obvious and it is embarrassing.

Because pride is strategic and BLM won't be appeased by token gestures. They were there to make lasting changes. Because queer communities don't default to white like pride normally wants us to believe. All those demands are important and come from listening to marginal communities because someone has to (ie TD sure doesn't).

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Because pride is strategic and BLM won't be appeased by token gestures. They were there to make lasting changes. Because queer communities don't default to white like pride normally wants us to believe. All those demands are important and come from listening to marginal communities because someone has to (ie TD sure doesn't).

So they hold a parade hostage? They didn't come with a position before? If Pride is crap and they want no part of it, why show up and then demand to run the show? They came and spouted hate speech as well. Saying that Pride is anti-black. How is that constructive?

By the way, what part of these lasting changes need to have the police kicked out? How is that not asking for a token gesture?

 

[Mad Ones]

So they hold a parade hostage? They didn't come with a position before? If Pride is crap and they want no part of it, why show up and then demand to run the show? They came and spouted hate speech as well. Saying that Pride is anti-black. How is that constructive?

By the way, what part of these lasting changes need to have the police kicked out? How is that not asking for a token gesture?

Why are you saying BLM held pride hostage, but not saying TD has held pride hostage for years? BLM is fighting against pride's cooption by making it political again. Pride was meant to look after the most vulnerable in the community and it does not do that anymore. Just because white gays are no longer the cops' target doesn't mean cops get to march in the protest that was created to fight them. Black queers don't feel safe in the presence of cops because black queers are profiled and killed by cops.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Why are you saying BLM held pride hostage, but not saying TD has held pride hostage for years? BLM is fighting against pride's cooption by making it political again. Pride was meant to look after the most vulnerable in the community and it does not do that anymore. Just because white gays are no longer the cops' target doesn't mean cops get to march in the protest that was created to fight them. Black queers don't feel safe in the presence of cops because black queers are profiled and killed by cops.

What is TD?

So we ostracize gay cops because they are cops? That makes no sense. Especially as these are people walking in a Pride parade. That is division.

You are also avoiding the issue. If Pride is no good, why where BLM there at all? Why not decline the invite or say they won't show up? Why show up at the parade and literally hold it hostage? How is that not grand standing? How is that not making about themselves, especially with the language used?

 

[Mad Ones]

What is TD?

So we ostracize gay cops because they are cops? That makes no sense. Especially as these are people walking in a Pride parade. That is division.

You are also avoiding the issue. If Pride is no good, why where BLM there at all? Why not decline the invite or say they won't show up? Why show up at the parade and literally hold it hostage? How is that not grand standing? How is that not making about themselves, especially with the language used?

TD Canada Trust. It's the bank that basically bought and now owns Toronto Pride.

If you are gay and a cop and want to march then march out of uniform. March with a group that doesn't reinforce a system that makes black queers vulnerable.

BLM is there because black queers, black trans people, and black drag queens are the reason pride exists, but have effectively been shoved out of organizing because banks and corporations can throw money to set the agenda (the agenda being ad space on queer bodies, tourism). Pride has become the largest platform for queer voices, and disrupting the script so that the most vulnerable are heard is important.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

TD Canada Trust. It's the bank that basically bought and now owns Toronto Pride.

I am curious, how did this come to be?

If you are gay and a cop then march out of uniform. March with a group that doesn't reinforce a system that makes black queers vulnerable.

So march in a parade that reinforces the idea that all cops are bad?

This makes no sense for two, I feel obvious reasons. The first being, any progress starts with inclusion. You don't exclude someone, unless of course they have done something to deserve it. What have these cops marching on a float in Pride done to make black gay people vulnerable?

Second, does this not show an attempt to build bridges when you march in such a parade? The same way those cops in Texas were showing they believed in fixing things when they were out there with the protesters, joining them, showing them respect? And then someone comes in an decides, "no, I like it better when we are divided". It doesn't matter if you are black, white, Hispanic, gay, straight, bi, transgender, etc.

If you believe in pursuing change, what progress do you make by turning people away who are trying to help with change? How is that not hate, how is that not missing the point?

BLM is there because black queers, black trans people, and black drag queens are the reason pride exists, but have effectively been shoved out of organizing because banks can throw money to set the agenda. Pride has become the largest queer platform and disrupting the script so that it is once again a protest is important for the most vulnerable communities.

So has BLM been doing this at all Pride parades? Have they started their own Pride chapters, providing an actual platform for these people? If Pride is corrupt, why use Pride at all?

This is one of the biggest problems with the BLM movement. They don't provide solutions, they provide anger.

 

[Mad Ones]

http://chrismilloy.ca/2015/07/my-open-letter-of-resignation-from-pride-toronto/
There are lots of articles like this out there. The stories are often backroom politics, stories of black trans activists not being invited, invited last minute, being underpaid, or an after thought.

Cops are included in the state. Pride is not about advocating for cops rights and inclusion - that's ridiculous. Is state sanctioned police violence about individual cops? No. Framing cops that murder as individuals and their crimes as isolated ignores how police violence is a system that marginalizes black queers, which removes any sense of accountability that can change that system. Ignoring it has just let more black people die. That system should not be anywhere near pride parades - especially as gay rights is used more and more to justify state action and hide a lot of nasty things (re: Jasbir Puar and her writing on homonationalism)

Cops marching in pride does nothing to help. Sure white gays might feel safe - cops are meant to protect their interests and consuming potential (white gays are now a huge consumer demographic, you know). Black people have made it loud and clear that they do not feel safe. Cops march in parades so that they can look or feel LGBT friendly, especially when LGBT defaults as white. Meanwhile, black trans people are profiled and murdered.

Yes, BLM is angry. Angry enough to throw stones, which is the actual history of pride. They're mad because the words "Black Lives Matter" are controversial. They can't even say their lives matter without white people adding a caveat and reciting the dictionary at them. BLM has to be angry and loud because they are competing with the navy's trumpets and the sounds of corporations cashing their cheques.

BLM led a powerful trans march that I walked in at pride. However, that protest can be ignored if you don't care, which most people don't, honestly. People are mad because BLM made it so they couldn't ignore these uncomfortable realities by interrupting the parade they care about. Making pride a protest should not be controversial. What do you want BLM to do? Start another black queer protest march so that it can get coopted again?

 

[Thundercrack85]

Pride parades accomplish very little, it's all done at the ballot box and in the court room.

I mean if you want to have a parade, or a protest, go for it. But don't expect anything to change. That takes actual legal action.

 

[TheCommissioner]

BLM has earned the right to be angry

Im tired of seeing unarmed black people turn up dead at the hands of police day after day week after week

Erik Garner was KILLED ON FILM and nothing happened to the officer who MURDERED HIM

how anyone can not be mad after that is beyond me

 

[Charlatan]

But BLM does stuff like shutting down a gay pride parade, or heckling Bernie Sanders of all people. Stuff that has nothing to do with holding accountable the people actually doing the oppression or persecution. It's attention ****ing.

that's the point of protesting. getting people's attention. if the media ignores you then you have to do something to get their attention so they inconvenience people. Civil disobedience is a time honored tool of the citizens to force change. As long as they don't start fires and throw rocks or worse then I'm okay with forcing some people to drive around their demonstration.

 

[Charlatan]

BLM has earned the right to be angry

Im tired of seeing unarmed black people turn up dead at the hands of police day after day week after week

Erik Garner was KILLED ON FILM and nothing happened to the officer who MURDERED HIM

how anyone can not be mad after that is beyond me

or the young kid playing with a toy gun who never got the chance to drop it.

or the guy choked to death for selling cigarettes.

or the schoolteacher sitting in the car with his wife and kid who were pulled over because of the cop mistaking them for someone else. killed in front of his kid.

there are a lot of cops out there who are unfit to carry a gun. they get all jacked up on adrenaline and will shoot a black person if they look at them the wrong way.

 

[Mad Ones]

Pride parades accomplish very little, it's all done at the ballot box and in the court room.

I mean if you want to have a parade, or a protest, go for it. But don't expect anything to change. That takes actual legal action.

uh murder is already illegal.

 

[Schlosser85]

Vilifying all cops is no more of a constructive solution than flat-out ignoring police brutality.

 

[Schlosser85]

BLM has earned the right to be angry

Im tired of seeing unarmed black people turn up dead at the hands of police day after day week after week

Erik Garner was KILLED ON FILM and nothing happened to the officer who MURDERED HIM

how anyone can not be mad after that is beyond me

But they direct their anger at Pride, or Bernie Sanders, or things that had nothing to do with what they're protesting.

That is why people don't take BLM seriously.

 

[chaseter]

They direct their anger at freeways...

 

[RockSP]

I want BLM supporters to start a township with no police officers and see how that experiment goes.

Yes, because saying cops shouldn't be able to pointlessly harass and/or beat up and/or murder black people and get away with it is the same as saying there shouldn't be any cops at all.

 

[TheCommissioner]

But they direct their anger at Pride, or Bernie Sanders, or things that had nothing to do with what they're protesting.

That is why people don't take BLM seriously.

because these are organizations that preach equality, but really don't mean it

the LGBT community has HUGE issues with equal representation across racial lines

and Bernie Sanders had multiple occasions to speak on racial injustice but kept pivoting back to "the economy" on questions that had ZERO to do with the economy

a full bank account won't stop a police officer from kicking my black ass if he's having a bad day

 

[Kelly]

because these are organizations that preach equality, but really don't mean it

the LGBT community has HUGE issues with equal representation across racial lines

and Bernie Sanders had multiple occasions to speak on racial injustice but kept pivoting back to "the economy" on questions that had ZERO to do with the economy

a full bank account won't stop a police officer from kicking my black ass if he's having a bad day

No one is going to hear you screaming at the top of your lungs with your fingers in your ears.