Discussion: Racism - Part 1

[Thundercrack85]

Well, you're fooling yourself if you think we're on a level playing field.

 

[Mad Ones]

Do all blacks have to scrounge? Because if the color of the skin is the reason for scrounging, then anyone black has to scrounge.

Seems pretty condescending to blacks, if you ask me.

Would you call all the critical race scholars and black writers that have written extensively on the different sets of opportunities available depending on skin colour condescending? Many black people are disavowed from college before they even reach the student loan application.

 

[summerteeth]

If you read their plan that was posted earlier on this page you would see at no point under the reparations section did they ever explicitly say that outright want cold, hard cash. Some of the things outlined under the Reparations sections:

• Open access to free public university and college education
• Open access to K-12, higher education, technical education or educational support to incarcerated individuals
• Student loan forgiveness
• Increased federal funding to HBCU's
• Providing a Universal Basic Income
• Demand a thorough and accurate public education curriculum on Black History, including not only slavery and civil rights, but also contributions of African and African American heritage at the local, national and global level.
• Funding for cultural assets and sacred sites such as Black burial grounds; Black towns (e.g. Mound Bayou, Mississippi);

Those are just a few I picked out and each section goes into how, legislatively, those things could be achieved. No where in that proposal does it state reparations = just giving people money.

Dude, how is a minimum income not just giving people money....seriously interested at how you can spin that one.

 

[SuperT]

Well, you're fooling yourself if you think we're on a level playing field.

People really think we're out here competing on the same level. I really want to live in that world of rainbow, smiles and equality I truly do!

 

[chaseter]

Would you call all the critical race scholars and black writers that have written extensively on the different sets of opportunities available depending on skin colour condescending? Many black people are disavowed from college before they even reach the student loan application.

Do you know what affirmative action is? Blacks are given preferential treatment when applying to colleges.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...affirmative-action-college-admissions-n582981

Even though it's racist.

 

[chaseter]

People really think we're out here competing on the same level. I really want to live in that world of rainbow, smiles and equality I truly do!

Is the NBA a racially even playing field? I never see anyone calling the NBA racist or uneven for whites, Asians, or Hispanics.

 

[Thundercrack85]

There was a time when black people weren't allowed to learn how to read. Let's just say education wasn't exactly encouraged in the Jim Crow era either.

Education is vital to establishing better living conditions.

I realize you want to sweep all that under the rug, but you can't expect people to be enslaved for a century, then be treated as second class citizens for another century, and then magically reach equal status in the course of half a century without some kind of reparations, or special accommodations.

 

[SuperT]

There was a time when black people weren't allowed to learn how to read. Let's just say education wasn't exactly encouraged in the Jim Crow era either.

Education is vital to establishing better living conditions.

I realize you want to sweep all that under the rug, but you can't expect people to be enslaved for a century, then be treated as second class citizens for another century, and then magically reach equal status in the course of half a century without some kind of reparations, or special accommodations.

This has been repeated in this thread a million times and yet people here still can't wrap their heads around this concept. This is why making students take African-American or minority based history classes or racial studies/relations is so important.

 

[chaseter]

Blacks weren't allowed to read more generations ago than fingers you can count on. They've had access to public education the same as everyone else for over half a century. Tell me when it stops? At what generation? I get zero educational preferential treatment but an African American can the same age as me? No. We are all born with the same education...none. We are all afforded a free public education. We all have access to college through loans. Quit making excuses and change your life yourself.

 

[SuperT]

blacks weren't allowed to read more generations ago than fingers you can count on. They've had access to public education the same as everyone else for over half a century. Tell me when it stops? At what generation? I get zero educational preferential treatment but an african american can the same age as me? No. We are all born with the same education...none. We are all afforded a free public education. We all have access to college through loans. Quit making excuses and change your life yourself.

l o l o l o l o l

 

[Thundercrack85]

Blacks weren't allowed to read more generations ago than fingers you can count on. They've had access to public education the same as everyone else for over half a century. Tell me when it stops? At what generation? I get zero educational preferential treatment but an African American can the same age as me? No. We are all born with the same education...none. We are all afforded a free public education. We all have access to college through loans. Quit making excuses and change your life yourself.

How is it the same? Desegregation started in the 1950's, and the courts are still handing down desegregation orders in 2016. Did you sleep through all your history courses? Bussing was still an issue, in Boston, in the late 1980s.

Most minority students (two-thirds) attend predominately minority community schools which have funding well below that of white schools.

New studies show that we are as segregated today as we were in 1968.

 

[chaseter]

l o l o l o l o l

Laugh with your hand out, spending more time counting ways for others to make your life better instead of doing something about it.

 

[chaseter]

How is it the same? Desegregation started in the 1950's, and the courts are still handing down desegregation orders in 2016. Did you sleep through all your history courses? Bussing was still an issue, in Boston, in the late 1980s.

Most minority students (two-thirds) attend predominately minority community schools which have funding well below that of white schools.

New studies show that we are as segregated today as we were in 1968.

That is economical segregation, not social. The poor can't escape no matter what color they are. I'm not saying the educational system here is perfect by any means but we are offered an education nonetheless. What you choose to do with that is up to you. Inner city and rural schools don't have the reputation of being full of eager minds and thus the cycle of poverty continues to the next generation. I'm all for more funding for our public school system. It needs an overhaul period. That affects every single one of us. College is up to you.

 

[Thundercrack85]

That is economical segregation, not social. The poor can't escape no matter what color they are. I'm not saying the educational system here is perfect by any means but we are offered an education nonetheless. What you choose to do with that is up to you. Inner city and rural schools don't have the reputation of being full of eager minds and thus the cycle of poverty continues to the next generation. I'm all for more funding for our public school system. It needs an overhaul period. That affects every single one of us. College is up to you.

Race and socioeconomics are linked. If you are black, you are much more likely to be poor. Probably because your ancestors were poor, and your ancestors' ancestors were slaves (who were never compensated for the work and deliberately not educated).

And that's not even going into the other problems black people face in a society that was until fairly recently not exactly welcoming (housing discrimination, job discrimination, etc). You think that's ancient history? It's not.

You seem to think this can all be fixed in a few decades, with lackluster free public education.

 

[Handsome Rob]

Would you call all the critical race scholars and black writers that have written extensively on the different sets of opportunities available depending on skin colour condescending? Many black people are disavowed from college before they even reach the student loan application.

I didn't say they were being condescending to blacks (although some of them probably are, if any of them use stirring the racial pot as a means to get money/fame a la Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton). I said you were.

Lumping an entire group of people into needing to "scrounge" to get anything based solely on the color of their skin is condescending. It takes away from any of the other factors that contribute to success or that contribute to failure. And, of course, it ignores reality. There are plenty of blacks out there who aren't "scrounging" about. Well, if they are, then I must be in horrendously piss-poor financial conditions . . . if you look at my financials versus Oprah Winfrey's.

If, in fact, things were as you said:

Is the colour of your skin the reason you have to scrounge?

then there should be no successful black people in America. And, yet, there are. Why is that?

 

[Handsome Rob]

Dude, how is a minimum income not just giving people money....seriously interested at how you can spin that one.

And, he's clearly ignorant of the fact that student loan forgiveness often is taxable as income to the person whose balance is forgiven (Pub. 970 of the IRS).

If I say you no longer owe $30k on X loan, then in essence I have given you $30k. If it isn't a loan, it's probably a taxable gift.

But, it doesn't really count as "cold, hard cash." Yeah, it's totally not the same thing.

 

[Angryfantasyfan]

Race and socioeconomics are linked. If you are black, you are much more likely to be poor. Probably because your ancestors were poor, and your ancestors' ancestors were slaves (who were never compensated for the work and deliberately not educated).

And when voices as varied as a proponent of affirmative action and the Cato Institute argue that FDR's New Deal widened the socioeconomic gap between blacks and whites, there's probably something there.

Even though blacks benefited to a degree from many of these programs, Katznelson shows how and why they received far less assistance than whites did. He documents the political process by which powerful Southern Congressional barons shaped the programs in discriminatory ways -- as their price for supporting them. (A black newspaper editorial criticized Roosevelt for excluding from the minimum wage law the black women who worked long hours for $4.50 a week at the resort the president frequented in Warm Springs, Ga.)

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/28/books/review/when-affirmative-action-was-white-uncivil-rights.html

By giving labor unions the monopoly power to exclusively represent employees in a workplace, the Wagner Act had the effect of excluding blacks, since the dominant unions discriminated against blacks. The Wagner Act had originally been drafted with a provision prohibiting racial discrimination. But the American Federation of Labor successfully lobbied against it, and it was dropped. AFL unions used their new power, granted by the Wagner Act, to exclude blacks on a large scale. Booker T. Washington, W.E.B. DuBois, and Marcus Garvey were all critical of compulsory unionism. http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/why-did-fdrs-new-deal-harm-blacks

But Katznelson demonstrates that African-American veterans received significantly less help from the G.I. Bill than their white counterparts. "Written under Southern auspices," he reports, "the law was deliberately designed to accommodate Jim Crow." He cites one 1940's study that concluded it was "as though the G.I. Bill had been earmarked 'For White Veterans Only.' " Southern Congressional leaders made certain that the programs were directed not by Washington but by local white officials, businessmen, bankers and college administrators who would honor past practices. As a result, thousands of black veterans in the South -- and the North as well -- were denied housing and business loans, as well as admission to whites-only colleges and universities. They were also excluded from job-training programs for careers in promising new fields like radio and electrical work, commercial photography and mechanics. Instead, most African-Americans were channeled toward traditional, low-paying "black jobs" and small black colleges, which were pitifully underfinanced and ill equipped to meet the needs of a surging enrollment of returning soldiers.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/28/books/review/when-affirmative-action-was-white-uncivil-rights.html

 

[summerteeth]

There was a time when black people weren't allowed to learn how to read. Let's just say education wasn't exactly encouraged in the Jim Crow era either.

Education is vital to establishing better living conditions.

I realize you want to sweep all that under the rug, but you can't expect people to be enslaved for a century, then be treated as second class citizens for another century, and then magically reach equal status in the course of half a century without some kind of reparations, or special accommodations.

I don't want to make it sound like there aren't things that need to be done. There's a lot of work to do to improve k-12 education for African Americans in low income neighborhoods and the justice system etc. I would like to find a way to increase small business ownership among African Americans. That being said, I just don't buy this argument you just made because in a half a century a lot of immigrants are able to reach the middle class and upper middle class. People who don't even speak English when entering or as their first language, people who aren't white...and they did that without some kind of reparations or special accommodations.

http://abcnews.go.com/ABC_Univision/Politics/success-generation-immigrants/story?id=18501089

"[W]hile large gaps remain between groups," read the report, "it is also the case that within each group, the second generation is doing better than the first on most key measures of economic success."

 

[SuperT]

then there should be no successful black people in America. And, yet, there are. Why is that?

We are successful in spite of what America continues to throw at us, not because of anything they've done to help us out. If you think African-Americans, or any other minority, don't have to work 10x harder to get even half the recognition or reward as white Americans, well I have a bridge to sell to you.

 

[summerteeth]

We are successful in spite of what America continues to throw at us, not because of anything they've done to help us out. If you think African-Americans, or any other minority, don't have to work 10x harder to get even half the recognition or reward as white Americans, well I have a bridge to sell to you.

Conversely you could say that people are successful because of what America offers as well. There are things we still need to address, but America provides a lot of opportunity for everyone.

 

[terry78]

Most white collar jobs that aren't like diversity owned are more of a white guys club (and occasional Asian guy). Silicon Valley is pretty monochrome. There are a few guys out there, like the dude that created Moviepass is black.

 

[Handsome Rob]

We are successful in spite of what America continues to throw at us, not because of anything they've done to help us out. If you think African-Americans, or any other minority, don't have to work 10x harder to get even half the recognition or reward as white Americans, well I have a bridge to sell to you.

Once again, you are narrowly focused on racism as the barrier to success. There is no doubt in my mind that slavery and racism in this country have had a negative impact on blacks. But, they are not the only group to have suffered in one form or another, nor or they the only ones who have to work harder than others.

1. If you were unfortunate enough to attend an academically lousy high school, you're going to have a harder time attending college than someone who went to a high school that was academically strong.

2. If you are a little person, you are going to have a harder time functioning and being successful in society than someone of average height.

3. If you are of average IQ, you're probably going to have to work harder to achieve the same level of academic success as someone with a genius-level IQ.

4. If you are an immigrant with little-to-no grasp of English, you are going to have a harder time functioning and being successful than an immigrant from an English-speaking country.

Why are blacks singled out as deserving special treatment (reparations, in this instance) over these other groups? After all, society is stacked against these other groups, as well, for reasons beyond their control.

But, back to these specific "reparations" examples:

Let's say we make college "free." How does that benefit the blacks who don't want a career that requires a 4-year diploma? Should they sacrifice those years of earning-and-experience potential just because they can have free college? Or, what about blacks on the lower end of the intelligence scale who won't be able to make it through college--will automatic passing grades be part of the "free college" experience?

Or, loan forgiveness. What about the blacks who have already been through college and paid off their loans--do we give them a lump sum amount of money so they can be equal to the ones who were forgiven their loan balances? And, while we're at it, what about those blacks that choose not to go to college--will they get a payment equal to what they would have paid for college? After all, if X college is free for Black Man A, he's getting X dollars in benefits--shouldn't Black Man B get those same dollars in benefits if he chooses to forego college?

If all blacks are entitled to reparations, then lump sum payments are really the only way to go--any of these other side programs will benefit some blacks while excluding others . . . which is discriminatory in and of itself, come to think of it. But then, that's basically "cold, hard cash" . . .

 

[Kelly]

Once again, you are narrowly focused on racism as the barrier to success. There is no doubt in my mind that slavery and racism in this country have had a negative impact on blacks. But, they are not the only group to have suffered in one form or another, nor or they the only ones who have to work harder than others.

1. If you were unfortunate enough to attend an academically lousy high school, you're going to have a harder time attending college than someone who went to a high school that was academically strong.

2. If you are a little person, you are going to have a harder time functioning and being successful in society than someone of average height.

3. If you are of average IQ, you're probably going to have to work harder to achieve the same level of academic success as someone with a genius-level IQ.

4. If you are an immigrant with little-to-no grasp of English, you are going to have a harder time functioning and being successful than an immigrant from an English-speaking country.

Why are blacks singled out as deserving special treatment (reparations, in this instance) over these other groups? After all, society is stacked against these other groups, as well, for reasons beyond their control.

But, back to these specific "reparations" examples:

Let's say we make college "free." How does that benefit the blacks who don't want a career that requires a 4-year diploma? Should they sacrifice those years of earning-and-experience potential just because they can have free college? Or, what about blacks on the lower end of the intelligence scale who won't be able to make it through college--will automatic passing grades be part of the "free college" experience?

Or, loan forgiveness. What about the blacks who have already been through college and paid off their loans--do we give them a lump sum amount of money so they can be equal to the ones who were forgiven their loan balances? And, while we're at it, what about those blacks that choose not to go to college--will they get a payment equal to what they would have paid for college? After all, if X college is free for Black Man A, he's getting X dollars in benefits--shouldn't Black Man B get those same dollars in benefits if he chooses to forego college?

If all blacks are entitled to reparations, then lump sum payments are really the only way to go--any of these other side programs will benefit some blacks while excluding others . . . which is discriminatory in and of itself, come to think of it. But then, that's basically "cold, hard cash" . . .

What about those blacks that live in the North East where cost of living is higher....that lump sum won't mean as much to them as someone who lives in Texas with a lower standard of living.

 

[SuperT]

Most white collar jobs that aren't like diversity owned are more of a white guys club (and occasional Asian guy). Silicon Valley is pretty monochrome. There are a few guys out there, like the dude that created Moviepass is black.

Yep. I live here in Minneapolis and there are tons of company headquarters here with awesome white collar jobs but man when you walk into these corporate offices, it's absolutely pathetic - I use to work for one (General Mills). Most of the roles where they have minorities are - you guessed it - Diversity & Inclusion teams. There's nothing wrong with that, you need to have minorities on those team but come on, we need to have visibility everywhere.

It's definitely a white guys (and girls) club up here and it's extremely off-putting.

 

[summerteeth]

Most white collar jobs that aren't like diversity owned are more of a white guys club (and occasional Asian guy). Silicon Valley is pretty monochrome. There are a few guys out there, like the dude that created Moviepass is black.

Well unfortunately, not a lot of African Americans study computer programming. Only 6% of computer programing majors in Stanford were African American. Probably not getting a good eneough foundation in math and sciences in k-12.