Discussion: Racism - Part 1

[SuperT]

Well unfortunately, not a lot of African Americans study computer programming. Only 6% of computer programing majors in Stanford were African American. Probably not getting a good eneough foundation in math and sciences in k-12.

It's not just about getting a good enough foundation in math and science, visibility matters. If you don't see people like you in a certain role, industry or specific company - that's huge, especially for younger generations.

 

[Kelly]

It's not just about getting a good enough foundation in math and science, visibility matters. If you don't see people like you in a certain role, industry or specific company - that's huge, especially for younger generations.

I think that gets us into a debate over which came first the chicken or the egg.

So how do you get people into those positions that are relevant to them?

 

[Kelly]

I do an activity in my classroom that is always interesting to watch unfold.

I put the word "Muslim" on the board and I cover it, and I put the word "Christian" on the board and cover.

I then ask my students to write down the very first thing that pops into their head when I uncover the word and they see it for the first time. It never fails, most of the things that pop into their heads about the word "Muslim" are negative, and the word "Christian" are positive and we talk about media, their perception, etc.....

One year, two girls, both sitting at opposite ends of the classroom gave the same answer when asked to write down the first thing that pops into their head. For the word "Christian" they both said "white man"....I asked if they went to church.....they both said yes, I asked if it was predominantly a black church, they said yes....I asked them if they were Christians, they both said yes.... (one little girl had a light bulb go off in her head, I saw it in her eyes), then I asked what the race of their pastor was....they both said he was black. AND THEN it was like light bulbs were flashing all around them.

They both were amazed at the revelation....

 

[terry78]

Same thing they did with those Barbie doll tests back in the day. Like they'd do focus groups with little minority girls and be like, "which doll is the pretty one?"

 

[terry78]

And I do have a nephew that plays ball and is probably getting a scholarship but he says he only wants to use athletics as a stepping stone to possibly owning a team down the line, so I like that he subverts the typical mindset.

 

[SuperT]

And I do have a nephew that plays ball and is probably getting a scholarship but he says he only wants to use athletics as a stepping stone to possibly owning a team down the line, so I like that he subverts the typical mindset.

Same thing with my little brother.

 

[Kelly]

And I do have a nephew that plays ball and is probably getting a scholarship but he says he only wants to use athletics as a stepping stone to possibly owning a team down the line, so I like that he subverts the typical mindset.

Same thing with my little brother.

I like that thinking....

 

[TheCommissioner]

Black firefighter in Upstate NY has house burned down after receiving messages to resign

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...er-home-burns-racist-threat-article-1.2737595

No one was hurt in the blaze, but Walker is still mourning his two cats’ death in the fire.

The racist letter used the N-word throughout several times, hatefully telling Walker that “n-----s are not allowed to be firefighters. No one wants you in this city,” WGRZ reported.

The family said they lost everything in the fire, the station reported.

Despite the anonymous racist threat and losing his home, Walker said he wouldn’t give in to the hateful demands.

 

[terry78]

Ahhh, New York. That hotbed of racial tolerance.

 

[TheComicbookKid]

That is economical segregation, not social. The poor can't escape no matter what color they are. I'm not saying the educational system here is perfect by any means but we are offered an education nonetheless. What you choose to do with that is up to you. Inner city and rural schools don't have the reputation of being full of eager minds and thus the cycle of poverty continues to the next generation. I'm all for more funding for our public school system. It needs an overhaul period. That affects every single one of us. College is up to you.

Not really. Even when you are willing, the facts of poverty can force you out of opportunities. I remember how hard it was to get an internship in my city even though my college offered many because of the fact the bus system in the poorly served area was unreliable and I didn't have a car so I missed out on opportunities to pad my resume leaving school.

Plus I was broke.

 

[Thundercrack85]

The point remains, you can't have a people go through a century of slavery, and then another century of quasi-slavery / second class citizenship, and expect them to reach equal status over the course of 30-40 years because they get free education. Especially when that free education is demonstrably inferior to that of their white peers.

I mean, really, considering how little has been done to mitigate the after effects of two centuries of slavery and Jim Crow, black Americans are doing fairly well in American society.

 

[summerteeth]

The point remains, you can't have a people go through a century of slavery, and then another century of quasi-slavery / second class citizenship, and expect them to reach equal status over the course of 30-40 years because they get free education. Especially when that free education is demonstrably inferior to that of their white peers.

.

Does that point stand? Because I think immigrants disprove that all the time. Within a generation (30-40 years) many are able to enter the middle class. I mean, these are people whose first language isn't English most of the time.

I agree though that the education is terrible in many predominately black public schools. That's something that needs to be fixed.

 

[summerteeth]

It's not just about getting a good enough foundation in math and science, visibility matters. If you don't see people like you in a certain role, industry or specific company - that's huge, especially for younger generations.

Yes, visibility matters, but foundation comes first, you can't just hire people that didn't major in that area or have no experience in that field. I would like to see Silicon Valley create more initiatives to promote math and science in inner city schools. I know that many colleges have student loan programs form POC to major in STEM especially women.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Does that point stand? Because I think immigrants disprove that all the time. Within a generation (30-40 years) many are able to enter the middle class. I mean, these are people whose first language isn't English most of the time.

I agree though that the education is terrible in many predominately black public schools. That's something that needs to be fixed.

I disagree. You're talking apples and oranges.

Take Jews coming from the Russian Empire in the 1800s for example. Fairly large group of immigrants. They may have come over with nothing but a suitcase, but their families have probably had formal education for centuries, with some of the highest literacy rates in the world. Back home they were part of an established society, with culture, laws, their own courts, etc. They've had well organized family structures probably going back to Biblical times.

Or take the Irish, a huge group of immigrants. Most of them were dirt poor. But again, almost all have had some compulsory education. You have a society that has been around for a thousand years, with established family structures, and even political organizations active around the world. Not to mention, an extremely high proficiency in English.

Now, Asian and Hispanic immigrants had it harder, due to racism, and the language barrier. But again, you do in most cases have a history of education, well established family structure, etc. Not to say that it was exactly smooth sailing for the Japanese for example.

It's really the centuries of education, the accumulation of capital, culture and knowledge that make the biggest difference.

Most African Americans had none of that. They were robbed of all of it.

 

[summerteeth]

I disagree. You're talking apples and oranges.

Take Jews coming from the Russian Empire in the 1800s for example. Fairly large group of immigrants. They may have come over with nothing but a suitcase, but their families have probably had formal education for centuries, with a 90% literacy rate (granted, this is unusually high for most immigrant groups). Back home they were part of an established society, with culture, laws, their own courts, etc. They've had well organized family structures probably going back to Biblical times.

Or take the Irish, a huge group of immigrants. Most of them were dirt poor. But again, almost all have had some compulsory education. You have a society that has been around for a thousand years, with established family structures, and even political organizations active around the world. Not to mention, an extremely high proficiency in English.

Now, Asian and Hispanic immigrants had it harder, due to racism, and the language barrier. But again, you do in most cases have a history of education, well established family structure, etc.

It's really the centuries of education, the accumulation of capital, culture and knowledge that make the biggest difference.

Most African Americans had none of that. They were robbed of all of it.

I'm not talking about immigration in the 1800s early 1900's. I'm referring to Asian and Hispanic immigrants in the past 30-40 years.

Centuries of education, accumulation of capital....or the ability to speak English...yeah that's not happening with most people immigrating from Mexico and other Latin American countries... that's why I'm saying that immigration disproves what you are saying. Maybe you don't quite realize how poor these people are when they come here and where they start from and how much second generation Hispanics overcome on a regular basis.

Here's an article talking about it:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...icans_are_the_most_successful_immigrants.html

And I know from my family's history how poor they were when my grandparents first came here. How my dad, aunts, and uncles grew up poor. How my grandparents didn't value education because they valued hard work and because they never had access to education past elementary. I don't know how many times when I was in college when he asked me how I was doing. I would start talking about my classes and he would wave that off and be like, well are you working? I would just say yeah at Starbucks...but... and he would just say good as long as you are working. My dad was the first in our family to graduate from college, I was the second.

Mexican-Americans, Lee says, are starting from behind home plate. “In the sense that they come [to the U.S.] much more poorly educated than the average American, they have a lot more catching up to do just to get to where the average American is. For Mexican-Americans, the fact that their children make it to first or second base is enormous progress

 

[Thundercrack85]

And immigrants from less developed countries are doing demonstrably worse than immigrants from more developed countries. They're doing better than African Americans though. Even with poor countries like Mexico, you have a huge advantage. I assume your great grandparents weren't routinely sold off, or deliberately kept illiterate.

What I mean to say is, in terms of the game being rigged against them, Hispanics and Asians had it bad. Blacks had it worse.

You have to extrapolate this stuff from the moment of emancipation. 1865. Most African Americans were uneducated, had little, or no family structures (there's some great books about how black families tried to reunite in the years of the Civil War and after).

Most states they live in want to keep them poor, uneducated, and powerless. Until the 1970s, they did that outright.

 

[summerteeth]

And immigrants from less developed countries are doing demonstrably worse than immigrants from more developed countries. They're doing better than African Americans though. Even with poor countries like Mexico, you have a huge advantage. I assume your great grandparents weren't routinely sold off, or deliberately kept illiterate.

What I mean to say is, in terms of the game being rigged against them, Hispanics and Asians had it bad. Blacks had it worse.

You have to extrapolate this stuff from the moment of emancipation. 1865. Most African Americans were uneducated, had little, or no family structures (there's some great books about how black families tried to reunite in the years of the Civil War and after).

Most states they live in want to keep them poor, uneducated, and powerless. Until the 1970s, they did that outright.

My great grandfather was decapitated by the Mexican government during the Cristero War and my grandfather was forced to watch...but that's neither here nor there. I don't see how someone born to immigrants from Mexico within the last 30-40 years is in a better situation than African Americans, that's a real tough sell. The fact that English isn't your primary language is a tremendous obstacle to overcome along with the extreme poverty, the fact that you have to form a new community in a new country.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Again, the accumulation of knowledge, culture, and security over the course of centuries.

I remember one recent study that actually showed that Brits today with Norman names are still wealthier than those with Celtic, Anglo or Saxon names. The Norman conquest was in 1066.

Though in America you also have the obvious issue of institutional racism, which has targeted African Americans much more systematically and harsher than any other group. You can still see it in a lot of laws today.

 

[summerteeth]

Again, the accumulation of knowledge, culture, and security over the course of centuries.

I remember one recent study that actually showed that Brits today with Norman names are still wealthier than those with Celtic, Anglo or Saxon names. The Norman conquest was in 1066.

England has a long history of classism though and lack of social mobility that's only changed rather recently. It's much more embedded in their society. That's apples and oranges.

 

[Thundercrack85]

A lot of blacks would say that about America. And they would be right.

 

[summerteeth]

A lot of blacks would say that about America. And they would be right.

You are trying to compare a rigid class system that existed from for over 900 years of course their is going to be wealth accumulation over nearly a Millenia. In a way though you are undoing your own argument. If the idea is the longer you have been somewhere and the more education you have the better off future generations will be. Given that immigrants have been here for less time, accumulated less wealth, and come here with a lower level of education and not speaking the language yet are able to see social mobility.

My argument is in favor of trying to find ways to increase opportunity and increase social mobility. That being said there is absolutely no way I'm for reparations. You want my tax money to go towards reparations when my family wasn't even here until the 70's....how is that justifiable?

 

[Thundercrack85]

You are trying to compare a rigid class system that existed from for over 900 years of course their is going to be wealth accumulation over nearly a Millenia. In a way though you are undoing your own argument. If the idea is the longer you have been somewhere and the more education you have the better off future generations will be. Given that immigrants have been here for less time, accumulated less wealth, and come here with a lower level of education and not speaking the language yet are able to see social mobility.

It takes a few years to learn English. A few months if you're young (I did, although obviously my vocabulary improved).

Again, they take intangible advantages with them. Culture, history, family, and education accumulated over unbroken generations of family. You seem to be fundamentally not getting that. Or disagreeing with it.

Black Americans started without that, and then had to deal with a very hostile system. A system which remains in many ways disposed against them.

Obviously they've made progress, but it's not hard to see why there remains such a gap. Time certainly helps. And I think the condition of minorities in America will continue to improve. But there is a fundamental disparity that was never addressed.

I can say as a white European who came to America I have had it a lot easier than most black Americans. Or indeed Hispanics. I have yet to be pulled over by police without reasonable cause. I'm not Anglo-Saxon, but almost close enough to have everything work in my benefit, in a society designed for Anglo-Saxon Americans.

My argument is in favor of trying to find ways to increase opportunity and increase social mobility. That being said there is absolutely no way I'm for reparations. You want my tax money to go towards reparations when my family wasn't even here until the 70's....how is that justifiable?

The United States as a nation exploited a group of people for the benefit of a nation. The descendants of those exploited people have had a disadvantage in society ever since. If you claim to be part of that nation (which I assume you do), you are a beneficiary of that labor / exploitation.

 

[summerteeth]

Again, they take intangible advantages with them. Culture, history, family, and education accumulated over unbroken generations of family. You seem to be fundamentally not getting that. Or disagreeing with it.


The United States as a nation exploited a group of people for the benefit of a nation. The descendants of those exploited people have had a disadvantage in society ever since. If you claim to be part of that nation (which I assume you do), you are a beneficiary of that labor / exploitation.

I disagree that African Americans don't have a strong culture, history, or that they don't have families. Your argument about education though makes absolutely no sense, since African Americans today are coming from families with higher education attainment than second generation Latinos.

I also fundamentally disagree, every new generation has a chance to build on the successes of the previous generation as seen through the immigrant experience.

How am I a beneficiary of that labor by the way?

 

[Thundercrack85]

I disagree that African Americans don't have a strong culture, history, or that they don't have families. Your argument about education though makes absolutely no sense, since African Americans today are coming from families with higher education attainment than second generation Latinos.

How am I a beneficiary of that labor by the way?

I meant in the past. That put them at a disadvantage. A disadvantage most other groups do not have.

Though I am confused. Are you asking why blacks are doing worse than Latinos socioeconomically, or why Latinos are doing worse than blacks in education? Because I think the evidence would point towards more discrimination against blacks in other areas than education. Though neither side is exactly doing great.

This country was built largely on slave labor. You are a beneficiary of the country.

 

[summerteeth]

I meant in the past. That put them at a disadvantage. A disadvantage most other groups do not have.

Though I am confused. Are you asking why blacks are doing worse than Latinos socioeconomically, or why Latinos are doing worse than blacks in education? Because I think the evidence would point towards more discrimination against blacks in other areas than education. Though neither side is exactly doing great.

This country was built largely on slave labor. You are a beneficiary of the country.

I don't see how it creates a disadvantage if you are born into a group with a defined culture. What difference does it make if the culture was not as defined 30 years before you were born, you were not around then.

Yes, specifically second or third generation Latinos. Median household income of US born Hispanics is $47,000 compared to Foreign born Hispanics $39,000. Black median household income is around $35,000.

I think the evidence would point towards more discrimination against blacks in other areas than education.

This is where we agree and this is what we need to fix, reparations are not necessary. As you can see if you can decrease discriminatory policies an you can see huge gains within a time of a generation as seen through the immigrant experience.