Discussion: Racism - Part 2

[DeadPresident]

The residential school system officially ended in the 90s and while that program was in existence, Natives had fewer rights, the government had the right to take native children away from their parents. The government did this to make the children "fit in" with white society and as you can guess, there was massive abuse by the teachers towards their students, both physically and sexually. Some of the schools had a 50% morality rate and really the goal of the residential school system was to destroy the Natives' culture.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_school_system

The government even experimented on these children in the 40s and 50s:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thund...ments-explained-to-kenora-survivors-1.3171557

And you could say, but the last school closed in the 90s, that means that things are great for the natives now right? Nope:

http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/out-of-sight-out-of-mind-2/

The Natives often live on reserves with 3rd world conditions, do have the same health care access and often get harnessed by the police. Just because something as nightmarish as the residential school system no longer exists, doesn't mean racism against Natives didn't take more subtle, but still dangerous forms.

Also you can't undo the damage the resident school system created within a mere 20 years, that system existed from the 1870s to the 1990s and ruined the lives of several generations of Natives. You can't just expect Natives to "get past" that level of abuse that existed for that long, that wound will take a lot longer to heal.

If its trendy and leftist be appalled by how Canada has treated its Natives, then I am happy to take those labels.

Saying Canada is less racist then dictatorships in the ME is a meaningless race to the bottom, almost every country has problems with racism and being less racist then some other country, while still having massive problems with racism, is nothing to be proud of. Everyone should be less smug and take care of racism at home, before we start thinking we are better then everyone else in this regard.

Okay, so that's a "no" on current policies? Nowhere did I suggest it undoes past transgressions or racist policies, and I'd encourage whatever initiatives necessary for everyone to have an equality in terms of opportunities and living standards.

You also seem to be suffering from this belief that if you shout about imperfections enough they'll disappear. If you complain and identify the problem in racist policies that have left lasting damage then also suggest which policies you think will fix the situation. Many (particularly out of touch lamenters like hellified) don't actually want a solution or a completion of redress, they'd rather receive some poor excuse for compensation and eternally blame racism for the state of their lives. My question in this topic, time and agin, is for people to articulate their solutions to the social problems they see.

And comparison is useful in these cases because it contextualizes the severity. Perfect doesn't exist right now, and that seems to lead people to complain about the best there is just because it isn't their utopia.

 

[The Overlord]

Okay, so that's a "no" on current policies? Nowhere did I suggest it undoes past transgressions or racist policies, and I'd encourage whatever initiatives necessary for everyone to have an equality in terms of opportunities and living standards.

You also seem to be suffering from this belief that if you shout about imperfections enough they'll disappear. If you complain and identify the problem in racist policies that have left lasting damage then also suggest which policies you think will fix the situation. Many (particularly out of touch lamenters like hellified) don't actually want a solution or a completion of redress, they'd rather receive some poor excuse for compensation and eternally blame racism for the state of their lives. My question in this topic, time and agin, is for people to articulate their solutions to the social problems they see.

And comparison is useful in these cases because it contextualizes the severity. Perfect doesn't exist right now, and that seems to lead people to complain about the best there is just because it isn't their utopia.

There is a huge middle ground between a utopia and how Canada treats it's Native people. Saying nothing is perfect is a poor excuse to allowing Native reserves to become third world countries.

Are there current policies as screwed up as the residential school system (which ended not too long ago), still on the books? No.

But there are still lots problems with discrimination towards Natives, just because it's not official policy doesn't mean it does not happen and has real effects. If Native Canadians are over represented in the prison population and do not get the same level of health care other Canadians, that is a problem, we cannot just ignore it.

I think some Canadians like to pat themselves on on the back on how " not racist" Canada is, they end up ignoring the plight of the Native Canadians and just saying they are better in Canada then a ME dictatorship does not make their lives better.

There are no easy answers on how to deal with discrimination against Natives and improve their lives. I cannot suggest a policy that magically fixes this problem because its huge. People who had their lives ruined by the residential school system will not magically get better, those scars last for life.

The harm of the past informs the present and frankly I do not think there is a whole lot of political will to come up with a real solution, the government just talks about trying to address this problem, they throw little money at the reverses and nothing substantial happens. The government ignores Native treaties whenever it feels like it, that is a huge problem, not guaranteeing treaty rights.

I love aspects of Canada, but our treatment of Natives has always been appalling.

 

[DeadPresident]

Are there current policies as screwed up as the residential school system (which ended not too long ago), still on the books? No.

But there are still lots problems with discrimination towards Natives, just because it's not official policy doesn't mean it does not happen and has real effects. If Native Canadians are over represented in the prison population and do not get the same level of health care other Canadians, that is a problem, we cannot just ignore it.

Okay, here's the easy part, I agree with you completely. If there's a discrepancy it should be solved. Here's the difficult part; what causes the discrepancy? And if we've correctly identified the cause, how do we solve it? The leftist knee-jerk reaction to all social ills is that discrimination causes differences, without having proof. If someone shows me proof, I'll agree. In the USA when they talk about the difference between black Americans' earnings and white Americans' the pop-left establish that the difference can only be as a result of discrimination, but they can't show persuasive evidence of it. How do we combat what can't be identified, if it is in fact the reason for the difference?

And another question, is there any way in which the Native Canadians contribute to the environment they find themselves in, or are they merely innocent bystanders with no control over their own lives?

I think some Canadians like to pat themselves on on the back on how " not racist" Canada is, they end up ignoring the plight of the Native Canadians and just saying they are better in Canada then a ME dictatorship does not make their lives better.

There are no easy answers on how to deal with discrimination against Natives and improve their lives. The harm of the past informs the present and frankly I do not think there is a whole lot of political will to come up with a real solution, the government just talks about trying to address this problem, they throw little money at the reverses and nothing substantial happens. The government ignores Native treaties whenever it feels like it, that is a huge problem, not guaranteeing treaty rights.

I love aspects of Canada, but our treatment of Natives has always been appalling.

So then you're saying that rather than overt social racism being the reason why problems continue is that political tools aren't being used to solve the problem? If that's the case then you and people who think like you should get together and propose solutions to government. If they would ignore that then maybe it's time for Canadians to realize that social racism may not be why Native Canadians are still disenfranchised in certain ways, but perhaps government doesn't care enough?

 

[hellified]

its a catch 22 to ask what policies can be enacted to fix the situation when any policies enacted will only engender more resentment particularly from the group responsible for the reason the policies are enacted in the first place. People like dead pres and chaseter complain ad nauseum about affirmative action for example and that was policy created to offset the discrimination and exclusion minorities suffered for over 100 years in this US.

So lets be honest and at least admit there is no set of policies thats going to be accepted. Hell they refuse to believe that race discrimination is a factor in employment and wages so what could anyone suggest policy wise as a fix for that?

 

[Donner]

Okay, here's the easy part, I agree with you completely. If there's a discrepancy it should be solved. Here's the difficult part; what causes the discrepancy? And if we've correctly identified the cause, how do we solve it? The leftist knee-jerk reaction to all social ills is that discrimination causes differences, without having proof. If someone shows me proof, I'll agree. In the USA when they talk about the difference between black Americans' earnings and white Americans' the pop-left establish that the difference can only be as a result of discrimination, but they can't show persuasive evidence of it. How do we combat what can't be identified, if it is in fact the reason for the difference?

And another question, is there any way in which the Native Canadians contribute to the environment they find themselves in, or are they merely innocent bystanders with no control over their own lives?



So then you're saying that rather than overt social racism being the reason why problems continue is that political tools aren't being used to solve the problem? If that's the case then you and people who think like you should get together and propose solutions to government. If they would ignore that then maybe it's time for Canadians to realize that social racism may not be why Native Canadians are still disenfranchised in certain ways, but perhaps government doesn't care enough?

Oh, the government cares. They throw money at the Natives, which doesn't help at all. Especially because the chiefs of the bands get the money and instead of distributing it to their people, they buy themselves fancy houses. The chiefs are one of the biggest problems that the Natives have. They're corrupt as **** and fight tooth and nail against being audited and general transparency.

Also, the reserves that the Natives live on are horrendous. Alcohol and substance abuse is rampant, as well as sexual abuse. You would be hard pressed to find a women who lives on a reserve (or has lived on a reserve) who hasn't been abused or molested. It's a vicious cycle and no one seems to want to do anything about it, least of all the people on the reserves. It's interesting when you have a city or town that is right next to a reserve. You know when you've crossed the line into the reserve because the houses are falling apart, the lawns are out of control, rusted trucks are parked next to the house, and dogs run around.

The problem, as I see it, is that the government throws money at the people and then leaves it at that. But then it becomes an issue of whether or not "the white man" should be going to the reserves and trying to break their cycles of abuse. Whose responsibility is it? I don't know. But you can't help people who don't want to help themselves and the first thing they should do is demand more transparency from their band chiefs.

 

[DeadPresident]

its a catch 22 to ask what policies can be enacted to fix the situation when any policies enacted will only engender more resentment particularly from the group responsible for the reason the policies are enacted in the first place. People like dead pres and chaseter complain ad nauseum about affirmative action for example and that was policy created to offset the discrimination and exclusion minorities suffered for over 100 years in this US.

So lets be honest and at least admit there is no set of policies thats going to be accepted. Hell they refuse to believe that race discrimination is a factor in employment and wages so what could anyone suggest policy wise as a fix for that?

Surprise surprise, your first resort is to argue that the problem can't be solved. So not only do you incessantly complain about the specific cause of the problem, you also claim it can't be solved. That relegates the people you claim to care about to being eternal victims, that sounds fantastic.

"There's no set of policies that's going to be accepted"…Self-righteous defeatism…that's a new one for me.

 

[DeadPresident]

Oh, the government cares. They throw money at the Natives, which doesn't help at all. Especially because the chiefs of the bands get the money and instead of distributing it to their people, they buy themselves fancy houses. The chiefs are one of the biggest problems that the Natives have. They're corrupt as **** and fight tooth and nail against being audited and general transparency.

Also, the reserves that the Natives live on are horrendous. Alcohol and substance abuse is rampant, as well as sexual abuse. You would be hard pressed to find a women who lives on a reserve (or has lived on a reserve) who hasn't been abused or molested. It's a vicious cycle and no one seems to want to do anything about it, least of all the people on the reserves. It's interesting when you have a city or town that is right next to a reserve. You know when you've crossed the line into the reserve because the houses are falling apart, the lawns are out of control, rusted trucks are parked next to the house, and dogs run around.

The problem, as I see it, is that the government throws money at the people and then leaves it at that. But then it becomes an issue of whether or not "the white man" should be going to the reserves and trying to break their cycles of abuse. Whose responsibility is it? I don't know. But you can't help people who don't want to help themselves and the first thing they should do is demand more transparency from their band chiefs.

So what I take away from your post is that the Native Canadians are not being taken care of by their own leaders who represent them? Which ties into what I said to Overlord, if we've identified the variables that keep these communities down - how does one solve them? How does one, from the outside, stop the cycle of abuse that you mentioned?

The simple but harsh answer is that at some level a desire from inside that community to improve and come out of the bad circumstances has to exist before it will happen. No amount of bleeding hearts or posts on forums will get a tribal chief to care about his community if he honestly doesn't give a ****. What more should the government do? I'd say spending the money on actual infrastructure that would help the community is better than just giving actual cash to people who may or may not use it correctly.

 

[The Overlord]

Okay, here's the easy part, I agree with you completely. If there's a discrepancy it should be solved. Here's the difficult part; what causes the discrepancy? And if we've correctly identified the cause, how do we solve it? The leftist knee-jerk reaction to all social ills is that discrimination causes differences, without having proof. If someone shows me proof, I'll agree. In the USA when they talk about the difference between black Americans' earnings and white Americans' the pop-left establish that the difference can only be as a result of discrimination, but they can't show persuasive evidence of it. How do we combat what can't be identified, if it is in fact the reason for the difference?

Discrimination is a big part of it.

Native Canadians could not vote till 1960 and programs like residential schools actively did disenfranchise them.

I think because of disfranchisement and scars of programs like residential schools, we see higher substance abuse on Native reserves. You can argue that they should not be abusing substances, but if there are no jobs on the reserves and you have residential school survivors suffering from PTSD, what you think will happen? This is part of human nature, put people in hopeless situations and they will give up hope.

And another question, is there any way in which the Native Canadians contribute to the environment they find themselves in, or are they merely innocent bystanders with no control over their own lives?

Reserves are run by band councils and some of the band councils have not been at very good at governing. Bad band councils deserve their share of the blame. I think there is a lot of failures on several different levels government towards the Native Canadians, both in terms of the Canadian government and band councils.

But the whole reservation system was imposed on the natives, by the British and later the Canadians.

We signed treaties we did not honour and with Native tribes that did not sign treaties, we just took their land and put them on reverses, whether they liked it or not.

So do the Natives bear some responsibility for their situation, yes, some, but that doesn't change the fact they have been living on system imposed upon them and have been historically disfranchised.

We put them in a bad spot and told them to make the best of it. Yes, there is personal responsibility, but you can't ignore other circumstances in situations like these.

So then you're saying that rather than overt social racism being the reason why problems continue is that political tools aren't being used to solve the problem? If that's the case then you and people who think like you should get together and propose solutions to government. If they would ignore that then maybe it's time for Canadians to realize that social racism may not be why Native Canadians are still disenfranchised in certain ways, but perhaps government doesn't care enough?

To be honest, I do not think government really wants to find a solution and would rather throw money at a broken system and just sweep the whole thing from their minds, doing something else would require hard work on their part and actually honouring some of the treaties we signed.

And like I said there is no quick and easy solution to this, this a problem that exists for centuries and really just come with a magic solution that will fix

If I had a solution, I would talking be talking to the government about it, rather then posting it here.

My point is, racism exists in every society, no society has the moral high ground to gloat over being free of racism and every society should examine their own problems before being judgmental towards others.

 

[Donner]

So what I take away from your post is that the Native Canadians are not being taken care of by their own leaders who represent them? Which ties into what I said to Overlord, if we've identified the variables that keep these communities down - how does one solve them? How does one, from the outside, stop the cycle of abuse that you mentioned?

The simple but harsh answer is that at some level a desire from inside that community to improve and come out of the bad circumstances has to exist before it will happen. No amount of bleeding hearts or posts on forums will get a tribal chief to care about his community if he honestly doesn't give a ****. What more should the government do? I'd say spending the money on actual infrastructure that would help the community is better than just giving actual cash to people who may or may not use it correctly.

It's a lose lose because of the attitudes of taxpayers towards Natives, the attitudes of Natives towards the white man, and the attitude of the government trying to help, but not really knowing how and meeting resistance at every corner.

 

[DeadPresident]

Discrimination is a big part of it.

Native Canadians could not vote till 1960 and programs like residential schools actively did disenfranchise them.

I think because of disfranchisement and scars of programs like residential schools, we see higher substance abuse on Native reserves. You can argue that they should not be abusing substances, but if there are no jobs on the reserves and you have residential school survivors suffering from PTSD, what you think will happen? This is part of human nature, put people in hopeless situations and they will give up hope.

So then it boils down to the economic mobility on these reserves? But again, I've admitted historic events play a role, but there's nothing actively oppressing these people at the moment beyond the circumstances of their communities - which requires active participation of their leaders.

Reserves are run by band councils and some of the band councils have not been at very good at governing. Bad band councils deserve their share of the blame.

But the whole reservation system was imposed on the natives, by the British and later the Canadians.

We signed treaties we did not honour and with Native tribes that did not sign treaties, we just took their land and put them on reverses, whether they liked it or not.

So do the Natives bear some responsibility for their situation, yes, some, but that doesn't change the fact they have been living on system imposed upon them and have been historically disfranchised.

We put them in a bad spot and told them to make the best of it. Yes, there is personal responsibility, but you can't ignore other circumstances in situations like these.

I agree, but the need for change within the community will need to be present for anything to change inside that community.

My point is, racism exists in every society, no society has the moral high ground to gloat over being free of racism and every society should examine their own problems before being judgmental towards others.

Nobody is gloating? It's basic reality to acknowledge that racism takes different forms and some are worse than others. In some countries racism manifests as making it more difficult for people to get ahead, in others it means you'll be massacred in your sleep by your own country's military.

 

[The Overlord]

So then it boils down to the economic mobility on these reserves? But again, I've admitted historic events play a role, but there's nothing actively oppressing these people at the moment beyond the circumstances of their communities - which requires active participation of their leaders.



I agree, but the need for change within the community will need to be present for anything to change inside that community.

Except there is discrimination against Natives in big cities, you can't blame the band councils for that:

http://www.metronews.ca/news/canada...against-aboriginal-people-in-thunder-bay.html

http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/welcome-to-winnipeg-where-canadas-racism-problem-is-at-its-worst/

Racism exists everywhere, just in different forms, just saying "well nobody is perfect", is a poor excuse to do nothing about it.

Nobody is gloating? It's basic reality to acknowledge that racism takes different forms and some are worse than others. In some countries racism manifests as making it more difficult for people to get ahead, in others it means you'll be massacred in your sleep by your own country's military.

Sure, but being better then the worst governments in the world is nothing to proud about. Being morally superior to Nazi Germany, Apartheid South Africa or the government in Sudan is a such a minor moral trophy, its worthless.

Its like being proud about being morally superior to a serial killer, it means nothing. Saying America or Canada is better then the worst governments in the world, does not help African Americans or Native Canadians or anyone has to deal discrimination.

This is like saying Trump is a better leader then Kim Jong-un, that is true, but its also meaningless, Kim Jong-un's flaws do not translate into virtues for Trump and other countries being more racist then western countries, does nothing to excuse racism in our societies.

 

[hellified]

Surprise surprise, your first resort is to argue that the problem can't be solved. So not only do you incessantly complain about the specific cause of the problem, you also claim it can't be solved. That relegates the people you claim to care about to being eternal victims, that sounds fantastic.

"There's no set of policies that's going to be accepted"…Self-righteous defeatism…that's a new one for me.

youve been arguing that racism is basically human nature and that as long as there are nonhomogeneous societies its going to be there..NOW you want sure fire solutions on a message board... GTFOH

heres something whats some of YOUR policy solution to racism?

 

[hellified]

Sure, but being better then the worst governments in the world is nothing to proud about. Being morally superior to Nazi Germany, Apartheid South Africa or the government in Sudan is a such a minor moral trophy, its worthless.

Its like being proud about being morally superior to a serial killer, it means nothing. Saying America or Canada is better then the worst governments in the world, does not help African Americans or Native Canadians or anyone has to deal discrimination.

This is like saying Trump is a better leader then Kim Jong-un, that is true, but its also meaningless, Kim Jong-un's flaws do not translate into virtues for Trump and other countries being more racist then western countries, does nothing to excuse racism in our societies.

just another way of them saying shut up and take it

 

[Donner]

Jesus. You can acknowledge the shortcomings of a country and work towards making it better without sounding like you live in a hell hole. Maybe be a bit more thankful that you live in a place where you can drink the tap water or where you won't be hunted because people think there is gold in your bones or killed because you're gay or raped because you're a woman. Maybe be happy that you don't live near bodies of water that are so polluted that your family and friends all have horrific diseases. Your life expectancy is around 80 and you don't have to live in fear of a warlord deciding your ethnicity needs to be erased and sending men to kill you with machetes.

We can work towards making our countries better places to live for everybody, but we can't do that when people are constantly making sure that you don't forget that you're white and privileged.

 

[Kyle]

Maybe be a bit more thankful that you live in a place where you can drink the tap water or where you won't be hunted because people think there is gold in your bones or killed because you're gay or raped because you're a woman.

Or have to hide/live underground literally because death squads blatantly kill poor people living on the street: Bogota, Colombia - "social cleansing." That's the reality I would have been facing and living in if not for being rescued by being brought to America. Those complaining that America's the worst really should experience what it's like in third world countries. Can we / should we strive for progress? Yes, but America in numerous regards has always been great. I'm still alive because of America (and parents), in the alternate reality where I was never adopted - I'd be dead.

 

[The Overlord]

Jesus. You can acknowledge the shortcomings of a country and work towards making it better without sounding like you live in a hell hole. Maybe be a bit more thankful that you live in a place where you can drink the tap water or where you won't be hunted because people think there is gold in your bones or killed because you're gay or raped because you're a woman. Maybe be happy that you don't live near bodies of water that are so polluted that your family and friends all have horrific diseases. Your life expectancy is around 80 and you don't have to live in fear of a warlord deciding your ethnicity needs to be erased and sending men to kill you with machetes.

We can work towards making our countries better places to live for everybody, but we can't do that when people are constantly making sure that you don't forget that you're white and privileged.

I am not saying Canada or America or anywhere is some irredeemable evil place, where nothing good happens and everything is terrible.

Yeah, Canada, America and other Western countries are better then nightmare regimes that run Saudi Arabia and North Korea.

I actually do love Canada, I just don't like the bad aspects of it. I never agreed with left wingers who instantly side with third world countries over the best, because they are the underdog, because that way of thinking tends to paper over the problems those countries have.

I think every country has flaws and virtues, the flaws stick out more often because humans have a talent for being inhuman to each other, but the virtues are there. The West and other first world countries are the best places to live, that is no reason to rest on our laurels.

Germany acknowledges the bad stuff that happened in its past and I think that is a good thing. Japan just denies its past and because of that, it causes tension with its neighbors, that is a bad thing.

I just never accepted the idea that other countries being worse then your own as an excuse for inaction. The West has been blundering around, trying to export our values to the ME and it has not worked, maybe those countries have to solve their own problems.

I think when societies acknowledge their flaws, they act with humility rather then hubris and I think that is the most wise way to move forward, rather then trying to be triumphalist.

I think all societies should do that, but it likely will not happen.

Think of it this way, Canada and America have cleaner air then China, does the fact that China pollutes a lot mean we should be lax in our own environmental standards? I do not think so. Problems are problems and we should try to deal with our problems, rather then pointing to other places and saying their problems are worse, that does nothing to solve our problems or their problems. This is the train of logic I have a problem with, its been presented in this thread as a valid idea and totally disagree with it. That is why I point out the flaws in Canadian society, not because I hate Canada, but because I think even the most innocent seeming places has places when you look closer, there is no post racist society, so we have work harder rather then patting ourselves on the fact to being better then some country.

I love Canada, but I think it can be better and I think we can try harder to make it better, there is no such thing as a utopia, but that doesn't mean we can't put our full effort towards a better tomorrow, even if it won't be perfect.

Or have to hide/live underground literally because death squads blatantly kill poor people living on the street: Bogota, Colombia - "social cleansing." That's the reality I would have been facing and living in if not for being rescued by being brought to America. Those complaining that America's the worst really should experience what it's like in third world countries. Can we / should we strive for progress? Yes, but America in numerous regards has always been great. I'm still alive because of America (and parents), in the alternate reality where I was never adopted - I'd be dead.

I do not disagree, but I think a country acknowledging its own flaws and trying to improve it, is not being ungrateful towards that country.

I just don't buy "well other countries are worse" as an excuse for inaction.

 

[hellified]

Jesus. You can acknowledge the shortcomings of a country and work towards making it better without sounding like you live in a hell hole. Maybe be a bit more thankful that you live in a place where you can drink the tap water or where you won't be hunted because people think there is gold in your bones or killed because you're gay or raped because you're a woman. Maybe be happy that you don't live near bodies of water that are so polluted that your family and friends all have horrific diseases. Your life expectancy is around 80 and you don't have to live in fear of a warlord deciding your ethnicity needs to be erased and sending men to kill you with machetes.

We can work towards making our countries better places to live for everybody, but we can't do that when people are constantly making sure that you don't forget that you're white and privileged.

sooo the people in flint michigan can't complain??

 

[Donner]

Good job completing missing the point.

 

[DeadPresident]

Except there is discrimination against Natives in big cities, you can't blame the band councils for that:

http://www.metronews.ca/news/canada...against-aboriginal-people-in-thunder-bay.html

http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/welcome-to-winnipeg-where-canadas-racism-problem-is-at-its-worst/

Racism exists everywhere, just in different forms, just saying "well nobody is perfect", is a poor excuse to do nothing about it.

Except throughout this entire topic I've been suggested some ways of combating it, and asking for people who live in the actual country to suggest ways they think one can decrease its prevalence. You're either putting words in my mouth or deliberately misconstruing what I say with the last paragraph, I'm not saying "do nothing about it", I'm saying people need to contextualize their circumstances.

Sure, but being better then the worst governments in the world is nothing to proud about. Being morally superior to Nazi Germany, Apartheid South Africa or the government in Sudan is a such a minor moral trophy, its worthless.

Its like being proud about being morally superior to a serial killer, it means nothing. Saying America or Canada is better then the worst governments in the world, does not help African Americans or Native Canadians or anyone has to deal discrimination.

This is like saying Trump is a better leader then Kim Jong-un, that is true, but its also meaningless, Kim Jong-un's flaws do not translate into virtues for Trump and other countries being more racist then western countries, does nothing to excuse racism in our societies.

Now you're being needlessly hyperbolic, again. I used those examples to juxtapose the West with countries that actually are "the most racist countries in the world" - which is what some pop-leftists claim the West is. Let's break this down simply; if someone says "The USA has a massive problem with prejudice/racism" and I counter with "No, India has a massive problem with racism" I'm not saying America's problems don't need to be fixed I'm saying people need to contextualize their complaints in regard to reality. The West still provides the best living standards in the world, as someone currently living in a dump of an African country I have to roll my eyes when someone like hellified deplores what I'm assuming is where he stays (the West) when he has many opportunities and few detriments to his ability to achieve what he wants.

These two topics aren't mutually exclusive, it's possible to both identify the problems minorities face in the USA/the West while being grateful for/admitting that they still enjoy good standards of living overall. Pursuing positive change and acknowledging the benefits of a certain country aren't at odds with one another, despite a lot of people's best efforts to create that false dichotomy.

youve been arguing that racism is basically human nature and that as long as there are nonhomogeneous societies its going to be there..NOW you want sure fire solutions on a message board... GTFOH

heres something whats some of YOUR policy solution to racism?

I didn't say sure fire solutions, comprehension better.

I had a decent response typed up for this in regard to solutions related to education and positive socialization regarding diversity, but honestly you're not worth it. You act like a pedantic and morose little toddler that has frequent childish fits in this thread and I suspect even if all the variables in the world changed to make life exactly how you think you'd want it you'd still complain and place responsibility for your life on other people's shoulders.

As someone actually constructively contributing to this topic and with all due respect, you GTFOH

 

[The Overlord]

Except throughout this entire topic I've been suggested some ways of combating it, and asking for people who live in the actual country to suggest ways they think one can decrease its prevalence. You're either putting words in my mouth or deliberately misconstruing what I say with the last paragraph, I'm not saying "do nothing about it", I'm saying people need to contextualize their circumstances.

But you are asking for easy solutions, to pretty complex problems. I can't just give you a magic solution to a very complicated problem and I don't think Americans who decry racism in America can come up with easy solutions to racism there.

Dealing with racism is not some super easy problem with easy solutions, it takes a lot of hard work, there will probably be some false starts, we can try things and they don't work and then we have to try something else.

Any solution I come up with on the spot here, would likely be over simplistic, you can't expect me to come up with a ten page proposal to fixing racism in Canada, the US or any other country and just post it here.

You may as well ask to come up with on the spot solution for the Israeli Palestinian conflict.

Now you're being needlessly hyperbolic, again. I used those examples to juxtapose the West with countries that actually are "the most racist countries in the world" - which is what some pop-leftists claim the West is. Let's break this down simply; if someone says "The USA has a massive problem with prejudice/racism" and I counter with "No, India has a massive problem with racism" I'm not saying America's problems don't need to be fixed I'm saying people need to contextualize their complaints in regard to reality. The West still provides the best living standards in the world, as someone currently living in a dump of an African country I have to roll my eyes when someone like hellified deplores what I'm assuming is where he stays (the West) when he has many opportunities and few detriments to his ability to achieve what he wants.

These two topics aren't mutually exclusive, it's possible to both identify the problems minorities face in the USA while being grateful for/admitting that they still enjoy good standards of living overall. Pursuing positive change and acknowledging the benefits of a certain country aren't at odds with one another, despite a lot of people's best efforts to create that false dichotomy.

But I don't live in India, I don't have any ability to affect their country and frankly as a citizen of my country, I want to make my own country a better place for everyone in it. People in India have to work towards making their own country better. That is not really my business.


I am grateful for living in Canada, but that is no reason to be complacent and some people do promote complacency when they respond to problems like this by saying, well its worse in other countries. Such sentiments are not really helpful on any level. You do have right wingers who use such sentiments to try and shut down any discussion about problems at home (the "if you don't love America unconditionally, you can get out" style arguments)

I can accept countries have flaws and virtues, admire the virtues and want to deal with the flaws. I talk about what I love about Canada, but there is not on topic for this thread, is it?

 

[The Bruce]

If money, race, religion and politics didn't exist and we were living in a completly homogeneous harmonious utopia - hate and prejudice would still destroy us eventually.

Man is at his core a fearful, cowardly, selfish, flawed creature.

Edit: Thank you Regwec, for helping a guy out - nice to see my gloomy hypophysis disproved lol.

 

[regwec]

Man is at its his core a fearful, cowardicely, selfish, flawed creature.

Some are, some aren't.

 

[Kyle]

Is policing grammar absolutely necessary?

Here's a weird news story...

White Center woman charged with hate-crime after posting video rant about ‘Spanish privilege’

A White Center woman has been charged with a hate crime after posting a video on Facebook that prosecutors say shows her tailing a Hispanic woman in her car, railing against the other driver for being “Spanish privileged” and threatening to ram her vehicle.

Our news partner The Seattle Times reports that 48-year-old Sandra Jametski has been held on $500,000 bail since her malicious harassment arrest early last month.

King County prosecutors say she followed a neighbor as the neighbor drove to her child’s school — and that she recorded her racist rant on her cell phone.

Charging documents say Jametski continued recording as she confronted the neighbor at the school. Prosecutors say Jametski blamed one of the woman’s children for causing a car accident a year earlier, though police records show Jametski was at fault.

http://q13fox.com/2017/01/10/white-...ant-on-facebook-live-about-spanish-privilige/

As a Hispanic, um... What? I can't post her rant but you can find it at the article Link: the weird, deranged part about it is her rant.

 

[SuperT]

Anyone else watch last nights Black-ish? This scene was simply amazing...

http://www.thefader.com/2017/01/12/blackish-donald-trump-lemons-clip

 

[Kyle]

Anyone else watch last nights Black-ish? This scene was simply amazing...

http://www.thefader.com/2017/01/12/blackish-donald-trump-lemons-clip

That episode was amazing, definitely Emmy award worthy. Left no stone unturned with depicting the past two months. Also eye opening /educational, never knew about the fourth verse of the Star Spantled Banner that it's pro slavery for example.