Discussion: Racism - Part 2

[Infinity9999x]

Racism is a tough issue, and it usually leads us into the same arguments again and again. So much so that on my first visit to this thread I see a perfect example of exactly what I expected: a debate on the very nature of racism, specifically, can white people experience racism?

The hard thing about this issue is that people want to draw black and white lines (excuse the pun) and have it exist in a world of set definitions, but it's really a much grayer issue. This is my take on it, as a white, heterosexual man living in America:

The biggest problem we have is trying to equalize everything. People want to believe that we're all equal, we all get the same chances, and everyone experiences just as much racism as everyone else. And that's just not true. I realize that, politically, being born a straight white guy in the USA stacked the deck of life in my favor. I have opportunities and privilege afforded me simply because of my gender and skin color. For some reason people are afraid to admit this is a thing. However, I am not condoning this world behavior. Admitting it exists and supporting it are not the same thing. Which is why I have tried to use my status, as a person afforded more social opportunities, to help others of differing races and genders.

Now, on the other hand, can white people experience racism? Well, this becomes a semantic argument essentially. What I would say: yes, white people can exprience racism on a inter personal, or even small group level. They can't experience it on a institutionalized level. Not in America anyway, because straight white men, by and large, control the institutions of power in this country. I don't know what it feels like to flip through the television channels and not see myself represented. I've never known the feeling of reading a magazine without someone who looks like me in it, even if it's just in an add. Popular media has always shown me a version of myself, because white men are the group in power currently. Racism, on an institutional level is absolutely something white people will not be able to understand, because it's never happened in this country to white Americans.

The danger though, is that people want to simplify this issue. Someone sees a person of color using a racism claim for a selfish reason and then tries to claim that all claims of racism by people of color are merely duplicitous actions to get what they want, which is obviously not true. Or you get people saying that because white people can't experience institutionalized racism, they can't experience racism of any kind, which is obviously not true either, because a white person can certainly be discriminated against because of the color of their skin.

But it's hard to get people to look at these gray areas. Because we want things to be simple. We want things to be black and white. But the truth is, things just aren't that simple. But because this is such a hot button issue, we usually end up arguing the absolutes instead of looking at things in a case by case basis.

 

[DeadPresident]

This why this conversation is not going to go anywhere. Truly examine why too many people insist on making racism the product of an individual problem and not systemic. Who does defining racism this way benefit? Who does it absolve?

Ah yes, the favored tactic of a regressive leftist - refer to the unprovable and mysterious "systemic racism" as the source of all ills for a non-white group in America. The key thing here is you don't want it to be individuals committing racist acts because then it becomes something you can't use as this bogeyman, un-defeatable phenomenon. You want to be the perpetual victim.

For as long as people can hide behind "systemic racism" it remains an intangible, ever-present and inescapable force, which is
quite convenient, isn't it? It means whenever anything doesn't go your way you've got a safety net of an explanation to point to: "systemic racism".

You care about the individual and progress. Those ideologies have lead the way to Trump and Clinton and how great was that choice?

What…? You're prescribing specific ideological positions to me based on…? Conflating my views with political ideology just because I use the word individual in a social, not political, context? That's lazy. I thought you said you were an academic

Anyway, what this thread is about: making fun of people who care about racism, trying to undermine discriminated groups by focusing on white victimhood (sometimes seriously and sometimes just to spite people's feelings), and trumpeting rampant individualism (everyone is equal when i comes to racism, racism is colourblind!)

Something you don't seem to be able to comprehend is human beings experience life as individuals, not groups. Groups aren't oppressed, groups don't suffer discrimination, groups aren't subject to vitriol - individuals are. There are some black people who haven't been subjected to any kind of oppression, and who don't want to be defined primarily in the context of their race. But I doubt you like thinking about it, so it's easier to just talk about everyone as some homogenous representative of their group, which is why you ignored my explicit question about why you refer to people like that.

You keep playing this "systemic communitarian" card because it's all you've got, and it contradicts the most fundamental way people experience life: from their own perspective, as individuals. You like to ignore that though, it seems like you like to think people are nothing more than soulless and mindless arbiters of their demographic categories without agency or any form of independence.

What this thread isn't: a space where people can commiserate on their daily experiences with racism and find community, or a discussion on how racism plays into issues like NoDAPL, the shooting in Quebec, American immigration, etc.

This thread apparently also isn't a place where people like to discuss potential solutions or ways forward, just endlessly ***** and moan like children. I'm assuming that's because there is no way forward, there is no solution, right?

Some posts come pretty close to white nationlism, in a racism thread. I hoped the hype was better than this.

Yes, we haven't had hyperbolic appeals to emotion in a while, this is a good one. Would you care to point out these white nationalist posts? But then, redefining anything and everything to mean whatever you want it to is a favored tactic of people who don't actually want a problem to go away, isn't it? That's probably why you don't want to discuss solutions, because some day all your concerns might be addressed and you'll have to find something to do with your time besides be an eternal victim.

 

[DeadPresident]

Racism is a tough issue, and it usually leads us into the same arguments again and again. So much so that on my first visit to this thread I see a perfect example of exactly what I expected: a debate on the very nature of racism, specifically, can white people experience racism?

The hard thing about this issue is that people want to draw black and white lines (excuse the pun) and have it exist in a world of set definitions, but it's really a much grayer issue. This is my take on it, as a white, heterosexual man living in America:

The biggest problem we have is trying to equalize everything. People want to believe that we're all equal, we all get the same chances, and everyone experiences just as much racism as everyone else. And that's just not true. I realize that, politically, being born a straight white guy in the USA stacked the deck of life in my favor. I have opportunities and privilege afforded me simply because of my gender and skin color. For some reason people are afraid to admit this is a thing. However, I am not condoning this world behavior. Admitting it exists and supporting it are not the same thing. Which is why I have tried to use my status, as a person afforded more social opportunities, to help others of differing races and genders.

Now, on the other hand, can white people experience racism? Well, this becomes a semantic argument essentially. What I would say: yes, white people can exprience racism on a inter personal, or even small group level. They can't experience it on a institutionalized level. Not in America anyway, because straight white men, by and large, control the institutions of power in this country. I don't know what it feels like to flip through the television channels and not see myself represented. I've never known the feeling of reading a magazine without someone who looks like me in it, even if it's just in an add. Popular media has always shown me a version of myself, because white men are the group in power currently. Racism, on an institutional level is absolutely something white people will not be able to understand, because it's never happened in this country to white Americans.

The danger though, is that people want to simplify this issue. Someone sees a person of color using a racism claim for a selfish reason and then tries to claim that all claims of racism by people of color are merely duplicitous actions to get what they want, which is obviously not true. Or you get people saying that because white people can't experience institutionalized racism, they can't experience racism of any kind, which is obviously not true either, because a white person can certainly be discriminated against because of the color of their skin.

But it's hard to get people to look at these gray areas. Because we want things to be simple. We want things to be black and white. But the truth is, things just aren't that simple. But because this is such a hot button issue, we usually end up arguing the absolutes instead of looking at things in a case by case basis.

It's not semantic, actually, it's rather simple. That's like asking can white people experience pain, or happiness, or confusion. Whites aren't somehow magically imbued with powers to avoid experiencing specific things because of their race. If you're a white guy and I tell you you deserve to die because of your race and you're worthless are you protected from those words? Was the mentally handicapped guy who was kidnapped and tortured magically impervious or less affected because of his white skin? Human beings, largely, experience events rather similarly, irrespective of trivial things like their race, religion or sex. If someone insults your white mother because she's white, are you protected from the emotional effect of those words because you've got that magical white armor? This fallacy that whites are somehow better equipped (ironically that's just feeding into white supremacy, by the by) really needs to stop being propagated. Why do white people mourn if their family members die? They should be different right, they've got that fantastic whiteness. Why do white people get frustrated if something doesn't go their way? They've got that amazing whiteness so everything is all good, right?

This is what I don't understand about people who resort to the "institutional racism" or "systemic racism" copout, institutions can't be racist, buildings can't be racist, organizations can't be racist. People within organizations can be racist, people within institutions can encourage racist behavior, and they need to be dealt with. The systemic racism line is a copout from people who don't want to solve a problem, they just want something they can always blame, because you can never identify the guilty party when it's just "the system".

You want a case by case basis? Let's discuss specific cases then, systemic racism is per definition not a case by case basis, it defines almost each and every case of racism as some kind of grand scheme by some mysterious "system" instead of blaming the individual perpetrating the behavior.

 

[Mad Ones]

I see you're a pro at playing this game deadpresident. I'm done having this conversation because there are a million people like you lurking in all corners of the internet (and they voted Trump). This is a superhero forum, I'm not going to prove systemic racism to you. That burden shouldn't fall on me, it should fall on you. It is a labour to constantly defend your experiences. Your responsibility should be to listen to people affected. Go learn from people of colour who write about this, critical race scholarship, there are entire fields on this in academia (but I guess you're still ******** about flunking out of your humanities program), art, and politics. But I guess you'd rather cover your ears and shout "la la la regressive left." Institutions and systems built by and for a certain demographic will always benefit that demographic first.

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/02/deconstructing-the-liberal-campus-cliche/516336/?utm_source=atlfb

 

[DeadPresident]

I see you're a pro at playing this game deadpresident. I'm done having this conversation because there are a million people like you lurking in all corners of the internet (and they voted Trump). This is a superhero forum, I'm not going to prove systemic racism to you. That burden shouldn't fall on me, it should fall on you. Your responsibility should be listen to people affected. Go learn from people of colour who write about this, critical race scholarship, there are entire fields on this in academia (but I guess you're still ******** about flunking out of your humanities program), art, and politics. But I guess you'd rather cover your ears and shout "la la la progressive left." Institutions and systems built by and for a certain demographic will always benefit that demographic first.

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/02/deconstructing-the-liberal-campus-cliche/516336/?utm_source=atlfb

Jesus Christ, I'm not an American and I fall on the liberal spectrum of things politically but I happen to respect facts. If you've paid attention to any of my posts in this politics section you'd see I'm extremely critical of Cheetoh Jesus. But nice try with the character assassination by trying to conflate me with racists My responsibility? No, you're the one making a claim that institutional racism exists, I'm telling you to back it up. If someone claims God exists it isn't my responsibility to find proof of it. For a supposed academic you're really confused about how the burden of proof works. I'm actually a linguist with a post graduate degree in critical discourse analysis, but keep trying

The sad truth is you have no proof for any of the things you say, just slanted interpretation from people who share your warped views that the world is against them. Find me the proof, bring it to me, and I'll fight the racists with you, as someone that's been on the receiving end of vitriol about my identities before nothing would make me happier - but I can't help anyone oppose something they can't show me, and I certainly can't help when they tell me I'm part of the problem by virtue of a coincidence of my birth.

 

[moviedoors]

Some posts come pretty close to white nationlism, in a racism thread. I hoped the hype was better than this.

Specifically which ones? That's a serious accusation.

 

[Mad Ones]

Jesus Christ, I'm not an American and I fall on the liberal spectrum of things politically but I happen to respect facts. If you've paid attention to any of my posts in this politics section you'd see I'm extremely critical of Cheetoh Jesus. But nice try with the character assassination by trying to conflate me with racists My responsibility? No, you're the one making a claim that institutional racism exists, I'm telling you to back it up. If someone claims God exists it isn't my responsibility to find proof of it. For a supposed academic you're really confused about how the burden of proof works. I'm actually a linguist with a post graduate degree in critical discourse analysis, but keep trying

The sad truth is you have no proof for any of the things you say, just slanted interpretation from people who share your warped views that the world is against them. Find me the proof, bring it to me, and I'll fight the racists with you, as someone that's been on the receiving end of vitriol about my identities before nothing would make me happier - but I can't help anyone oppose something they can't show me, and I certainly can't help when they tell me I'm part of the problem by virtue of a coincidence of my birth.

What I find warped is how you just cannot see how the things you spew are in direct continuity with Trump being president.

You: "I demand people prove themselves to ME! I am the authority, I must be swayed. Meanwhile I won't do any of the labour myself"

 

[DeadPresident]

What I find warped is how you just cannot see how the things you spew are in direct continuity with Trump being president.

Wow, this is beyond reaching now You can't engage me on actual points of argument so you go the route of just trying to conflate me with Trump, again? The bizarre thing is everything I'm saying, you know, asking for proof and being reasonable, is precisely the opposite of everything Trump is encouraging.

You: "I demand people prove themselves to ME! I am the authority, I must be swayed. Meanwhile I won't do any of the labour myself"

Again with more hyperbole? Come on, you're better than this. Asking for proof of a claim that you are making is me saying I'm the authority? Alright.

P.S I like how you ignore all the pertinent parts of my post and refuse to engage with me on them.

 

[Mad Ones]

If the American incarceration system formed through legacies of slavery isn't obvious enough to convince you of anything I'm not sure what will.

The racism I feel is systemic. When I'm scared of getting carded, that's when I know, for example.

Read Stuart Hall, Audre Lorde, bell hooks, Edward Said, Ocean Yuong, Judith Butler, DarkMatter, etc etc. If you are unwilling to listen.

 

[Infinity9999x]

DeadPresident, to claim systems or institutions can't be racist is to contradict your own statment.

You claim people, individuals are racist. I agree. However, to then claim an institution, which fundamentally is nothing more than a group of people, can't be racist...is rather silly. If a large institution is compromised of people who have varying levels of racism, that will be reflected in the institution. And it is, which is why minorities are under represented in America.

Saying people are racist and institutions aren't is as silly as saying, "your car isn't broken, the pieces inside it are."

 

[moviedoors]

Saying people are racist and institutions aren't is as silly as saying, "your car isn't broken, the pieces inside it are."

Well put.

 

[Mad Ones]

Saying people are racist and institutions aren't is as silly as saying, "your car isn't broken, the pieces inside it are."

 

[DeadPresident]

DeadPresident, to claim systems or institutions can't be racist is to contradict your own statment.

You claim people, individuals are racist. I agree. However, to then claim an institution, which fundamentally is nothing more than a group of people, can't be racist...is rather silly. If a large institution is compromised of people who have varying levels of racism, that will be relented in the institution. And it is, which is why minorities are under represented in America.

Saying people are racist and institutions aren't is as silly as saying, "your car isn't broken, the pieces inside it are."

You seem to fundamentally misunderstand this entire notion. If an institution has 20 members, and 5 are racist, is the institution racist, or are the individuals? An institution is a group of people, but the institution isn't responsible for those people's actions, they as individuals are. If you're in an organization with a person who is a racist, your logic would dictate you're a racist by virtue of being associated with that institution because it has a racist in it. It's not only fallacious, it's insane.

Your car analogy actually proves my point completely, not yours. If your spark plugs are broken and your car won't start it isn't the "car that's broken" - it's the spark plugs preventing it from starting. You're doing precisely what Mad Ones is doing, you're attributing the specific cause (spark plugs) to the entire car. By your logic every time your cam belt needs to be replaced it's time to buy an entirely new car because "the car is broken".

So basically, instead of trying to address the racist individuals, let's just kill everyone and start again, shall we, since a minority of broken individuals mean the whole country is broken?

 

[Docker2.0]

Racism is a tough issue, and it usually leads us into the same arguments again and again. So much so that on my first visit to this thread I see a perfect example of exactly what I expected: a debate on the very nature of racism, specifically, can white people experience racism?

The hard thing about this issue is that people want to draw black and white lines (excuse the pun) and have it exist in a world of set definitions, but it's really a much grayer issue. This is my take on it, as a white, heterosexual man living in America:

The biggest problem we have is trying to equalize everything. People want to believe that we're all equal, we all get the same chances, and everyone experiences just as much racism as everyone else. And that's just not true. I realize that, politically, being born a straight white guy in the USA stacked the deck of life in my favor. I have opportunities and privilege afforded me simply because of my gender and skin color. For some reason people are afraid to admit this is a thing. However, I am not condoning this world behavior. Admitting it exists and supporting it are not the same thing. Which is why I have tried to use my status, as a person afforded more social opportunities, to help others of differing races and genders.

Now, on the other hand, can white people experience racism? Well, this becomes a semantic argument essentially. What I would say: yes, white people can exprience racism on a inter personal, or even small group level. They can't experience it on a institutionalized level. Not in America anyway, because straight white men, by and large, control the institutions of power in this country. I don't know what it feels like to flip through the television channels and not see myself represented. I've never known the feeling of reading a magazine without someone who looks like me in it, even if it's just in an add. Popular media has always shown me a version of myself, because white men are the group in power currently. Racism, on an institutional level is absolutely something white people will not be able to understand, because it's never happened in this country to white Americans.

The danger though, is that people want to simplify this issue. Someone sees a person of color using a racism claim for a selfish reason and then tries to claim that all claims of racism by people of color are merely duplicitous actions to get what they want, which is obviously not true. Or you get people saying that because white people can't experience institutionalized racism, they can't experience racism of any kind, which is obviously not true either, because a white person can certainly be discriminated against because of the color of their skin.

But it's hard to get people to look at these gray areas. Because we want things to be simple. We want things to be black and white. But the truth is, things just aren't that simple. But because this is such a hot button issue, we usually end up arguing the absolutes instead of looking at things in a case by case basis.

Great post! Agreed 100%! I do think white people can experience racism but this crying that minorities are just *****ing just to ***** is crazy. Do some minorities play the race card when it isn't there? Yes! But racism does exist today and really hasn't gone away no matter how much some people choose to ignore it. Can't stress enough how much I love your post!

 

[DeadPresident]

Well put.

It actually doesn't work that way, movie. Is everyone in the presidency suddenly a racist by association because of Trump? Remember, if you follow this line of logic you become responsible by association for the behavior of others just because you may share a common employer or social organization.

You probably work with a few racists, now you're part of a racist institution.

 

[Docker2.0]

If the American incarceration system formed through legacies of slavery isn't obvious enough to convince you of anything I'm not sure what will.

The racism I feel is systemic. When I'm scared of getting carded, that's when I know, for example.

Read Stuart Hall, Audre Lorde, bell hooks, Edward Said, Ocean Yuong, Judith Butler, DarkMatter, etc etc. If you are unwilling to listen.

Wasn't there a case in Pennsylvania and Alabama where cops and judges were locking up minorities because prisons were making money for them? So that adds directly to your point.

 

[Sithborg]

The for profit prison system is horrifying. Which makes DeVos, who is in favor of for profit schools, is kind of scary.

 

[Docker2.0]

The for profit prison system is horrifying. Which makes DeVos, who is in favor of for profit schools, is kind of scary.

If that happens, you talking about some 1984 stuff coming to life! You think it's bad now.......

 

[Mad Ones]

Wasn't there a case in Pennsylvania and Alabama where cops and judges were locking up minorities because prisons were making money for them? So that adds directly to your point.

Stories like this are all too common I'd recommend the documentary "The 13th" on Netflix for anyone interested.

 

[moviedoors]

The racism I feel is systemic. When I'm scared of getting carded, that's when I know, for example.

Let me preface this by saying I believe institutionalized racism is a real measurable problem. But pure appeals to emotion hold so little sway for me. All they prove is that someone had a feeling. White supremacists feel it in their gut that blacks are inferior. Sandy Hook truthers know it in their bones that no children died that day and that those parents are liars. UFO abductees would swear on their mother's grave that they had an alien encounter. Obviously, not a one of those feelings proves a damn thing. It's all anecdotal and if we're being intellectually honest with ourselves, we must hold ourselves to the same standard when it comes to the issues that we hold dear.

 

[DeadPresident]

Wasn't there a case in Pennsylvania and Alabama where cops and judges were locking up minorities because prisons were making money for them? So that adds directly to your point.

Okay but serious logical point I'm asking you to explain and defend, since Mad can't do it:

Isn't it those cops and judges who are racist, not the police stations and the courts? If you remove those racists and have non-racists left, are the police stations and courts still racist? You need people to execute racist actions, an institution is an inanimate object, it requires the people to do things. People are the source of the problems, those specific people who behaved that way.

If you choose not to identify and prosecute individuals but stick the institution narrative it means you take culpability away from actual individuals who can be disciplined and removed from the institutions.

 

[moviedoors]

It actually doesn't work that way, movie. Is everyone in the presidency suddenly a racist by association because of Trump? Remember, if you follow this line of logic you become responsible by association for the behavior of others just because you may share a common employer or social organization.

You probably work with a few racists, now you're part of a racist institution.

I think he was on to something with calling this semantics. I don't have the numbers, and correct me if I'm wrong, but for example black men get charged more harshly than whites for similar offenses generally speaking. I'm not sure what you'd call that other than a systematic bias. The irony is, the way to fix it isn't going to be from some broad measure but probably a more granular approach to the specific parts that aren't working.

 

[Mad Ones]

Let me preface this by saying I believe institutionalized racism is a real measurable problem. But pure appeals to emotion hold so little sway for me. All they prove is that someone had a feeling. White supremacists feel it in their gut that blacks are inferior. Sandy Hook truthers know it in their bones that no children died that day and that those parents are liars. UFO abductees would swear on their mother's grave that they had an alien encounter. Obviously, not a one of those feelings proves a damn thing. It's all anecdotal and if we're being intellectually honest with ourselves, we must hold ourselves to the same standard when it comes to the issues that we hold dear.

Sure. Carding has been ruled unconstitutional but police continue to do it, often under different names. Hell, the one black city councillor in my city was carded while none of his peers have. What I gave was an example of how it affects people, affects that are, yes, emotion (which shouldn't be dismissed offhand) AND material.

 

[DeadPresident]

If the American incarceration system formed through legacies of slavery isn't obvious enough to convince you of anything I'm not sure what will.

The racism I feel is systemic. When I'm scared of getting carded, that's when I know, for example.

Read Stuart Hall, Audre Lorde, bell hooks, Edward Said, Ocean Yuong, Judith Butler, DarkMatter, etc etc. If you are unwilling to listen.

You've listed a bunch of post-modernists, not exactly the most rational of people, the bolded of which I came across extensively in my own studies. If you give me this list to read, am I allowed to give you a list of reasonable academics who may disagree with your views to read - since that's how critical engagement works?

 

[Infinity9999x]

You seem to fundamentally misunderstand this entire notion. If an institution has 20 members, and 5 are racist, is the institution racist, or are the individuals? An institution is a group of people, but the institution isn't responsible for those people's actions, they as individuals are. If you're in an organization with a person who is a racist, your logic would dictate you're a racist by virtue of being associated with that institution because it has a racist in it. It's not only fallacious, it's insane.

Your car analogy actually proves my point completely, not yours. If your spark plugs are broken and your car won't start it isn't the "car that's broken" - it's the spark plugs preventing it from starting. You're doing precisely what Mad Ones is doing, you're attributing the specific cause (spark plugs) to the entire car. By your logic every time your cam belt needs to be replaced it's time to buy an entirely new car because "the car is broken".

So basically, instead of trying to address the racist individuals, let's just kill everyone and start again, shall we, since a minority of broken individuals mean the whole country is broken?

You're highlighting my point of dealing in absolutes. I don't think it's as simple as "oh we have a few racist members, the whole institution is racist." I think every person has a level of inherent racism within them. Now, the level exists on a wide spectrum, but everyone has it to an extent for certain groups.

Therefore, yes, I believe all institutions have a level of racial bias, because all people do. How extreme this level is depends on the institution and it's members. I'm not saying that all institutions are the same as the institution of the KKK. But they all operate on a level of bias, because nearly all of the most powerful institutions in our country are controlled by white, straight men, so those institutions will naturally be more biased in favor of that group of people. That's just human nature. To deny it is, again, to deny the point you made about people being the ones who are racist.

Where I think we seem to disagree is that I believe a level of racial bias exists in every single person on the planet, to varying extents. So therefore, all institutions will reflect a level of bias. To use the car example: it's not just spark plugs, the rust has corroded every single piece of the vehicle to varying extents.

Do I think this means we need to tear institutions down and spread anarchy? No, of course not. I think it's something we should be aware of and be constantly mindful of, and continue to work to improve.