Discussion: Racism - Part 2

[DeadPresident]

I think he was on to something with calling this semantics. I don't have the numbers, and correct me if I'm wrong, but for example black men get charged more harshly than whites for similar offenses generally speaking. I'm not sure what you'd call that other than a systematic bias. The irony is, the way to fix it isn't going to be from some broad measure but probably a more granular approach to the specific parts that aren't working.

This isn't semantics, if that's the case then the racist police chiefs, cops and courts need to be addressed. By saying systemic racism all you do is hide the guilty party, which makes it impossible to solve the problem. If you want this problem solved isn't it better to socialize people properly, re-educate them if they're open to it, or kick them the hell out if they're not?

The whole systemic racism concept is based on not solving the problem specifically because it hides the guilty racists, and also hides the people on the receiving end as nothing but numbers on a home affairs paper. Your last sentence proves my point, the dysfunctional pieces are at fault, not the system, this is why Infinity's car analogy directly proves what I'm saying as logically correct. As I said before, if the whole system is the issue then there's no solution, just let America burn to the ground and restart.

By saying a system is racist it taints everyone in that system, irrespective of actual participation, as being equal to the people actually behaving in a racist manner. I'm not sure how else to articulate this if you can't see why that's a dangerous precedent.

 

[Mad Ones]

Okay but serious logical point I'm asking you to explain and defend, since Mad can't do it:

Isn't it those cops and judges who are racist, not the police stations and the courts? If you remove those racists and have non-racists left, are the police stations and courts still racist? You need people to execute racist actions, an institution is an inanimate object, it requires the people to do things. People are the source of the problems, those specific people who behaved that way.

If you choose not to identify and prosecute individuals but stick the institution narrative it means you take culpability away from actual individuals who can be disciplined and removed from the institutions.

Plenty of cops are black and yet black people are punished more harshly for crimes.

Have you ever wondered why, under Obama, Black Lives Matter formed? The President still bombed the Middle East and cops still killed black people.

 

[DeadPresident]

You're highlighting mu point of dealing in absolutes. I don't think it's as simple as "oh we have a few racist members, the whole institution is racist." I think every person has a level of inherent racism within them. Now, the level exists on a wide spectrum, but everyone has it to an extent for certain groups.

Therefore, yes, I believe all institutions have a level of racial bias, because all people do. How extreme this level is depends on the institution and it's members. I'm not saying that all institutions are the same as the institution of the KKK. But they all operate on a level of bias, because nearly all of the most powerful institutions in our country are controlled by white, straight men, so those institutions will naturally be more biased in favor of that group of people. That's just human nature. To deny it is, again, to deny the point you made about people being the ones who are racist.

Where I think we seem to disagree is that I believe a level of racial bias exists in every single person on the planet, to varying extents. So therefore, all institutions will reflect a level of bias. To use the car example: it's not just spark plugs, the rust has corroded every single piece of the vehicle to varying extents.

Do I think this means we need to tear institutions down and spread anarchy? No, of course not. I think it's something we should be aware of and be constantly mindful of, and continue to work to improve.

And I'm going to ask you the same thing I asked Mad Ones before he called me a racist: Where is the proof? You're referring to Implicit Bias, which basically boils down to "If I can't prove you're a racist, all I'll say is you have invisible racist tendencies because other whites are racist". The logical underpinnings of the majority of your arguments are incredibly flawed. What evidence is there to suggest everyone has some racial bias? That's a depressingly cynical view to hold.

If the rust has corroded every part of the vehicle then what do you do to salvage the vehicle? You don't, you send it to the scrap heap.

 

[Mad Ones]

By saying a system is racist it taints everyone in that system, irrespective of actual participation, as being equal to the people actually behaving in a racist manner. I'm not sure how else to articulate this if you can't see why that's a dangerous precedent.

Ah I think this gets to it. YOU probably don't ever want to feel like you're racist. You said you were liberal, that makes sense. You are probably scared at the idea that being complicit in systems (built on genocide, colonialism, and slavery) might make you racist. You are probably scared at the idea that directly benefiting from these systems (law, markets, public office, education) might make you racist. It's uncomfortable as **** but maybe that's important.

 

[DeadPresident]

Plenty of cops are black and yet black people are punished more harshly for crimes.

Have you ever wondered why, under Obama, Black Lives Matter formed? The President still bombed the Middle East and cops still killed black people.

You're genuinely all over the place, man, what does Obama bombing the ME have to do with anything? If there's systemic racism then why would a white person ever be killed by a cop? Surely they'd never shoot at a white person, then?

I'm assuming since men are predominantly killed by police at a rate three times higher than women there's systemic sexism against men? Like I've said before, addressing racist individuals is the way to go, because following your logic we can't do anything to institutions, how do we rid institutions of racism without engaging with individuals?

And by the by, cop-related murders of black Americans is decreasing, I'll find the stats and edit this post. The stats were higher in the mid 2000s, why didn't BLM form then?

 

[DeadPresident]

Ah I think this gets to it. YOU probably don't ever want to feel like you're racist. You said you were liberal, that makes sense. You are probably scared at the idea that being complicit in systems (built on genocide, colonialism, and slavery) might make you racist. You are probably scared at the idea that directly benefiting from these systems (law, markets, public office, education) might make you racist. It's uncomfortable as **** but maybe that's important.

Again, I'm not American, I didn't build anything. I don't care if somebody calls me a racist if I'm behaving like a racist, then discipline me and call me out on it. What I'd prefer, though, is not to be accused of something prior to having committed said act. Whites in the USA overwhelmingly murder other whites, but if I visit the States I'd prefer not to be thought of as someone who murders whites until I've actually done it. And again, you show the flaw of your logic, how can a white American benefitting from something like colonialism and slavery make them racist? You're equating the beneficiary of a crime with the criminal, that's laughable in the extreme. The sins of the father are now the sins of the son?

And since I don't judge people or engage with them based on their identities, whatever they may be, I tend not to show any prejudice. I care about facts, which is what seems to bother you, because your emotional appeals don't work.

Edit: I can't stress the importance of this absolute stupidity in the bold enough; someone benefitting from a crime doesn't make them guilty of the crime, your logic is absolutely atrocious and you're getting even more irrational in trying to prove your points.

 

[Mad Ones]

You're genuinely all over the place, man, what does Obama bombing the ME have to do with anything? If there's systemic racism then why would a white person ever be killed by a cop? Surely they'd never shoot at a white person, then?

I'm assuming since men are predominantly killed by police at a rate three times higher than women there's systemic sexism against men? Like I've said before, addressing racist individuals is the way to go, because following your logic we can't do anything to institutions, how do we rid institutions of racism without engaging with individuals?

And by the by, cop-related murders of black Americans is decreasing, I'll find the stats and edit this post. The stats were higher in the mid 2000s, why didn't BLM form then?

Men are murdered by cops more often because people are scared of black masculinity. And this relationship between black people and cops has existed since abolition. I suspect BLM formed through a combination of technologies finally exposing racist cops. Haven't you actually read any of the audits of police stations? If you did you'd know it's not about "individual racist cops."

You make it seem like the cops murdering black people already think of themselves as racist and act on it. That is not the case. They've been socialized into assuming black masculinity is a threat and they react (without thinking because of the nature of these situations) disproportionately.

Of course individuals exist and people are the agents of change. But the way you completely disavow history and larger systems is really troublesome.

 

[Mad Ones]

Again, I'm not American, I didn't build anything. I don't care if somebody calls me a racist if I'm behaving like a racist, then discipline me and call me out on it. What I'd prefer, though, is not to be accused of something prior to having committed said act. Whites in the USA overwhelmingly murder other whites, but if I visit the States I'd prefer not to be thought of as someone who murders whites until I've actually done it. And again, you show the flaw of your logic, how can a white American benefitting from something like colonialism and slavery make them racist? You're equating the beneficiary of a crime with the criminal, that's laughable in the extreme. The sins of the father are now the sins of the son?

And since I don't judge people or engage with them based on their identities, whatever they may be, I tend not to show any prejudice. I care about facts, which is what seems to bother you, because your emotional appeals don't work.

I can see that you don't care about people, only what they're reduced to through empiricism.

Not trying to change and benefiting from something that is unjust is unjust.

 

[DeadPresident]

Men are murdered by cops more often because people are scared of black masculinity. And this relationship between black people and cops has existed since abolition. I suspect BLM formed through a combination of technologies finally exposing racist cops. Haven't you actually read any of the audits of police stations? If you did you'd know it's not about "individual racist cops."

You make it seem like the cops murdering black people already think of themselves as racist and act on it. That is not the case. They've been socialized into assuming black masculinity is a threat and they react (without thinking because of the nature of these situations) disproportionately.

Of course individuals exist and people are the agents of change. But the way you completely disavow history and larger systems is really troublesome.

So white men are murdered because people are afraid of black masculinity…? Can you please stop reciting rhetoric from your intersectionality textbooks and please engage this topic reasonably? You're making more and more spurious statements without any evidence, again.

They're not "afraid of black masculinity"; statistically black men commit violent crime and murder at a disproportionately higher rate; probably meaning they're going to engage with cops at a higher rate: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-by-police-yes-but-no/?utm_term=.747b8150bcc1. And violence and poverty generally go together, which is why poor black Americans, whites, and Latinos are murdered at a higher rate than affluent ones. This is a class issue, not a race issue.

And like I've asked Commissioner, SuperT, hellified before, what do you suggest as solutions to fix these systems you propose are racist? Give me tangible things to work with and I can actually engage with that.

I can see that you don't care about people, only what they're reduced to through empiricism.

Not trying to change and benefiting from something that is unjust is unjust.

Rofl, and again you avoid addressing my point that showed your argument was horrendously flawed. You equate the beneficiary of a crime to the criminal then just change tack to saying "not trying to change and benefitting from something that is unjust is unjust".

Says the individual that reduces everyone to their statistical demographics and refuses to acknowledge them as individuals with agency?! I just said show me incidences of racism so I can fight and condemn them and you tell me I don't care about people? So slandering me personally is how you try and engage in intellectual debates, alrighty.

Okay this is too much now, it's going to be like trying to find a corner in a round room, cheers.

 

[Mad Ones]

Says a lot when someone overuses laughing emojis and clearly looks like they're enjoying themselves in a thread on racism.

But it's really about the game of argument rather than content, isn't it?

 

[DeadPresident]

Says a lot when someone overuses laughing emojis and clearly looks like they're enjoying themselves in a thread on racism.

But it's really about the game of argument rather than content, isn't it?

If you were on the receiving end of mind-shatteringly, frustratingly poor thought on this topic your reaction would also be to laugh, because the only other reaction I have is to cry.

Again, good job avoiding all the facts I posted and latching onto one part of my post,

This time for realsies, I'm out.

 

[moviedoors]

Says a lot when someone overuses laughing emojis and clearly looks like they're enjoying themselves in a thread on racism

I'm enjoying the thread. Reading this thread has been personally informative in so far as it's helping me define the edges of what I think are good and bad ideas. So?

 

[Infinity9999x]

And I'm going to ask you the same thing I asked Mad Ones before he called me a racist: Where is the proof? You're referring to Implicit Bias, which basically boils down to "If I can't prove you're a racist, all I'll say is you have invisible racist tendencies because other whites are racist". The logical underpinnings of the majority of your arguments are incredibly flawed. What evidence is there to suggest everyone has some racial bias? That's a depressingly cynical view to hold.

If the rust has corroded every part of the vehicle then what do you do to salvage the vehicle? You don't, you send it to the scrap heap.

I think this is the difference in our view. I don't view it as depressing, I view it as simply logical. Everyone having a level of racism doesn't mean I think all people are inherently evil. A racist tendency could be as simple as knowing that because you grew up in a primarily white or black environment, part of you is always a bit more at ease when you're around white or black people. Now, it's one thing to acknowledge that fact about yourself, and work on it. It's another to foster it and justify it. I view racism like addiction. There are addicts who haven't had a drop of alcohal in 30 years, and there are addicts who have five or more beers every day. They're both still addicts, the addictive tendency is still there, but one is working to improve and one isn't.

So while all parts of the car have rust, some parts are rusted through, and some parts are just merely spotted, which is why I don't believe in scrapping it. I believe in working to fix the problems that are there, buying new parts and replacing the old ones. Because, as I've said, it's all about about scale. You seem to keep taking my examples to their extreme, whereas I believe this issue, as most issues are, is complex. It's not black and white, it's gray. So yes, while I believe all institutions are racist to varying degrees because all people have a level of racial bias, I don't believe all institutions are beyond repair.

As for proof, just look at our major institutions. The majority of our politicians are white men. Look at the disparity between education in minority areas and white areas, look at the very field I work in. I'm an actor working in NYC. The majority of lead roles in Hollywood and on Broadway? White men. The majority of people involved in the creative process? White men.

Now, does that mean I think this is all a giant conspiracy to keep white men in power? No. But humans tend to favor the group that they are a part of, often times without realizing it. Do I enjoy watching movies with a straight white make protagonist? Of course I do, because I relate to that. When I write a play, it tends to be about white men, because I write what I know. I'm not out to limit material available to minorities, I just happen to be biased towards myself. As all people are.

And when you have enough people acting in this way, in an institution, you get an institution that ends up being biased towards one group of people. Often without meaning to be.

What matters is how we adress this problem. The fist hurdle is simply getting people to acknowledge that it happens.

 

[regwec]

The level of casual anti-white racism in this thread is really quite astounding.

 

[chaseter]

I can see that you don't care about people, only what they're reduced to through empiricism.

You did the exact same thing to whites.

 

[chaseter]

The level of casual anti-white racism in this thread is really quite astounding.

It's not casual.

Funny how intolerant some are that are speaking out against intolerance. They are no better than those they despise.

 

[Docker2.0]

The level of casual anti-white racism in this thread is really quite astounding.

Yep! Talking about racism is now the new reverse racism. Wow! Same as a woman being beaten but told to just smile in public because eventually it will go away. Gotcha!

 

[chaseter]

Is the woman white or black in this scenario? Because that matters to some in here.

 

[regwec]

Yep! Talking about racism is now the new reverse racism. Wow! Same as a woman being beaten but told to just smile in public because eventually it will go away. Gotcha!

Pathetic.

 

[Sawyer]

The level of false equivalence. I can't even.

 

[DeadPresident]

What is that trying to communicate?

 

[DJ Kornphlake]

That Devos is a hero like those who fought for desegregated schools.

 

[Matt]

What is that trying to communicate?

I think, and I don't want to speak for Sawyer, but I think he is reflecting on the level of intellectual dishonesty in this thread among certain posters trying to equate the racial inequity African Americans have faced to so called "white discrimination."

The notion of white discrimination is absurd. Are there people who are mean to others because they are white? Sure. Are there people who say things like "cracker" to diminish whites? Yep. Are there those who paint with a broad brush and accuse white people of being evil. Again, yes.

None of that is real discrimination. Not compared to the plight that African Americans have faced in our country. White people do not have a long history of being discriminated against. White people are not still suffering due to the INSTITUTIONAL inequity in our country that existed until about 30 years ago. White people are not getting pulled over for being white. White people are not being shot for being white.

"Reverse-discrimination" is, as Sawyer put it, a false equivalence. To complain about white discrimination is essentially the same as someone with a paper cut whining about how hard they have it to someone in a full body cast.

 

[Midnyte_Sun]

The level of false equivalence. I can't even.

How deluded are Republicans to support this severely unqualified joke? That false equivalency should win an award.

 

[regwec]

I think, and I don't want to speak for Sawyer, but I think he is reflecting on the level of intellectual dishonesty in this thread among certain posters trying to equate the racial inequity African Americans have faced to so called "white discrimination."

The notion of white discrimination is absurd. Are there people who are mean to others because they are white? Sure. Are there people who say things like "cracker" to diminish whites? Yep. Are there those who paint with a broad brush and accuse white people of being evil. Again, yes.

None of that is real discrimination. Not compared to the plight that African Americans have faced in our country. White people do not have a long history of being discriminated against. White people are not still suffering due to the INSTITUTIONAL inequity in our country that existed until about 30 years ago. White people are not getting pulled over for being white. White people are not being shot for being white.

"Reverse-discrimination" is, as Sawyer put it, a false equivalence. To complain about white discrimination is essentially the same as someone with a paper cut whining about how hard they have it to someone in a full body cast.

But both are still racism, which reflects this thread's title. The point you make is that the effects of racism against whites are generally weaker than the effects of racism against minorities. That will inevitably be the case while whites remain a majority. But the ignorant, small-minded, bigoted sentiments behind racism in each guise remain the same.