Discussion: The Tea Party

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Just stating what the budget office and CBO are reporting. $1.38 trillion is still a terrible figure, but it will still be back to where it was when Obama took office at the first quarter of next year. Surprising considering he's such a "big socialist spender" blah blah. Sorry to say.
 
Just stating what the budget office and CBO are reporting. $1.38 trillion is still a terrible figure, but it will still be back to where it was when Obama took office at the first quarter of next year. Surprising considering he's such a "big socialist spender" blah blah. Sorry to say.

Source? :whatever:
 
Good post Crowe :word:

Do people realize that the Stock Market is a variation of a socilaism?

The stock market is in actuality Public ownership of the means of production.

Paid Healthcare for veterans is a socialist principle.

The government maintaining roads and waterways are socialist principles.

Maintaining a standing military is a socialist principle.

My point is socialism is not all bad and our system is mix of Capitalist and Socialist principles.

A balance must be struck and do to circumstances it slides to the left or right. 100% capitalism is not good just as 100% socialism is not good either....

The Stock Market is NOT remotely socialist because it's not the PUBLIC ownership of companies but PEOPLE owning shares of company. (see the difference?) Healthcare for veterans isn't "socialist" because veterans are government employees and, as such, are entitled to the benefits of employment. The military is a valid source of government employment because the only valid use of government is protection of rights - which should be the duty of the military.The government building roads and waterways is more socialist. Building roads at the Federal level is also Unconstitutional. 100% Capitalism is simply 100% Freedom
 
Yes, war did make us rich and pull us out of a Depression---with MASSIVE government stimulus spending on the war effort (spending that paid for such silly things as the atomic bomb that won the Pacific Theater and clearly positioned us above USSR, scaring them out of the Pacific permanently). And after the war the stability offered by sound economics and programs like Social Security, the GI Bill (educating our returning war heroes into a better working force in a "socialist program"), and the Civil Rights Act created more opportunity and more prosperity. You can say by the late '70s that the programs were bloated and in need of overhaul, but even Ronald Reagan understood reforming did not mean destroying as he worked with Tip O'Neal to reform social security and such programs that continued a level of measured prosperity.

The early 20th century was a rollercoaster of economic crisis, boom and bust for the first 30 years, leading to a decade-long bust. Post-FDR and WWII we saw economic prosperity that lasted decades after the 1940s boom and a society with an exploding middle class thanks the government relief efforts of that era. Like a good libertarian, your ideology fails to see that the reason we stayed prosperous and grew a middle class, decreased the poverty line and developed the retirement standard in this country was because of sound policy that you want to dismantle so we can return to the crises of the early 20th century--like we did in 2008 after 30 years of deregulating Wall Street.

And the greatest irony is even after 2008 resembling 1929, you still think the Harding-Coolidge model is ideal.

And like a good Progressive your sense of history is unfortunately misguided.You do realize that by the start of the 1940's we were already seeing massive cutbacks to FDR's programs, right? More Republicans went to Washington in order to fight back against FDR's anti-business programs. By 1938 most of the restrictions on prices and labor were gone (and as such, industries saw longer work weeks and more production as the 40's went on). By 1942 FDR moved to liquidate the Public Works Administration. Truman's administration saw tax cuts (pushed by the Republican Congress). It wasn't until the 60's where we saw a new push for large, FDR/Wilsonian like government programs in the disasterous public policy of the Great Society. (If you want to see where the black community was truly mangled by the "white man" look at the well-intentioned government policy of this time). As I said before, the WAR did create many great advantages that America used to become the power we are now. It wasn't the government pushed WAR-EFFORD (i.e. greater government spending, government control of factories and the like) but from the distruction of European capital (factories, labor, land, etc.) and the patriotic spirit that drives production and promotes public sacrifice for the "greater good". (These aspects of the war economy is exactly the creation Progressives wish to create with their "domestic wars" such as the War On Poverty and Global Warming.) The fact remains that 1929 was the result of government intervention of the markets. Hoover's solution was a proto-New Deal that was replaced by FDR's larger more disasterous New Deal which was expanded upon by LBJ's Great Society. It is programs like these (and the Republican Parties failure to destroy them, and willingness to add to them) that created 2008.Essentially the next few years should prove one of us right, right? It seems to me that you have an optimisitic look on the future of the American economy where as I think we are heading towards a Depression.
 
I'm working from a turn-of-then-century computer with Windows 98, which apparently has the quirk of not allowing SHH! to use it's formatting. So I apologize the lack of paragraphs - they were there when I typed them! lol
 
The internet came along in the mid to late nineties and bought about a whole new economic boom/bust with a whole new industry

this country desperately needs something like that now
 
And like a good Progressive your sense of history is unfortunately misguided.

Coming from someone who I've seen argue that Lincoln should had no right to prevent secession, FDR's policies ruined American capitalism in the 20th century (as opposed to thanking him for saving it), that the Federal government did not need to get involved to end Jim Crow and segregation, and that racism against blacks after the Civil Rights Act had nothing to do with the Solid South changing parties ( :lmao: ), I'll take that as a compliment. ;)

You do realize that by the start of the 1940's we were already seeing massive cutbacks to FDR's programs, right? More Republicans went to Washington in order to fight back against FDR's anti-business programs. By 1938 most of the restrictions on prices and labor were gone (and as such, industries saw longer work weeks and more production as the 40's went on). By 1942 FDR moved to liquidate the Public Works Administration. Truman's administration saw tax cuts (pushed by the Republican Congress). It wasn't until the 60's where we saw a new push for large, FDR/Wilsonian like government programs in the disasterous public policy of the Great Society. (If you want to see where the black community was truly mangled by the "white man" look at the well-intentioned government policy of this time). As I said before, the WAR did create many great advantages that America used to become the power we are now. It wasn't the government pushed WAR-EFFORD (i.e. greater government spending, government control of factories and the like) but from the distruction of European capital (factories, labor, land, etc.) and the patriotic spirit that drives production and promotes public sacrifice for the "greater good".

I think you're points on the war are half right. What made us a superpower AFTER the war (besides the nuke) was that we were not ravaged by war on our shores and so had no manufacturing competition. However, we were long, long out of Depression by the mid-late 1940s. You seem to overlook what brought us out of Depression, was MASSIVE GOVERNMENT EXPENDITURE ON THE WAR. You're right it happened due to growth spurt in the American spirit of shared sacrifice. But do you know where that saved us from? The moronic Republicans coming to D.C. that caused the Double Dip Recession in 1937 when FDR began cutting back on programs to placate these idiots. Just as Obama is doing now (God help us it doesn't have similar results) despite a slow recovery being earned from massive government programs, the GOP ran successfully on campaigns of "fiscal responsibility," and FDR (like Obama now) cut short the recovery. Lo and behold we sunk back into recession. Then after Pearl Harbor, Americans don't care about the deficit, they want to WIN THE WAR and then the government starts spending at rate where our deficit was over half the GDP.

And guess what? It worked.

Lastly, LBJ's policies (and Kennedy's ideals) hurt the black community. You're so right, they were doing splendidly stuck in poverty in the South without a real ability to have a fair education, vote, or generally not be murdered for talking to a white woman. Those stupid progressives coming in and giving them equal opportunity, better schools, more legal protections and an ability to pay for the health care for the criminally underpaid elderly. Those progressive sons of *****es. :rolleyes:

The way you tap dance around historical facto fit your naive view of history is astounding.

(These aspects of the war economy is exactly the creation Progressives wish to create with their "domestic wars" such as the War On Poverty and Global Warming.)

Global Warming/Climate Change is going to be like the shark in the third act of Jaws to your Mayor of Amity Island. ;)

As for war on poverty, last I checked poverty went down in a huge way and the middle class exploded post-FDR, while since "small government" deregulatory policies became the norm since Reagan, the middle class has shrunk, income growth for 90% of the country has stagnated and the last bust that falls on your ideology's shoulders (and "trust the market only" gave us 2008) left us with 10% unemployment. :dry:

The fact remains that 1929 was the result of government intervention of the markets.

The government let banks gamble away money they didn't have like Chevy Chase in a bad Vegas movie? I thought it was Coolidge and his hands-off approach that oversaw the collapse of our economy while Hoover watched it unravel.

Hoover's solution was a proto-New Deal that was replaced by FDR's larger more disasterous New Deal which was expanded upon by LBJ's Great Society. It is programs like these (and the Republican Parties failure to destroy them, and willingness to add to them) that created 2008.

This is all sorts of wrong I don't know where to begin.

1) Hoover was not a proto-New Deal. That is asinine. He was the grandfather of the "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps." He let the economy implode because he thought it was better not to intervene as millions lost jobs. Kind of like what you would have done in 2008 I'd suspect if you were in power (thus leaving us open for Great Depression 2.0).

2) The Republican Party since 1980 has not been a party to expand social programs. They have tried to destroy them for the most part and deregulated the markets. It was the Dems (notably the Clinton Administration) who were complicit in this.

3) If you really are going to blame 2008 on "progressives" you have watched way too much Glenn Beck. It was conservative ideology of rmooving red tape from banks, the CFTC allowing for the first time in history Wall Street to speculate on agricultural commodities like it was a horse race, and leaving the derivative markets completely unregulated and handled in the dark, as well as the repeal of Glass-Steigal which had kept banks from becoming over 60% of our GDP by separating finance from investment...that led to this disaster. It was like the perfect storm. The perfect cluster**** of bad **** hitting the fan after 30 years of terrible "deregulate and let the markets decide" ideology.

!

Essentially the next few years should prove one of us right, right? It seems to me that you have an optimisitic look on the future of the American economy where as I think we are heading towards a Depression.

Without more stimulus and cutting government spending which made up 2/3 of GDP growth last year...I think you're right. And if that happens it will be 1937 all over again. But you can pretend otherwise and revise history again I'm sure.

A wise man, Stephen Colbert, once said we don't need facts. You can't trust facts. After all, facts have a well-documented liberal bias. I'm sure you would agree.
 
Please do not go down the road of ridiculous generalizations...

It is very difficult to be a Progressive without regarding the New Deal as successful requires an ignorance of history and economics. Furthermore for one to be a Progressive and to not believe that one's political philosophy is more similar to Mussolini than Thomas Jefferson's requires an ignorance of history and political science. Progressivism exists because FDR won WWII, it was that conflict and the aura of good feelings that surrounded it that hid the similarities between Progressivism and the other collectivist movements of the era: State Socialism, National Socialism, Communism and Nazism. Before the war (and before the Holocaust), the similarities were acknowledged.
 
Also, back then, Americans had to sacrifice for their government for us to win that war. Good luck asking Americans to sacrifice anything to win the war on terrorism.

I just remembered, Americans were asked to sacrifice our freedoms. So, nevermind.
 
It is very difficult to be a Progressive without regarding the New Deal as successful requires an ignorance of history and economics. Furthermore for one to be a Progressive and to not believe that one's political philosophy is more similar to Mussolini than Thomas Jefferson's requires an ignorance of history and political science. Progressivism exists because FDR won WWII, it was that conflict and the aura of good feelings that surrounded it that hid the similarities between Progressivism and the other collectivist movements of the era: State Socialism, National Socialism, Communism and Nazism. Before the war (and before the Holocaust), the similarities were acknowledged.

Again all this fro a guy who has argued that the Civil Rights Act had nothing to do with the South going Republican for the first time since Reconstruction in less than a decade and that massive government spending on WWII did not pull us out of Depression. Oh and it was the progressive agenda behind the 2008 crash.

Someone who says the Obama Administration is just like the Royal British Empire of 1775...except not. :doh:

So again I'll take you saying my history is misguided as a compliment. ;)

"Facts have a well documented liberal bias."

--Stephen Colbert
 
Lincoln should had no right to prevent secession

On a technical standpoint, it's a debateable viewpoint.

The United States was no longer a federation of automous states when it rejected the Articles of Confederation. But the government formed under the Constitution was still a federal republic where the states had a form of quasi-soverignity and the powers between the state and federal governments were strictly defined. Depending on how strong or how weak you view the Constitution was during that time period, you could make valid arguments for both sides of the secession argument.

However, since the actions of Lincoln and the Civil War, states rights have been given one big **** you after the other where the state and federal governments were no longer equals, but the federal government has been declared supreme.
 
Look what I just found searching on Amazon :facepalm:


61h3GQcPGsL._SS500_.jpg
 
The Stock Market is NOT remotely socialist because it's not the PUBLIC ownership of companies but PEOPLE owning shares of company. (see the difference?) Healthcare for veterans isn't "socialist" because veterans are government employees and, as such, are entitled to the benefits of employment. The military is a valid source of government employment because the only valid use of government is protection of rights - which should be the duty of the military.The government building roads and waterways is more socialist. Building roads at the Federal level is also Unconstitutional. 100% Capitalism is simply 100% Freedom

I don't mean "public" as a singular body I mean the general public can buy a piece of a company if they have the money.

In a 100% capitilist society militar services would be paid for by individuals and there would be Buck's Merrcenaries, Tommy's soldiers for Hire, Halliburton, The Expendables, etc...

Cpitalism is not 100% freedom it is money rules all screw the person who does not have it...
 
Oh no... a *gasp* coloring book! It's the end of the world! Run for the hills! :whatever:
 
It is very difficult to be a Progressive without regarding the New Deal as successful requires an ignorance of history and economics. Furthermore for one to be a Progressive and to not believe that one's political philosophy is more similar to Mussolini than Thomas Jefferson's requires an ignorance of history and political science. Progressivism exists because FDR won WWII, it was that conflict and the aura of good feelings that surrounded it that hid the similarities between Progressivism and the other collectivist movements of the era: State Socialism, National Socialism, Communism and Nazism. Before the war (and before the Holocaust), the similarities were acknowledged.
Progressivism existed and was gaining momentum before FDR ever went into office.
 
Someone who says the Obama Administration is just like the Royal British Empire of 1775...except not. :doh:
I never said that. In fact I went out of my way to say that it wasn't specifically an Obama Administration thing. That it was the sum of increasing Federal Government from both parties.
 
I don't mean "public" as a singular body I mean the general public can buy a piece of a company if they have the money.
In a 100% capitilist society militar services would be paid for by individuals and there would be Buck's Merrcenaries, Tommy's soldiers for Hire, Halliburton, The Expendables, etc...
No, in a 100% Libertarian Anarco-capitalist economy. Capitaism only applies to the existing markets.
Cpitalism is not 100% freedom it is money rules all screw the person who does not have it...

[/quote]By not providing them with services they have no right to? That's not screwing over the person without money, that's simply not sacrificing for him.
 
I never said that. In fact I went out of my way to say that it wasn't specifically an Obama Administration thing. That it was the sum of increasing Federal Government from both parties.

Okay, fair enough, you think the entire Federal government (even under the GOP) is like the British Empire of the 18th century. Fair enough. But you were vague in your declaration, here:

For the sake of the country, it better be.

I don't think Washington would have fought if he would have seen what the American government would eventually come. The government we have today is the same government they fought against in 1776.

You said that this election is equivalent to basically the eve of the Revolution and then say Washington would not have fought that war if he had seen the US today. I realize you backed tracked in another post saying the details are different, but I'm afraid you seriously argued that the Federal government of 2010 is so much like Britain that it would have convinced George Washington to not fight that war and we're as in dire a sate as in 1775, when Lexington and Concord happened. In fact you explicitly state it is the same government that caused the Declaration of Independence and the formation of the Continental Army in 1776--we were already at war by that point.
 
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