Do you hope the Initiative suceeds or fails?

[arachnid-guy]

WWH will be the first test the Initiative has. With WWH, we'll see if the initiative could work. And, if the MU has changed for the better.

I'm waiting to see what the result of WWH will be!

 

[Memphis Slim]

I hope it fails........

The whole idea of the Super-Hero or mystery man has been destoryed in the Marvel U. The idea of the "secret" is what makes them different from say other heroes. The public Not knowing who they are, not know when they would show up to save the day, is what makes the whole genre special. Can you imagine Batman caught up in something like this? I can't. It sucks that mysterious heroes like Spidey, Daredevil, even Ironman are outted.

The romanticized notion of a cat who can act above the law to catch the bad guy was just cool.

To be made to be part of a government strike force just takes a lot out of the this.

 

[3dman27]

i see your point slim

 

[Varient]

I expect a lot of heroes being hit hard by criminals that can now track them by the routines required by gov reg.


sigh.

 

[chris moore]

Kainedamo makes a good point about a cop getting thrown off the force for punching a drug dealer. A lot of the heroes work at street level and rarely have anything to do with major powered threats, just crooks with powers like shocker, or normal crooks with no powers or skills.

Given that - can Prodigy or Patriot be allowed to patrol streets and pound normal people for mugging little old ladies if they're working for SHIELD? Wouldnt that count as excessive force and therefore they shouldnt be allowed to do anymore harm to an individual than a police officer? That screws up making the little guy safer to walk the streets doesnt it?

Yay! The city is safe from cosmic bombardment and monsters! But unfortunately muggings and bank robberies have gone up 500% because all the heroes are only allowed to fight superpowered threats because their power levels even with training make it to dangerous for normal people to be thrown into a wall by them, or blasted with a neuroshock force beam!

 

[Alex Summers]

I don't care either way. Marvel is dead to me, anyway.

 

[Darthphere]

*slow clap*

Yet you found your way here.

 

[The Question]

Marvel's increasingly fascistic government patrolled by super-police in every state? It's a scary thought.

Under the SHRA, the superheroes have to follow the orders of the government. That means going to any war the government sends you to. And think about this. What if mutant levels rise again, and the superheroes are required to hunt down and arrest all mutants that won't comply with the SHRA? An incredibly fastistic society.

The Initiative should fail.

There's nothing fascist about the MU U.S. government. They're still a democracy, albiet a seemingly very conservative one, who are simply trying to enforce a law that actually makes alot of sense and simply making a huge mess out of it. They're not fascist or evil. At worst, they're just incompitant. At least in regards to enforcing the act.

That's true, Corpulent.

But lets face it. The fact that some superheroes act outside of the law is what makes them so effective. Cops have so much red tape in their way, they can never get as much done as, say, Daredevil. If a cop punched the crap out of a drug dealer, he'd probably be thrown out of the force. That kind of thing doesn't get in the way of Daredevil.

But to play devil's advocate, the simplest Pro-Reg arguement would be that not every wacko who puts on a costume and fights crime is going to be as succesful or sane as Daredevil. Odds are, as the high levels of vigilante activity in the MU rise even furthur, you're going to get plenty of idiots in body armor getting themselves or other people killed. Not passing a law that would stop a potential threat to public safety because there are people who are exceptions to the problem faced isn't very goof governing.

Also, while most of the street level heroes are effective, many of them were wanted criminals long before the act was ever passed.

 

[Memphis Slim]

Kainedamo makes a good point about a cop getting thrown off the force for punching a drug dealer. A lot of the heroes work at street level and rarely have anything to do with major powered threats, just crooks with powers like shocker, or normal crooks with no powers or skills.

Given that - can Prodigy or Patriot be allowed to patrol streets and pound normal people for mugging little old ladies if they're working for SHIELD? Wouldnt that count as excessive force and therefore they shouldnt be allowed to do anymore harm to an individual than a police officer? That screws up making the little guy safer to walk the streets doesnt it?

Yay! The city is safe from cosmic bombardment and monsters! But unfortunately muggings and bank robberies have gone up 500% because all the heroes are only allowed to fight superpowered threats because their power levels even with training make it to dangerous for normal people to be thrown into a wall by them, or blasted with a neuroshock force beam!

That is an absolutely brilliant observation...

 

[Eddie Brock]

I hope it fails........

The whole idea of the Super-Hero or mystery man has been destoryed in the Marvel U. The idea of the "secret" is what makes them different from say other heroes. The public Not knowing who they are, not know when they would show up to save the day, is what makes the whole genre special. Can you imagine Batman caught up in something like this? I can't. It sucks that mysterious heroes like Spidey, Daredevil, even Ironman are outted.

The romanticized notion of a cat who can act above the law to catch the bad guy was just cool.

To be made to be part of a government strike force just takes a lot out of the this.

That is an amazing point. I never saw it that way.

 

[The Overlord]

There's nothing fascist about the MU U.S. government. They're still a democracy, albiet a seemingly very conservative one, who are simply trying to enforce a law that actually makes alot of sense and simply making a huge mess out of it. They're not fascist or evil. At worst, they're just incompitant. At least in regards to enforcing the act.
.

The MU US government has become immoral, look at the past actions in regards to sHRA and the powers given the pro reg side. The government is willing to use psychopaths like Bullseye and Green Goblin to enforce this law, the fact that press gang tactics were used to recruit these guys and that the governemnt is using such individuals as agents shows that . Reed richards created a killer Thor clone who murders someone and the government does nothing to punish Stark or Richards. Plus the marvel US governemnt has not revealed the role damage Control played in the Stamford disaster, which smells like a cover up to me (especially since Damage Control had access to SHIELD weapons when wolverine confronted them.)

Notice how anti reg heroes were placed in a Negative Zone Prison (the n-Zone is one of the most dangerous places in the Marvel Universe) and denied the right to a trial. Super villains got trails when they are arrested, the US government treats super villains better than anti reg super heroes. Now the government is forcing heroes that have registered into their own private army, through a backdoor draft (which seems very unconsitutional to me). Look at Ares, he just wanted to raise his family, Stark brush aside his concerns and made him join the MA. stark and the US governemnt are more or less acting like a press gang. All have that means the Marvel US government is immoral and should not be trusted.

 

[The Question]

The MU US government has become immoral, look at the past actions in regards to sHRA and the powers given the pro reg side. The government is willing to use psychopaths like Bullseye and Green Goblin to enforce this law, the fact that press gang tactics were used to recruit these guys and that the governemnt is using such individuals as agents shows that . Reed richards created a killer Thor clone who murders someone and the government does nothing to punish Stark or Richards. Plus the marvel US governemnt has not revealed the role damage Control played in the Stamford disaster, which smells like a cover up to me (especially since Damage Control had access to SHIELD weapons when wolverine confronted them.)

Notice how anti reg heroes were placed in a Negative Zone Prison (the n-Zone is one of the most dangerous places in the Marvel Universe) and denied the right to a trial. Super villains got trails when they are arrested, the US government treats super villains better than anti reg super heroes. Now the government is forcing heroes that have registered into their own private army, through a backdoor draft (which seems very unconsitutional to me). Look at Ares, he just wanted to raise his family, Stark brush aside his concerns and made him join the MA. stark and the US governemnt are more or less acting like a press gang. All have that means the Marvel US government is immoral and should not be trusted.

1) That doesn't make them fascist by any streach of the imagination.

2) A government doing highly morally questionable things? Wow, the last time that's ever happened was with every other government that's ever existed. The government's willing to use psychopaths to enforce a law? It's called black ops. Sending stone cold killers to do the dirty jobs. A govenrment cover up is not new either. Governments are made up of two types of people: People who want to make their country a better place and make their people safer, and people who wnat money and/or power. And in some cases, both types of people are willing to do whatever their capable of within the law, and even outside of the law, to do just that. And honestly, the SHRA seems like a very moral thing to me. Super powered vigilantes working outside of the law are dangerous. There's no questioning that. And the government is trying to make sure that the American people can go to sleep without worrying about some yahoo with high tech gadgets blowing up their house. Are they handling the enforcement of the law badly? Of course. But that doesn't make them immoral. It makes them a flawed government who are trying to do the right thing but going about it badly. And that's government for you.

 

[The Overlord]

1) That doesn't make them fascist by any streach of the imagination.

2) A government doing highly morally questionable things? Wow, the last time that's ever happened was with every other government that's ever existed. The government's willing to use psychopaths to enforce a law? It's called black ops. Sending stone cold killers to do the dirty jobs. A govenrment cover up is not new either. Governments are made up of two types of people: People who want to make their country a better place and make their people safer, and people who wnat money and/or power. And in some cases, both types of people are willing to do whatever their capable of within the law, and even outside of the law, to do just that. And honestly, the SHRA seems like a very moral thing to me. Super powered vigilantes working outside of the law are dangerous. There's no questioning that. And the government is trying to make sure that the American people can go to sleep without worrying about some yahoo with high tech gadgets blowing up their house. Are they handling the enforcement of the law badly? Of course. But that doesn't make them immoral. It makes them a flawed government who are trying to do the right thing but going about it badly. And that's government for you.

In theory the SHRA is not a not bad idea, but it has all these insane things that have tacked on it, that make it immoral and insane. Super heroes (American citizens) being held without trail for breaking this law in a prison in the N-Zone (one of the most dangerous places in the Marvel Universe), that's immoral and unconstituational. The backdoor draft added to the SHRA seems unconstitional as well, people like Wonder Man (CW Frontline 11) and Ares (MA 1) can ber drafted into any cause Stark believes is right. ares for example just wanted to work his job and raise his kids, but Tony brushed asides his feelings and drafted him into the MA. How is any of this constituational? This is why Spider-Man switched sides.

Let's not forget the personal sins of Tony Stark himself, he used the Green Goblin to try and assassinate the Atlantean ambassador, with hopes that would create a war between Atlantis and the surface world, convincing the super heroes to unite and register so they could deal with this threat. That is why I want the Initiative to fail, Tony stark has made too many immoral decisions to get where he is and doesn't deserve the power he has now.he has become an out of control egomanic and needs to be taught a lesson is humility. Stark deserves to have immoral decision he made come back to haunt him, to have his mistakes cost him his victory. That would be poetic justice.

 

[The Overlord]

1) That doesn't make them fascist by any streach of the imagination.

2) A government doing highly morally questionable things? Wow, the last time that's ever happened was with every other government that's ever existed. The government's willing to use psychopaths to enforce a law? It's called black ops. Sending stone cold killers to do the dirty jobs. A govenrment cover up is not new either. Governments are made up of two types of people: People who want to make their country a better place and make their people safer, and people who wnat money and/or power. And in some cases, both types of people are willing to do whatever their capable of within the law, and even outside of the law, to do just that. And honestly, the SHRA seems like a very moral thing to me. Super powered vigilantes working outside of the law are dangerous. There's no questioning that. And the government is trying to make sure that the American people can go to sleep without worrying about some yahoo with high tech gadgets blowing up their house. Are they handling the enforcement of the law badly? Of course. But that doesn't make them immoral. It makes them a flawed government who are trying to do the right thing but going about it badly. And that's government for you.

In theory the SHRA is not a not bad idea, but it has all these insane things that have tacked on it, that make it immoral and insane. Super heroes (American citizens) being held without trail for breaking this law in a prison in the N-Zone (one of the most dangerous places in the Marvel Universe), that's immoral and unconstituational. The backdoor draft added to the SHRA seems unconstitional as well, people like Wonder Man (CW Frontline 11) and Ares (MA 1) can ber drafted into any cause Stark believes is right. ares for example just wanted to work his job and raise his kids, but Tony brushed asides his feelings and drafted him into the MA. How is any of this constituational? This is why Spider-Man switched sides.

Let's not forget the personal sins of Tony Stark himself, he used the Green Goblin to try and assassinate the Atlantean ambassador, with hopes that would create a war between Atlantis and the surface world, convincing the super heroes to unite and register so they could deal with this threat. That is why I want the Initiative to fail, Tony stark has made too many immoral decisions to get where he is and doesn't deserve the power he has now.he has become an out of control egomanic and needs to be taught a lesson is humility. Stark deserves to have every immoral decision he made come back to haunt him, to have his mistakes cost him his victory. That would be poetic justice.

 

[BrianWilly]

I don't understand how it's somehow okay for the MU government to immoral just because every government is immoral anyway. I mean, I wouldn't support our real world government if they pulled some of the sht that the MU government did.

In fact, I know that our real world government does pull some of the sht that the MU government does, and I don't support them in that. The...casual adherence to the Constitution and due process, for one thing. The trigger-happy internment and persecution of an entire subset of people justified by "wartime precautions," for another.

And even our government doesn't let its murderers and rapists and psychotics out to walk in our streets in broad daylight without having proven their rehabilitation.

No, the Initiative isn't such a bad idea, in theory. The scope of it, the implementation, the specific reason it got implemented...those were all pretty bad ideas.

 

[The Question]

In theory the SHRA is not a not bad idea, but it has all these insane things that have tacked on it, that make it immoral and insane.

I wouldn't say immoral. Honestly, I think the best word for how the act is being inforced is incompitant. The government is facing a nationwide problem, but they're reacting in a very knee jerk, idiotic way. Truthfully, it makes little sense. There's no real reason for them to be doing alot of the **** they're doing. Realistically, I blame it on Joey Q and Mark Millar for wanting to do another "Heroes VS. big evil government" story. However, if I'm going to go for the No-Prize, I'd say that the reason for what they're doing isn't that they're evil. They're just facing a major crisis and honestly don't know how to deal.

Super heroes (American citizens) being held without trail for breaking this law in a prison in the N-Zone (one of the most dangerous places in the Marvel Universe), that's immoral and unconstituational.

Who's to say, once the Civil War is over, they won't get a trial? In fact, Cap was sniped walking out of a courthouse after getting arraigned for what he did during CW.

The backdoor draft added to the SHRA seems unconstitional as well, people like Wonder Man (CW Frontline 11) and Ares (MA 1) can ber drafted into any cause Stark believes is right. ares for example just wanted to work his job and raise his kids, but Tony brushed asides his feelings and drafted him into the MA. How is any of this constituational? This is why Spider-Man switched sides.

That isn't a backdoor draft. A backdoor fraft is when the military holds troops in active service longer than they're contractually agreed upon time to serve in active duty. That right there just sounds like a regular draft, albiet on an individual basis. And that, while rare, isn't technically illegal. The most illegal thing about that, really, is that Ares should technicaly be exempt from the draft, being that he's well over 45. But I guess in the MU< they make an exception for superhumans.

Let's not forget the personal sins of Tony Stark himself, he used the Green Goblin to try and assassinate the Atlantean ambassador, with hopes that would create a war between Atlantis and the surface world, convincing the super heroes to unite and register so they could deal with this threat.

Now, I'd stopped reading CW. Didn't know that. That is pretty dirk dastardly. But I chalk most of the ******* things Tony does and the stupid things Stever does in CW to bad writing.

That is why I want the Initiative to fail, Tony stark has made too many immoral decisions to get where he is and doesn't deserve the power he has now.he has become an out of control egomanic and needs to be taught a lesson is humility. Stark deserves to have every immoral decision he made come back to haunt him, to have his mistakes cost him his victory. That would be poetic justice.

But the Initiative is a good idea that would help the America of the MU enormously. Instead of having one of the few good outcomes to Civil War come crashing down because of all the bad, how's about the bad just gets resolved on it's own? Tony did some bad stuff to get where he is. Instead of punishing him for it, why not have him make up for it with the Initiative?

I don't understand how it's somehow okay for the MU government to immoral just because every government is immoral anyway.

I'm not saying it's okay. I'm just saying that nobody should be surprised by it.

 

[The Overlord]

I wouldn't say immoral. Honestly, I think the best word for how the act is being inforced is incompitant. The government is facing a nationwide problem, but they're reacting in a very knee jerk, idiotic way. Truthfully, it makes little sense. There's no real reason for them to be doing alot of the **** they're doing. Realistically, I blame it on Joey Q and Mark Millar for wanting to do another "Heroes VS. big evil government" story. However, if I'm going to go for the No-Prize, I'd say that the reason for what they're doing isn't that they're evil. They're just facing a major crisis and honestly don't know how to deal.

I disagree, the MU government is behaving in a immoral and irrational manner, look at the latest issue of Thunderbolts. The government sent the T-bolts (a team made up mostly of dangerous psychopaths) to capture anti reg hero Jack Flag. During this battle, Bullseye willfully cripes Flag. How is not immoral, the government is hiring serial killers (Bullseye killing all of those nuns at the start of DD vol 2, makes him a serial killer) to enforce this law, the only crime Flag commited was not registering and the government sends a team of psychopaths after him and surprise, one of them gets out of control and criples him. How is that moral or even sane on any level?

Who's to say, once the Civil War is over, they won't get a trial? In fact, Cap was sniped walking out of a courthouse after getting arraigned for what he did during CW.

Why couldn't they get a trail during the CW. One of the rights as an American citizen, is the right to a speedy trial and the fact that most heroes are American citizens means that this law is unconstituational. Seriously mass murdering super villains are allowed to have trails, but anti reg heroes are not? That's immoral and insane.

That isn't a backdoor draft. A backdoor fraft is when the military holds troops in active service longer than they're contractually agreed upon time to serve in active duty. That right there just sounds like a regular draft, albiet on an individual basis. And that, while rare, isn't technically illegal. The most illegal thing about that, really, is that Ares should technicaly be exempt from the draft, being that he's well over 45. But I guess in the MU< they make an exception for superhumans.

That's the problem with the SHRA right there, its a law that is vague, overeaching and needlessly draconian. At first Marvel said the SHRA would just involve heroes registering their ID with the government and perhaps getting some training. Now its said the law gives the governemnt the right to draft super heroes into whether cause they wish. Marvel keeps on changing what the law is supposed to be about. A half competant consitiuational lawyer could have this law struck down in a second.

Now, I'd stopped reading CW. Didn't know that. That is pretty dirk dastardly. But I chalk most of the ******* things Tony does and the stupid things Stever does in CW to bad writing.

Cap only come off as misguided and irrational, but still had his heart in the right place, Tony came as a completely corrupt egomaniac. Which character comes off as worse?

But the Initiative is a good idea that would help the America of the MU enormously. Instead of having one of the few good outcomes to Civil War come crashing down because of all the bad, how's about the bad just gets resolved on it's own? Tony did some bad stuff to get where he is. Instead of punishing him for it, why not have him make up for it with the Initiative?

Why not? Well first of all I simply don't like this status quo, that's one reason. Why should I support something I don't like? You think its a good idea, but I don't.

Seond, ever heard of krama? Stark has a lot of bad krama on his head and its only fair that it come back to haunt him. If Stark used immoral actions to gain this power, why wouldn't he contiue making immoral decisions to maintain it? Why should Stark be rewarded with sucess for his imoral behaviour? Its only fair that Stark's bad krama come back to haunt him, to do otherwise is to reward immorality and I simply don't agree with that.

 

[The Question]

I disagree, the MU government is behaving in a immoral and irrational manner, look at the latest issue of Thunderbolts. The government sent the T-bolts (a team made up mostly of dangerous psychopaths) to capture anti reg hero Jack Flag. During this battle, Bullseye willfully cripes Flag. How is not immoral, the government is hiring serial killers (Bullseye killing all of those nuns at the start of DD vol 2, makes him a serial killer) to enforce this law, the only crime Flag commited was not registering and the government sends a team of psychopaths after him and surprise, one of them gets out of control and criples him. How is that moral or even sane on any level?

Technically, Bullseye killing the nuns makes him a mass murderer. Not really arguing, just saying.

Anyway, that doesn't make me thing they're immoral (and honestly, the more you use the word, the more meaningless it seems), it makes me think that they're desperate. They're trying to contain the situation and are severely understaffed in doing so. Here comes Zemo with his big plan to use criminals drafted into service to help the manpower issue. They jump at it because it seems like the best option at the time.

Why couldn't they get a trail during the CW. One of the rights as an American citizen, is the right to a speedy trial and the fact that most heroes are American citizens means that this law is unconstituational. Seriously mass murdering super villains are allowed to have trails, but anti reg heroes are not? That's immoral and insane.

The anti-regs were busting people out of prisons and police transfers. What's to stop them from breaking into a courthouse and busting out the person on trial? It seems like a rather logical precausionary measure. Besides, who's to say that they weren't having trials? As I said, Cap was getting arraigned in the issue where he was shot, so trials are obviously happening. Could be that the heroes were being held in the Negative Zone pending trial.

That's the problem with the SHRA right there, its a law that is vague, overeaching and needlessly draconian. At first Marvel said the SHRA would just involve heroes registering their ID with the government and perhaps getting some training. Now its said the law gives the governemnt the right to draft super heroes into whether cause they wish. Marvel keeps on changing what the law is supposed to be about. A half competant consitiuational lawyer could have this law struck down in a second.

Tony trafting Ares and Wonder Man seems to have little to do with the SHRA. Seems to me that it simply was a draft, plain and simple. Ares and Wonder Man were both legal American citizens. Tony, on behalf of the government, drafted them into service of their country as the government saw fit to use them. While it may be rare and underhanded, it's not illegal.

Cap only come off as misguided and irrational, but still had his heart in the right place, Tony came as a completely corrupt egomaniac. Which character comes off as worse?

I don't think Tony was corrupt or self centered during CW. And I think both were equally damaged.

Why not? Well first of all I simply don't like this status quo, that's one reason. Why should I support something I don't like? You think its a good idea, but I don't.

I think it's a great idea. It's one of the few instances in comics in recent years where a big change to the status quo is actually a not half bad idea. There's no real problems with the Initiative, and heroes who were already outside of the law like Daredevil and Spider-Man shouldn't be effected too much.

Seond, ever heard of krama?

No, I haven't.

Stark has a lot of bad krama on his head and its only fair that it come back to haunt him.

Him. Yes. Not the rest of the country. And that's who'd be hurt if the initiative collapses.

If Stark used immoral actions to gain this power, why wouldn't he contiue making immoral decisions to maintain it?

Because none of this was about him gaining power. It was about making the country safer. Agree with his actions or not, his goals were not self centered in this.

Why should Stark be rewarded with sucess for his imoral behaviour? Its only fair that Stark's bad krama come back to haunt him, to do otherwise is to reward immorality and I simply don't agree with that.

People get rewarded for ******* behaivore infinitely worse than Tony's all the time. Him being "rewarded" with the responsibility of coordinating a country wide peace keeping orginization made up entirely of superhumans looks tame by comparison. And it really doesn't seem like much of a reward. It seems like a pretty *****y job, actually.

 

[Darthphere]

Kainedamo makes a good point about a cop getting thrown off the force for punching a drug dealer. A lot of the heroes work at street level and rarely have anything to do with major powered threats, just crooks with powers like shocker, or normal crooks with no powers or skills.

Given that - can Prodigy or Patriot be allowed to patrol streets and pound normal people for mugging little old ladies if they're working for SHIELD? Wouldnt that count as excessive force and therefore they shouldnt be allowed to do anymore harm to an individual than a police officer? That screws up making the little guy safer to walk the streets doesnt it?

Yay! The city is safe from cosmic bombardment and monsters! But unfortunately muggings and bank robberies have gone up 500% because all the heroes are only allowed to fight superpowered threats because their power levels even with training make it to dangerous for normal people to be thrown into a wall by them, or blasted with a neuroshock force beam!

Considering its apparently ok for Bullseye to paralyze someone, I dont see the problem.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Totally. James Bond worked for the government and he had a license to frickin' kill, remember?

 

[Dread]

I've of the mind that CIVIL WAR had some good ideas, they simply were executed in shoddy ways because:

1). The story became an "event" and that meant there had to be extentions, added fluff, added shocks, and so on

2). I feel the editors undermined the story by attempting to mislead the readers, which resulted in a lot of the "Fascist Pro-SHRA" stuff. The editorial staff wanted us to root for the anti's and then THROW us with the ending. But the way they went about it was crude, and loaded the deck into the "Pro's are Nazi's" arguements. It's not the only example of Marvel making things harder then they have to be, but a recent one.

That all said, THE INITIATIVE isn't a bad idea in theory. I've lamented for ages how superheroes were unevenly distributed across the nation beforehand, limited to 93% in NY, maybe 5% in CA, and the rest in various other random cities at times, like Chicago or Milwaukee. The feds wanting to have at least one team in every state as well as in allied nations like Canada is a fine idea. It simply is a shame that in the wake of CW, the SHRA wasn't toned down a tad so it became more of a willing affair. Punishing people for what they MIGHT do, but haven't, is un-American, and goes against the "innocent until proven guilty" mindset.

CW is over and we're left with the aftermath, but THE INITIATIVE may not be so bad. Such a shame the prior missteps make it smell worse than it is.

 

[Dread]

Totally. James Bond worked for the government and he had a license to frickin' kill, remember?

James Bond doesn't maim innocent or otherwise "good" people. He kills villians or thugs of villians. He's not Bullseye, who yucks it up about one day overcoming his masters and crippling superheroes. He's not Venom who is held back from cannibilizm by the shortest of leashes, or the perennially insane Green Goblin.

Of course, 616 Marvel's gov't handing badges to any villian who want to be their paid hitman/lapdog is nothing new, stretching as far back as Freedom Force in the 80's.

 

[chris moore]

Bullseye and the Thunderbolts are under the jurisdiction of the CSA - a little insurance policy should Iron Man start throwing around his new senate given power over all registered superheroes and the united nations peace keeping mega army/spy network.

Of course that little tidbit only came out once Marvel realised that having Tony and Reed put together the Thunderbolts as depicted in CW#4 was an insane idea and only served to sludge their characters and their right to "win" the war even further.

 

[The Overlord]

Technically, Bullseye killing the nuns makes him a mass murderer. Not really arguing, just saying.

Anyway, that doesn't make me thing they're immoral (and honestly, the more you use the word, the more meaningless it seems), it makes me think that they're desperate. They're trying to contain the situation and are severely understaffed in doing so. Here comes Zemo with his big plan to use criminals drafted into service to help the manpower issue. They jump at it because it seems like the best option at the time.

.

I will use the word immoral as much I was want, because it is the word that fits. If you don't like it, tell someone who cares.

The CW is over now and they are still using psychos like Bullseye and Gobby as agents, are they still desperate? Besides can prove that Jack Flag is any sort of public threat or even a threat worse then Bullseye, a mass murdering psycho that the government is allowing to be their agent. If the psychos from the T-bolts ever get off their leashs, seems like unregistered heroes won't that a big deal in comparsion. This whole new T-bolt thing looks like the kinda thing that will blow up in the government's face in the long run. Besides is anyone inthe government going to punished because Bullseye criped Jack or does the MU US government not believe in accountiblity?

The anti-regs were busting people out of prisons and police transfers. What's to stop them from breaking into a courthouse and busting out the person on trial? It seems like a rather logical precausionary measure. Besides, who's to say that they weren't having trials? As I said, Cap was getting arraigned in the issue where he was shot, so trials are obviously happening. Could be that the heroes were being held in the Negative Zone pending trial.

So what, super villains escape from prison all the time and they still get trials (it was stated in CW that the heroes will be held without trial, until the CW is over). Why does the constitution apply to super villains and not super heroes? Besides why is the prison in the Negative Zone, one of the most dangerous places in MU, ruled by a genocidal tyrant who would have wiped the prison out, if he had not been busy elsewhere. It was said in CW that some of the inmates of the 42 commited suicide because the N-Zone was such a terrible place. How is the 42 constitutional or moral on any level?

Tony trafting Ares and Wonder Man seems to have little to do with the SHRA. Seems to me that it simply was a draft, plain and simple. Ares and Wonder Man were both legal American citizens. Tony, on behalf of the government, drafted them into service of their country as the government saw fit to use them. While it may be rare and underhanded, it's not illegal.

Wanna bet this draft could not have created, if heroes didn't register in the first place. This is why Cap oppossed the SHRA in the first place, because he was afraid that the government would use it as an excuse to turn heroes into their own private goon squad. Looks like cap was right to be afriad.

I don't think Tony was corrupt or self centered during CW. And I think both were equally damaged.

Then why is giving himself all the power and control: leadership over SHIELD, the Avengers, all the new hero groups, etc.

I think it's a great idea. It's one of the few instances in comics in recent years where a big change to the status quo is actually a not half bad idea. There's no real problems with the Initiative, and heroes who were already outside of the law like Daredevil and Spider-Man shouldn't be effected too much.

You think its a great idea, good for you, I don't care. I think its a bad idea, I don't like it and because I don't like it, I won't support it and I it hope it crashes and burns.

No, I haven't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma

Him. Yes. Not the rest of the country. And that's who'd be hurt if the initiative collapses.

Unless Stark turns himself in and accepts responsiblity for his actions, the whole program is tainted. Beesides I think super villains forcing the Initiative to crash into the ground would make a great story.

Because none of this was about him gaining power. It was about making the country safer. Agree with his actions or not, his goals were not self centered in this.

Notice how Stark has all the power and control though and gets glorify his ego in the process. Example he commished a new helicarrier (to match his own colour scheme) and gave Stark Enterprises the contract to do it. How is that not selfish?

People get rewarded for ******* behaivore infinitely worse than Tony's all the time. Him being "rewarded" with the responsibility of coordinating a country wide peace keeping orginization made up entirely of superhumans looks tame by comparison. And it really doesn't seem like much of a reward. It seems like a pretty *****y job, actually.

Its great job for a control freak like Stark, who gets to give his company a bunch of no bid contracts. Besides this isn't real lfe, it is escapist fiction, different rules and all. I think it would be better in terms of story telling terms if Stark was forced to pay for his crimes.

 

[The Geek Vault]

Taskmaster I bet could break the system. But I do think it's an interesting concept and adds to realism of the books. Although I hope eventually it goes away because it would get old.