Do you hope the Initiative suceeds or fails?

[The Question]

The CW is over now and they are still using psychos like Bullseye and Gobby as agents, are they still desperate?

Some pretty ****ed up individuals have worked for several governments before. It's not new news. And like I said, they were low on manpower and power in general. And the government is notorious for making temporary solutions permanent ones because they're cheap. And really, having people like Bullseye and Osborn working for them is not the worst thing they could do.

Besides can prove that Jack Flag is any sort of public threat or even a threat worse then Bullseye, a mass murdering psycho that the government is allowing to be their agent. If the psychos from the T-bolts ever get off their leashs, seems like unregistered heroes won't that a big deal in comparsion. This whole new T-bolt thing looks like the kinda thing that will blow up in the government's face in the long run. Besides is anyone inthe government going to punished because Bullseye criped Jack or does the MU US government not believe in accountiblity?

Honestly, I don't know. More likely, since they still probably need the likes of Bullseye, they'll simply sweep the whole thing under the rug. Is that the pure, moral stance to take? Hardly. But I don't think it makes them evil.

So what, super villains escape from prison all the time and they still get trials (it was stated in CW that the heroes will be held without trial, until the CW is over). Why does the constitution apply to super villains and not super heroes?

Not comperable. The villains escaping from prison were unrelated incidents. The Anti-Regs were actively busting people out of jail. A normal trial would have undobubtebly resulted in a big ****ing fight in a courthouse. Holding off their trails until all of them were arrested was the government being practical and safe, not immoral.

Besides why is the prison in the Negative Zone, one of the most dangerous places in MU, ruled by a genocidal tyrant who would have wiped the prison out, if he had not been busy elsewhere. It was said in CW that some of the inmates of the 42 commited suicide because the N-Zone was such a terrible place. How is the 42 constitutional or moral on any level?

People commit suicide in regular prison. That doesn't mean it's unconstitutional or immoral. It just means that prison life sucks, which is a given. 42 itself isn't grounds for a moral or legal arguement against the pro-regs. The suspentions of trials until everything was sorted out is, although it's obvious that they have begun to hold trials, so I see that as a non-issue.

Also, we don't know what the security measures in 42 are. They could be well gaurded against the N-Zone natives. Plus, the N-Zone is a universe unto itself. Big place. Plenty of room.

Wanna bet this draft could not have created, if heroes didn't register in the first place. This is why Cap oppossed the SHRA in the first place, because he was afraid that the government would use it as an excuse to turn heroes into their own private goon squad. Looks like cap was right to be afriad.

Wonder Man didn't have a secret identity, and Ares' alias was pretty much comrpomised when he had a shoot out with the cops. Their being drafted may have happened in response to Civil War, but they could have happened without the Act.

Then why is giving himself all the power and control: leadership over SHIELD, the Avengers, all the new hero groups, etc.

One must be apointed to being director of SHEILD. And I do believe he was also apointed head of the Initiative and the Avengers. He didn't give himself that power. He couldn't. He lacks the authority to.

You think its a great idea, good for you, I don't care. I think its a bad idea, I don't like it and because I don't like it, I won't support it and I it hope it crashes and burns.

Why?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma

I know what Karma is. You just kept calling it "krama."

Unless Stark turns himself in and accepts responsiblity for his actions, the whole program is tainted.

How? They'd still be doing good and making up for the mishandling of Civil War. You can't call for the dissilution of an entire government program that greatly helps the country just because one of the higher ups involved is a dick.

Beesides I think super villains forcing the Initiative to crash into the ground would make a great story.

I don't. It would basically return everything to the old status quo. And I especially hate it when that sort of thing happens.

Notice how Stark has all the power and control though and gets glorify his ego in the process. Example he commished a new helicarrier (to match his own colour scheme) and gave Stark Enterprises the contract to do it. How is that not selfish?

So you're telling me that his entire part in Civil War was to give the hellicarrier a color scheme he liked and to make money? Bull****, I say. He was genuinely trying to do the right thing. He wanted to make America safer. It wasn't about gaining power of wealth. None of his actions or words ever suggest that. He may have handled it poorly, and may have been a dick about it, but he was trying to do the right thing. The color thing is purely asthetic. And having his own company build it was just him making sure it was done by people he felt were the best.

Its great job for a control freak like Stark, who gets to give his company a bunch of no bid contracts. Besides this isn't real lfe, it is escapist fiction, different rules and all. I think it would be better in terms of story telling terms if Stark was forced to pay for his crimes.

And I think it would be cliche, juvinile, and completely illogical. Stark's crimes are nowhere near bad enough to justify getting rid of something that actually helps innocent people. Stark can pay if you want, but the Initiative doesn't have crash and burn with him.

 

[The Overlord]

Some pretty ****ed up individuals have worked for several governments before. It's not new news. And like I said, they were low on manpower and power in general. And the government is notorious for making temporary solutions permanent ones because they're cheap. And really, having people like Bullseye and Osborn working for them is not the worst thing they could do.

When is the last time the real government used someone who killed a dosen nuns as an agent?

Honestly, I don't know. More likely, since they still probably need the likes of Bullseye, they'll simply sweep the whole thing under the rug. Is that the pure, moral stance to take? Hardly. But I don't think it makes them evil.

Exactly why do they need guys like Gobby and Bullseye on the payroll, now that the CW is over?

Not comperable. The villains escaping from prison were unrelated incidents. The Anti-Regs were actively busting people out of jail. A normal trial would have undobubtebly resulted in a big ****ing fight in a courthouse. Holding off their trails until all of them were arrested was the government being practical and safe, not immoral.

The Serpent Society was a gang of villains that would break out members that were imprisoned (their first leader sidewinder was a teleporter) and their members still had trials. Why the double standard?

People commit suicide in regular prison. That doesn't mean it's unconstitutional or immoral. It just means that prison life sucks, which is a given. 42 itself isn't grounds for a moral or legal arguement against the pro-regs. The suspentions of trials until everything was sorted out is, although it's obvious that they have begun to hold trials, so I see that as a non-issue.

First exactly how are anti reg heroes comparable to the rapists and murders you find in a real prison? Second how is putting anti reg heroes in the worst place in MU a fitting punish for their crime?

Also, we don't know what the security measures in 42 are. They could be well gaurded against the N-Zone natives. Plus, the N-Zone is a universe unto itself. Big place. Plenty of room.

Have you been keeping up with Annihilation? Is there anything in the 42 that coulld stop the Annihilation wave? Plus Annihilus has a huge army that controls most of the N-Zone, why do you think the FF keep on bumping into him whenever they go to the N-Zone?

Wonder Man didn't have a secret identity, and Ares' alias was pretty much comrpomised when he had a shoot out with the cops. Their being drafted may have happened in response to Civil War, but they could have happened without the Act.

Wanna bet all these registered heroes will drafted into whatever cause the government deems worthy. Looks like Cap's fears were right.

One must be apointed to being director of SHEILD. And I do believe he was also apointed head of the Initiative and the Avengers. He didn't give himself that power. He couldn't. He lacks the authority to.

Wanna bet he used his corporate ties and political capital from the CW to get that position from the governemnt?

Why?

Why not? Seriously though I don't like how this new status quo was created and frankly in the long run I think it will limit story telling potenial.

I know what Karma is. You just kept calling it "krama."

I made a typo, sue me.

How? They'd still be doing good and making up for the mishandling of Civil War. You can't call for the dissilution of an entire government program that greatly helps the country just because one of the higher ups involved is a dick.

If Stark was willing to use immoral tactics to gain this power, why wouldn't use immoral tactics to keep it?

I don't. It would basically return everything to the old status quo. And I especially hate it when that sort of thing happens.

Great for you, I don't care. This new status quo sucks, burn it.

So you're telling me that his entire part in Civil War was to give the hellicarrier a color scheme he liked and to make money? Bull****, I say. He was genuinely trying to do the right thing. He wanted to make America safer. It wasn't about gaining power of wealth. None of his actions or words ever suggest that. He may have handled it poorly, and may have been a dick about it, but he was trying to do the right thing. The color thing is purely asthetic. And having his own company build it was just him making sure it was done by people he felt were the best.

He has more than goal, "help" the country, increase the scope of his own power and why not make a buck or two on the side. Besides even if Tony isn't selfish that merely renders hiim an ideological fanatic who will use any tactic he sees fit to do whatever he deems right. In CW 11, he was willing to use create a war with Namor, so that fear of that war will convince heroes to register. He is using fear to forcible promote a political policy. Why is that different from a terrorist

And I think it would be cliche, juvinile, and completely illogical. Stark's crimes are nowhere near bad enough to justify getting rid of something that actually helps innocent people. Stark can pay if you want, but the Initiative doesn't have crash and burn with him.

You know we are talking about fictional characters, not real people. Besides have the Initiative crash and burn would be exciting IMO, because all this CW related stories were a total bore (I'm sick of heroes fighting eachother).

 

[Artistsean]

The idea of a huge team of super hero agents is too good not to use.
Its like in cartoons or comics when the villian says I am going to use this mutating goo to change the heroes into evil versions of themselves. I always thought, "cool, I want to see what thats like." But then the hero stopped him before he had a chance.

So I would like to see what the initiative is like, for a short time though. Not a year or two. well, Maybe a year at the most.

 

[Colossal Spoons]

i like the idea of superheroes in every state but i'rather it be by THIER choice not by federal mandate

Co-sign

 

[Colossal Spoons]

Essay time!

 

[Artistsean]

Wouldn't it suck though to be re assigned to a different state? I mean you live in New York all your life and then boom you are moved to a new state. You'd have to make new friends.
Imagine what it would be like for the child of a super hero who is re assigned.
Like a military family who constantly has to move.
I wonder if they are going to show that.

 

[Colossal Spoons]

Maybe in the Initiave ongoing.

 

[chris moore]

Could the Question and Overlord stop doing those posts where you argue point by point in your replies? Makes for a very ranting and incredibly long read and causes a lot of other people to lose interest cos they end up scrolling through what they/I can only assume is a one on one debate/*****ing session.

 

[3dman27]

tony'd better be careful ar he'll become if he HASENT already the biggest control freak in comics this side of BATMAN

 

[BrianWilly]

Yeah guys, stop talking on-topic or something.

 

[Memphis Slim]

tony'd better be careful ar he'll become if he HASENT already the biggest control freak in comics this side of BATMAN

Become?? He already is.

 

[The Question]

Could the Question and Overlord stop doing those posts where you argue point by point in your replies? Makes for a very ranting and incredibly long read and causes a lot of other people to lose interest cos they end up scrolling through what they/I can only assume is a one on one debate/*****ing session.

Sorry. I really should stop even saying anything to Overlord. We never agree on anything.

 

[The Overlord]

Could the Question and Overlord stop doing those posts where you argue point by point in your replies? Makes for a very ranting and incredibly long read and causes a lot of other people to lose interest cos they end up scrolling through what they/I can only assume is a one on one debate/*****ing session.

Alright, sorry.

 

[chris moore]

I think thats where it got out of hand - nothing to agree on, so every point had to be countered by the other just for arguements sake

Ultimately the Initiative is a good idea, the SHRA is a good idea. But it became a vague concept that in order to give definitive "villainise the pro-reg" (because the SHRA is so outside of what the MU has ever been about that why wouldnt fans root for the anti-reg) it had to have some steadfast rules to it that made it seem even more evil that just telling SHIELD who you are (as if they didnt know already) and having your powers eveluated for insurance and legal purposes.
And therefore everything came about involving being forced to work for SHEILD when you do register, and being forced to work in whatever team they assign you to; and violation of any of the above resulting in imprisonment in initially 42, then Rykers.

It was a last minute change to make 42 the supervillain prison being used only for unregistered heroes without trial for the duration of the war. It was too "at the end and therefore youve seen fan reaction and panicked" for Tony to say 42 was never intended to be a hero prison but was the safest place for them during the conflict and that they would all be eventually tried and moved to Rykers.

It was last minute to say all registered heroes (and villains when required) would be drafted into SHIELD and Initiative sevrice following registration and evaluation - prior to like, CW#3 it was stated in no uncertain terms that heroes could continue to operate independantly after evaluation, training and licencing, but could work for SHIELD with a paycheck if they wished. That made the SHRA make just too much darn sense to even the hardcore fans so be anything than with it, which was not the point as we're supposed to root for Cap, but expect Tony to win. Not see its a good idea and not get why Cap's fighting then be satisfied that Tony wins.