Do you still consider the TV shows canon?

[ironwez20]

Once again, I just don't agree with this notion. There are plenty of in universe reasons that make sense. This is a baseless argument to me rooted in disappointment. Again, y'all do you. People are free to disagree, but I call them as I see them.

Short of an actual reboot being done, my view on this won't change. But I know if we get say Charlie Cox is a movie, people well try and act like it's a different Daredevil.

I don’t understand how or why u think it’s a baseless argument but ok if you think so. It makes perfect sense for people to think it’s a different universe but ok then. Nobody is disappointed just putting two and two together

 

[CommanderShep]

I thought I was clear here, but to reiterate what I basically see is people are disappointed and angry they never saw the TV characters from Netflix and such pop up in a movie, and that disappointment evolves into denial and rejection. So people don't except them as cannon because they never got their favorite toy when they wanted it. But, like I said in another post, absence is not proof. They just simply weren't there. It can be for 100 reasons within the logic of Marvel.

To be honest the one who seems to be in denial is you. Marvel Studios is well-known for it's connectivity and has gone THE EXTRA MILE in referencing every single one of their 23 movies including TIH which was kinda the black sheep and had it's main act. Their entire hook is easter eggs, callbacks, winks towards the audience and referencing their other movies to reinforce the sense of a shared universe. That includes Agent Carter which had various MS people involved (Feige, D'Esposito, Markus and Mcfeely, Eeric Perason, Anthony Russo) and the D+ which Feige confirmed they will have their character appear in film.


So, you are trying to tell me that same studio who is all about acknowledgement and connectivity couldnt bother to put a line of dialogue acknowledging Daredevil or Jessica Jones? ONE LINE OF DIALOGUE over 6 years and a dozen of movies. Not a cameo, a single line of dialogue. And you are trying to convince people this means nothing? Feige is going the extra mile to acknowledging EVERYTHING he has produced and the shows that he had nothing to do with aren't even getting a reference. And this is supposed to be a coincidence? It's very clear from it's stance and from insiders like u/sorryeveryonemybad who works for MS that Feige and his team dont consider those shows canon. And that's why a lot of people question that as well because they see a clear distinction between how Feige handles his pet projects and how his deals with the projects of Marvel tv.

I think you cant handle the fact that there is no DD in the MCU right now. If it wasn't for him you would much more open to those versions being non-canon. We are the ones experiencing denial here.

 

[Spider-Fan]

To be honest the one who seems to be in denial is you. Marvel Studios is well-known for it's connectivity and has gone THE EXTRA MILE in referencing every single one of their 23 movies including TIH which was kinda the black sheep and had it's main act. Their entire hook is easter eggs, callbacks, winks towards the audience and referencing their other movies to reinforce the sense of a shared universe. That includes Agent Carter which had various MS people involved (Feige, D'Esposito, Markus and Mcfeely, Eeric Perason, Anthony Russo) and the D+ which Feige confirmed they will have their character appear in film.


So, you are trying to tell me that same studio who is all about acknowledgement and connectivity couldnt bother to put a line of dialogue acknowledging Daredevil or Jessica Jones? ONE LINE OF DIALOGUE over 6 years and a dozen of movies. Not a cameo, a single line of dialogue. And you are trying to convince people this means nothing? Feige is going the extra mile to acknowledging EVERYTHING he has produced and the shows that he had nothing to do with aren't even getting a reference. And this is supposed to be a coincidence? It's very clear from it's stance and from insiders like u/sorryeveryonemybad who works for MS that Feige and his team dont consider those shows canon. And that's why a lot of people question that as well because they see a clear distinction between how Feige handles his pet projects and how his deals with the projects of Marvel tv.

I think you cant handle the fact that there is no DD in the MCU right now. If it wasn't for him you would much more open to those versions being non-canon. We are the ones experiencing denial here.

The shows do reference the movies. Many times. Just because Captain America never pops in to say hi doesn't mean anything. Also, remember when Nick Fury was on Agents of SHIELD? Or Edwin Jarvis in Endgame?

Not in denial one bit.

 

[C. Lee]

I see the shows AGENT CARTER and AGENTS OF SHIELD as canon.....can't comment on the others because I have either not seen a single episode or only a few episodes of them. There are a lot of connections between CARTER/SHIELD and the movies (as in actors playing the same characters in both, things in the movies effecting the series, and at least one time something in the series effected the movies - on episode of SHIELD it showed that Fury had hid a helicarrior, and he showed up with it in AVENGERS AGE OF ULTRON).

 

[CommanderShep]

The shows do reference the movies. Many times. Just because Captain America never pops in to say hi doesn't mean anything. Also, remember when Nick Fury was on Agents of SHIELD? Or Edwin Jarvis in Endgame?

Not in denial one bit.

You completely missed my point. Marvel Studios and Feige never acknowledged the shows he didnt produce while he goes the extra mile and puts extra effort on referencing EVERY single one of his movies and shows.

If you think this is coincidental then you are in denial. If Marvel Studios considered those shows canon they would have canonised them long time ago. Even the Incredible Hulk has been referenced again and again and its by far the least successful mcu movie and thats thats because Feige produced it.

The shows can reference the movies as much as they want. That doesnt make them canon. Marvel Studios created the mcu, not Marvel tv.

 

[CommanderShep]

I see the shows AGENT CARTER and AGENTS OF SHIELD as canon.....can't comment on the others because I have either not seen a single episode or only a few episodes of them. There are a lot of connections between CARTER/SHIELD and the movies (as in actors playing the same characters in both, things in the movies effecting the series, and at least one time something in the series effected the movies - on episode of SHIELD it showed that Fury had hid a helicarrior, and he showed up with it in AVENGERS AGE OF ULTRON).

They were a lot of connections between Star Wars EU and the movies. Connections that only go one way mean nothing. Unless both parties acknowledge each other, its not canon.

 

[Spider-Fan]

You completely missed my point. Marvel Studios and Feige never acknowledged the shows he didnt produce while he goes the extra mile and puts extra effort on referencing EVERY single one of his movies and shows.

If you think this is coincidental then you are in denial. If Marvel Studios considered those shows canon they would have canonised them long time ago. Even the Incredible Hulk has been referenced again and again and its by far the least successful mcu movie and thats thats because Feige produced it.

The shows can reference the movies as much as they want. That doesnt make them canon. Marvel Studios created the mcu, not Marvel tv.

Again, I don't agree. The shows have Easter eggs and are clearly set in a world where the movies exist, and just cause a TV guy like Daredevil was never in a movie doesn't break any sort of illusion for me. It's a big world out there. Galaxy in fact. I don't think smaller scale heroes not crossing into major global and cosmic events is somehow world breaking. Sorry, I just don't.

Like I said before, shows are cannon until they do a real reboot. Like an origin Daredevil movie set modern day or something with a new Daredevil. That would be real and tangible evidence. Angry fanboys and people just saying Feige didn't mention them are not providing tangible evidence. Just speculation. But I am betting of the opposite happens, like Charlie Cox pops up in Spider-Man 3 or whatever, guys like you will try to mind ninja like it's not the same Daredevil.

It's not denial. Not one bit my friend.

 

[C. Lee]

If you think this is coincidental then you are in denial. I

That is the second time that you said someone was in denial. They are stating their OPINION. Do NOT say someone is in denial for giving their opinion.

 

[Mike Murdock]

You completely missed my point. Marvel Studios and Feige never acknowledged the shows he didnt produce while he goes the extra mile and puts extra effort on referencing EVERY single one of his movies and shows.

That's factually untrue. He specifically acknowledged Agents of SHIELD as the explanation for where Fury got the Hellicarrier in Age of Ultron.

 

[CommanderShep]

That's factually untrue. He specifically acknowledged Agents of SHIELD as the explanation for where Fury got the Hellicarrier in Age of Ultron.

No, its factually true. Back in 2015 the aos showrunners could watch mcu movies because Perlmutter still had a say over feige.

Aou was written months before the episodes in s2 who address the Helicarrier so Fury's line of grtting it from "some friends" is incredible vague and was written way before the AOS so its not a direct acknowledgement.

The movie was written in late 2013 and started filming in 2014 before the first aos season even finish. The line that you call acknowledgement is literally a vague line the aos showrunners took it and worked around it. The movie didnt didn aos in mind when fury said the line so they dont acknowledge them in any way.

 

[Mike Murdock]

Aou was written months before the episodes in s2 who address the Helicarrier so Fury's line of grtting it from "some friends" is incredible vague and was written way before the AOS so its not a direct acknowledgement.

I'm not talking about an acknowledgement in the movies. I'm talking about Kevin Feige literally acknowledging that you should watch Agents of SHIELD to find the story about how Nick Fury got the Hellicarrier.

 

[CommanderShep]

I'm not talking about an acknowledgement in the movies. I'm talking about Kevin Feige literally acknowledging that you should watch Agents of SHIELD to find the story about how Nick Fury got the Hellicarrier.

Wrong again. Like i said the script was wirrten at least a year before the AOS episodes.
Neither Feige nor Whedon cared what AOS was doing or what it was going to do. In case you forgot Whedon infamously said during the AOU press tour that Coulson was dead for the movies.

The showrunners took a vague line and worked around it like they did with the accords or with the TWS twist. Markus and McFeely werent even aware that AOS was dealing with Inhumans and with the whole fish oil thing and you want me to believe Feige was directly saying people they need to watch AOS? It's the showrunners trying to fill in some gaps. The movie side NEVER cared what they did. The fact that you are trying to spin vague lines written before the show's episodes to gasp at straws makes even more apparent what me and many other people say. If Marvel truly considered the shows canon they would have directly acknowledged CLEARLY and without leaving a shadow of a doubt. If TIH can Thunderbolts Ross popping up in Phase 3 the only ecuse that Feige and Marvel Studios have is THAT THEY DONT CARE ABOUT THE SHOWS.

There is an entire Ihumans crisis and emergence that the movies havent even referenced.

 

[fan4stic]

Wrong again. Like i said the script was wirrten at least a year before the AOS episodes.
Neither Feige nor Whedon cared what AOS was doing or what it was going to do. In case you forgot Whedon infamously said during the AOU press tour that Coulson was dead for the movies.

The showrunners took a vague line and worked around it like they did with the accords or with the TWS twist. Markus and McFeely werent even aware that AOS was dealing with Inhumans and with the whole fish oil thing and you want me to believe Feige was directly saying people they need to watch AOS? It's the showrunners trying to fill in some gaps. The movie side NEVER cared what they did. The fact that you are trying to spin vague lines written before the show's episodes to gasp at straws makes even more apparent what me and many other people say. If Marvel truly considered the shows canon they would have directly acknowledged CLEARLY and without leaving a shadow of a doubt. If TIH can Thunderbolts Ross popping up in Phase 3 the only ecuse that Feige and Marvel Studios have is THAT THEY DONT CARE ABOUT THE SHOWS.

There is an entire Ihumans crisis and emergence that the movies havent even referenced.

Read About A Big Agents of SHIELD Age of Ultron Crossover

 

[fan4stic]

I lean to them being canon.

 

[CommanderShep]

Read About A Big Agents of SHIELD Age of Ultron Crossover

What does that prove exactly?

Its a known fact that the aos were able to see mcu movies early to have a heads-up during phase 2 like they did with tws. The only reason this happened was because Perlmutter could force Feige to show them the movies. Do you know when that stopped? When Feige took control of the mcu and he didnt didn't to informed then about little events like the snap or the 5 year gap in Endgame.

The only reason they were able to fill the gaps was because they had early access to the movie. When Feige kicked Perlmutter and the Creative Committee out they lost said access which resulted to hilarious inconsistencies like AOS s6 or runaways s3 where the character time travel forward and nothing has changed.

 

[Mike Murdock]

What does that prove exactly?

You said that he never acknowledged Agents of SHIELD.

 

[MadVillainy]

I'm mostly gonna comment on the Netflix shows, but it's been said a bunch of times but people trying to shoehorn the Netflix MCU shows as canon as silly.
-At least with AoS and Agent Carter you have some blatant crossover between characters and tie in moments like them finding the helicarrier or Samuel L Jackson cameos. Netflix doesn't really have anything as deep or concrete as that. In fact it's missing things like the Avengers Tower (it was in a motion poster, but thats it)

-Completely different in tone, in aesthetic, and in just about every way than the MCU movies. The movies have been praised and criticized for being so hyper connected tonally, aesthetically, etc. The Netflix shows are such a departure from that. It's like The Mandolorian is darker than your standard Star Wars Episode, but it's still very much feels like Star Wars. I think if anyone says that the Netflix shows "feel" like the movies, they're lying to you or themselves. Even with the "DCEU" or whatever, they play around with their movies and alot of them post JL do vary, but even then they still feel like they could be in the same world in some aspects. There really is noting from Daredevil or whichever shows that feels like the MCU.

-Most importantly, what has been said by Kevin Feige. He has hinted that these new Disney+ shows will be the first time they fully interlink. All the people saying "until Marvel tells me otherwise." That quote that caused a few people to get a conniption...is basically saying that they aren't "linked" or canon.

I just don't see how anyone can logically say that the Netflix shows are canon to the movies except for the weird one sided references. And even those one sided references started to fade a bit. If the "connection" is one sided and there's no flow or synergy that doesn't seem canon.

At the same time, I don't see why people still care. I think what I've read is people saying: "But but but THEY PROMISED US" that everything will be connected. And before the first trailer for DD, I wanted that too, and I get it is slightly annoying that we didn't get them all connected (even though we still got a decent amount of good TV seasons) but as the shows evolved they clearly didn't fit with their cinematic counterparts.
Again they look different, the filmmaking is different, even the style of acting and dialogue is different. It would've been a detriment to both if you tried to put some of the Netflix characters alongside the rapid fire, quip a minute style of filmmaking of the movies or taking someone like Holland Spidey being thrown into the TV-14 not kid friendly gritty Netflix movies. It ended up being for the best.

As for AoS and AC? Agent Carter is for sure canon as they included the Jarvis actor in Endgame. And, more importantly, it has Kevin Feige's name on it. I can't comment much on AoS

 

[CommanderShep]

You said that he never acknowledged Agents of SHIELD.

The movies never acknowledged AOS which is a fact.

The showrunners working around a vague line of dialogue isnt isnt acknowledgement. Its merely trying to fill in some gaps while the movies couldnt care less.

If you honestly believe that Marvel Studios whose entire MO is callbacks, eye winks and references not even referencing yhe shows is coincidental or that it means nothing you will be unpleasantly surprised the next two years. Especially when Ms Marvel comes out

Some of you were promised something by Loeb who had no authority to promise it and you latch to it like a drowning man.

 

[fan4stic]

The movies never acknowledged AOS which is a fact.

The showrunners working around a vague line of dialogue isnt isnt acknowledgement. Its merely trying to fill in some gaps while the movies couldnt care less.

If you honestly believe that Marvel Studios whose entire MO is callbacks, eye winks and references not even referencing yhe shows is coincidental or that it means nothing you will be unpleasantly surprised the next two years. Especially when Ms Marvel comes out

Some of you were promised something by Loeb who had no authority to promise it and you latch to it like a drowning man.

Kevin Fiege was said to have pointed to AOS in that article.

 

[CommanderShep]

Kevin Fiege was said to have pointed to AOS in that article.

The same Kevin Feige who answered to Perlmutter and the Creative Committee in 2015 and was forced to show Marvel TV people movies per Ike's request? That Kevin Feige? The one forced to play ball because Ike could overrule him and boycott movies like he did for Captain Marvel and Black Panther for years? That Kevin Feige?

The same one who locked the creative committee and the tv showrunners out of early screenings post 2015 when he took control and he didnt inform them about two of the most pivotal events of the MCU, the snap and the 5 year time jump? That Kevin Feige?

The line in the movie isnt meant to acknowledge AOS. The movies have never acknowledged AOS or any other show Feige hasnt worked on. That is a fact.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Jarvis, a character originated in a show was physically in Endgame. That is a fact.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I'm mostly gonna comment on the Netflix shows, but it's been said a bunch of times but people trying to shoehorn the Netflix MCU shows as canon as silly.
-At least with AoS and Agent Carter you have some blatant crossover between characters and tie in moments like them finding the helicarrier or Samuel L Jackson cameos. Netflix doesn't really have anything as deep or concrete as that. In fact it's missing things like the Avengers Tower (it was in a motion poster, but thats it)

-Completely different in tone, in aesthetic, and in just about every way than the MCU movies. The movies have been praised and criticized for being so hyper connected tonally, aesthetically, etc. The Netflix shows are such a departure from that. It's like The Mandolorian is darker than your standard Star Wars Episode, but it's still very much feels like Star Wars. I think if anyone says that the Netflix shows "feel" like the movies, they're lying to you or themselves. Even with the "DCEU" or whatever, they play around with their movies and alot of them post JL do vary, but even then they still feel like they could be in the same world in some aspects. There really is noting from Daredevil or whichever shows that feels like the MCU.

-Most importantly, what has been said by Kevin Feige. He has hinted that these new Disney+ shows will be the first time they fully interlink. All the people saying "until Marvel tells me otherwise." That quote that caused a few people to get a conniption...is basically saying that they aren't "linked" or canon.

I just don't see how anyone can logically say that the Netflix shows are canon to the movies except for the weird one sided references. And even those one sided references started to fade a bit. If the "connection" is one sided and there's no flow or synergy that doesn't seem canon.

At the same time, I don't see why people still care. I think what I've read is people saying: "But but but THEY PROMISED US" that everything will be connected. And before the first trailer for DD, I wanted that too, and I get it is slightly annoying that we didn't get them all connected (even though we still got a decent amount of good TV seasons) but as the shows evolved they clearly didn't fit with their cinematic counterparts.
Again they look different, the filmmaking is different, even the style of acting and dialogue is different. It would've been a detriment to both if you tried to put some of the Netflix characters alongside the rapid fire, quip a minute style of filmmaking of the movies or taking someone like Holland Spidey being thrown into the TV-14 not kid friendly gritty Netflix movies. It ended up being for the best.

As for AoS and AC? Agent Carter is for sure canon as they included the Jarvis actor in Endgame. And, more importantly, it has Kevin Feige's name on it. I can't comment much on AoS

There are really 2 points you make I want to counter. First, the aesthetic. The Netflix shows do have their own aesthetic. I agree with you. But various other Marvel films have different Aesthetics from other ones as well. The Captain America films have a different aesthetic than the Guardians of the Galaxy films who have a different aesthetic than the Iron Man films Etc. So I don't think that really overly matters.

The second would be lack of connective tissue. Yes, I don't think we get anything quite overt in the shows. But again, I don't really see an issue here. We see things like newspaper clippings and various areas established in the Marvel films mentioned like the raft. The Avengers Tower thing honestly I don't notice when I watch the shows. I only know this because people pointed it out. But it's not something I ever consciously recognized or anything when I was watching the shows. So I can chalk that up to a cost-saving measure for the shows. But honestly, the Easter eggs that the shows do provide do make it feel connected enough at least for me. Obviously that varies from fan to fan, but I don't think I'm in denial for thinking the Netflix shows are the same world. Now, if the characters get a flat reboot like new actors and stuff, well then I'd be in denial to keep pedaling the same they're connected argument. But given what we have right now, honestly I don't think it matters one way or the other on either side. It really doesn't amount to anything to keep arguing this until something happens with the characters in the future. Whether we see Charlie Cox or Krysten Ritter come back or what have you.

 

[CommanderShep]

Jarvis, a character originated in a show was physically in Endgame. That is a fact.

Feige was executively producing that show like he did with all the movies and d+ shows and its the only tv show to be acknowledged.

But you already knew that. You chose to ignore it in hope people wouldnt know that.

So the only thing to be acknowledged in the mcu are things Feige had a hand on developing. And the only thing to NEVER be acknowledged are things he wasnt involved in.

You have to be blind to not see the pattern here.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Feige was executively producing that show like he did with all the movies and d+ shows and its the only tv show to be acknowledged.

But you already knew that. You chose to ignore it in hope people wouldnt know that.

So the only thing to be acknowledged in the mcu are things Feige had a hand on developing. And the only thing to NEVER be acknowledged are things he wasnt involved in.

You have to be blind to not see the pattern here.

Like I said above, it's really useless to debate this topic until we see what the future holds for those characters. But that said, of the likes of Cox, Bernthal, Ritter, etc do comeback, I cannot wait to see what excuses you're going to give us then.

 

[TheVileOne]

Fury's line in AOU was "Pulled her out of mothballs with a couple of old friends." And we also see the comms SHIELD dude from Winter Soldier who wasn't a HYDRA sleeper agent. That was about the extent of the reference.

Just a minor throwaway line. They did do a couple of episodes here I think SHIELD found HYDRA's secret base and think Coulson's like "send in the Avengers" I guess to tie into the opening prologue scene for Age of Ultron, but it wasn't all that important in the grand scheme of things. Nor was SHIELD's reaction to Sokovia/Ultron.

The connectivity on the TV shows beforehand wasn't great, but it looks like that is changing with DisneyPlus. It already appeared that things were souring anyway with Netflix and Marvel before the Netflix shows got cancelled. Feige said himself the plan is to bring in Ms. Marvel on TV first followed by the movies. That at least suggests she'll be in like a future Avengers movie or like Next Avengers, Young Avengers, or an A-Force film, etc. if they make those.