Does marvel really have a problem with making their villains cool?

[MichaelChen]

A terrorist Mandarin who presents his tech as some form of magic would have been a great way to do the character in IM3. Not only it would have been a nice parallel to Tony, both being futurists with the tech they invent/have/use and present, but it would have still been in line with Tony's paranoia in the film over the existence of Gods and aliens plus still keep the "not everything is what it seems to be" theme intact. To see Kingsley play that would have been spectacular.

That sounds lame. And it's really not what comic Mandarin is about. He's basically about savagery. He's kinda like the Cumberbatch version of Khan, Vandal Savage, and Gorilla Grodd. He's about mixing Bond Villain schemes with incredible personal savagery. He's not Abra Kadabra.

 

[The Overlord]

That sounds lame. And it's really not what comic Mandarin is about. He's basically about savagery. He's kinda like the Cumberbatch version of Khan, Vandal Savage, and Gorilla Grodd. He's about mixing Bond Villain schemes with incredible personal savagery. He's not Abra Kadabra.

I may sound like a broken record that this point, but I think the big problem with adapting comic book Mandarin is what you described is an archetype rather a fully realized character.

In theory Khan and Grodd and Savage are similar characters, but when you dig under the surface and the differences start to show up. Grodd and Savage are monsters, with no redeeming qualities. Khan has always been given redeeming qualities of some sort, his love of his wife in Wrath of Khan and his love of his crew in Into Darkness. So this basic archetype when given deeper characterization, you can have a sympathetic character fit this archetype or you could have a monstrous character.

The problem with Mandarin is, only thing that is somewhat consistent is the archetype, the deeper character stuff changes so often that I don't know what he is about. Knauf gave him defined sympathetic characteristics, while Fraction wrote him as pure evil, they don't seem like the same guy.

What would a faithful adaption of Mandarin be, a sympathetic one, a monstrous one or something else?

The answer is simple: his experience in the cosmos changed him. Made him truly understand power. Seeing not just the world, but the universe has made him scarier in time. It really isn't hard at all to do. It just takes some imagination.

As for Mola Rom, yeah he was scary. But what about Belloq in Raiders or Vogel in Last Crusade? Both were basic the same type of villain Red Skull was. THAT is closer to what they wanted. It worked. It is also worth noting that for all the scariness of Mola Rom, that Raiders and Last Crusade were better films and most people don't even know Mola Rom's name.

Sorry, I meant to address this sooner, but I have been busy lately.

Red Skull in the comics is a way better defined villain then Belloq is, so turning Red Skull into Belloq seems like a real step down for the character. Also Red Skull being changed by the cosmos seems rather lame, IMO, compared to Red Skull becoming a racist hate filled psychopath due to a bad upbringing in Wiemar Germany. How the cosmos make him the type of hate filled bigot who prosecutes a friend of Captain America because he was a homosexual, tries to kill his own daughter because she is girl and tries to organize genocidal campaigns. I think taking racist aspect out of the Red Skull makes him less interesting and I don't see how getting stuck in space would bring that element back. It seems like a poor substitute to the characterization he receives in the comic.

If Indiana Jones could have a violent and scary villain with Mola Rom, I don't see why Red Skull couldn't similar scary in a Captain America movie. I didn't miss Red Skull in Winter Solider, at this point I couldn't care less if he reappears or not.

In terms of visuals was what I was going for more, I certainly don't think they are main villain worthy, but done right I think they could be remembered favourably, love or hate him, Ben Kingsleys Mandarin in IM3 is definitely someone who has been remembered, and he wasn't even the main villain of the movie. Albeit both characters exist under very different circumstances, I just think visually and comedic wise they could be memorable. Im not making out they are Loki memorable.

I actually think most of the Marvel movie villains have good visuals on one level or an other, I don't think the problem with Malekith is how he looks, its that he had no personality. I thought Whiplash looked fine (I never cared for his comic book costume), it was his reduced screen time that made him less interesting. The Wrecking Crew is fine for an action scene or two, but the truly memorable villains should are the ones with interesting personalities, that is where most of the Marvel movie villains fall flat, in terms of personality rather then visuals.

 

[TeeKay]

I'm pretty sure Brolin's "no former music video directors" comment was a dig at Zack Snyder.

First of all, Josh Brolin has NO ROOM to talk **** on Zack Snyder.

You wanna know why? Well that's because his voice for Thanos was lame as hell. Not in the least bit threatening or scary. It just sounded like Josh Brolin.

Thanos isn't fricking supposed to sound like some regular American dude. This guy is THE villain of the MCU and he sounds lame as hell IMO. I personally know people that could do a Thanos voice more threatening than Brolin's.

I'm not trying to turn this into a Marvel/DC thing, but Brolin's comment was a definite jab at Snyder. Just wait til Zack Snyder gives us his version of Darkseid. He's going to look AND sound so much more threatening and terrifying than this child friendly Thanos.

I was pumped for Thanos in GOTG. But once again, Marvel proves that they can't make truly threatening villains. The Marvel movies are great, but the villains are lame as hell. Thanos follows this trend. DC excels with scary villains, i can't wait to see their take on Darkseid, he will be as scary and threatening as Thanos should be.

A villain doesn't need to be 'threarening' to be considered great, you know that right?

 

[Dasher10]

And this is why I keep mentioning Zemo for Captain America 3, Enchantress for Thor 3 and Zeke Stane for Iron Man 4. They're all complex, even somewhat sympathetic villains.

I'd also suggest Daniel Bruhl (Rush) for Zemo. Viva Bianca (Spartacus) for Enchantress and Zac Efron (Neighbors) for Zeke Stane.

Bruhl can play a deeply angsty character well and Zemo needs to be tortured. He needs to want revenge on SHIELD for the death of his father or Grandfather depending on when exactly he died. (Heinrich should be in the Agent Carter series IMO.) He also needs to be a megalomaniac bent on world domination. Bruhl not only speaks German fluently as a first language but he's also a terrific actor who can play a villain defined by equal parts rage, humanity and ambition.

Viva Bianca is everything I could want in Enchantress. Namely she's Australian which gives her perfect chemistry with Chris Hemsworth. She's also perfect at playing sneaky, manipulative characters and who better to be Loki's queen with plans all her own than the same woman who played Ilithia on Spartacus? Enchantress needs to be played by somebody who could convincingly frame Loki for crimes he didn't commit while seducing Thor and then reveal that she was the real villain all along and come across as genuinely wanting to atone and later as a selfish, power hungry villain without having to change her performance or characterization at all. Enchantress doesn't cackle, she's more subtle than that. She pretends that she did nothing wrong while trying to conquer Asgard for herself and needs to convincingly still act like a victim after her plans are exposed. She is if anything less trustworthy and more power hungry that Loki himself and the only way to effectively portray that is to have her act like she's innocent while doing absolutely horrible, terrible things.


I'll admit that at first, I considered Zac Efron to take over for Downey when the latter retires but the more I think about it, the more I like Efron as a villain and the more I'd rather see Joseph Gordon Levitt or Shiloh Fernandez eventually be the Tony Stark of the 2020s. Zac Efron is great at playing the type of character that Tony Stark used to be. An arrogant, reckless jerk who has next to no concern for consequences and is defined by his immaturity and irresponsibility. He needs to be this dark mirror of Stark in his youth and Efron is typecast in that role because he plays it well.

These should be the villains of the future. I feel like it's too soon to reboot Mandarin and I'd rather have villains who are more complex take center stage in the near future. I also like Madame Masque a lot from Iron Man's rogues and I can see her being just as creepy as Heath Ledger's Joker.

 

[Silvermoth]

Yeah you're right about zeke and zero but I've never really thought of enchantress as a complex villain. She's usually just a bit of an s and m fantasy and as far as motivations for bad assery go "I really want to sleep with Thor" isn't exactly compelling.

That's why I think the next Thor film should be a Loki film based on blood brothers.

 

[Mike Murdock]

The only problem is Thor has a decent set of villains. They're running into the Magneto problem with him. They feel compelled to use him, but there's only so much they can do without treading on previous stories or on other villains. There's no question, for example, that Loki vastly overshadowed Malekith. I'd argue the movie would have been far worse had he not, but still, do you want Loki to be the only villain worth mentioning in a Thor movie?

 

[3dman27]

regarding iron mans rogues gallery I think political correctness tends to get in the way of a good story

 

[Loki882]

There's no reason why they cannot give villains somewhat different motivations in the films. For instance, The Enchantress can have motivations beyond "I want to sleep with Thor." That can be part of it, but they could easily give her some deeper reason to do what she does.

 

[BoredGuy]

Enchantress should be betrothed to Thor

When Thor was banished in the first film and fell in love with a Midgardian, she grows resentful of the fact she won't be queen someday, and begins hatching her plan. Then in TDW when Thor decides to leave Asgard and abandon his throne, she brings her full wrath down upon Thor and his earthly friends (maybe via the wrecking crew, maybe even killing Darcy... hopefully!)

That way it honors the classic Amora stories without being outright puppy love and obsession and making her just a stalker. Instead she's jealous and power hungry and feels robbed of her rightful place by Thor, giving her personal, but not creepy, reasons to go after him.

 

[Silvermoth]

Eh I still don't love those motivations. So she wants to rule Asgard? Maybe she should.

I mean who really cares?

Iron man has a few good ones that they can use like living lightning and Madame masque, I would also love to see aim developed more as an anti stark industries.

Hulk has a few. Black panther has a few. Captain marvel doesn't have a whole lot but she can gain some soon. Captains doing fine developing the ws and hydra story

 

[blalex620]

There's a great way Marvel could do the Thanos Quest and introduce some new villains too. They should take the Thanos portion of Infinity and use that as a basis for the search for the gems. Thanos' Black Order, which consists of Corvus Glaive, Black Dwarf, Ebony Maw, Proxima Midnight, and Supergiant, could be introduced in a post credit scene in Avengers 2 being told to go find the infinity gems. Then all throughout the rest of Phase 3 and Avengers 3 we see the Black Order going on a path of death and destruction searching for the gems culminating in their search for the last gem on Earth and Thanos coming and getting the last gem preceding to try and destroy Earth.

To me this could be a great way to introduce new villains with future potential (especially Proxima, Corvus and Ebony Maw) and it'll show how great Thanos is in that he has control over powerful followers.

 

[Saitou Hajime]

I don't really like this recent interpretation of Thanos as the galactic overlord with his own personal quirky miniboss squad. I've always thought of him as more of a loner who indulges in temporary alliances or hired mercenaries at best (whom he'll most likely screw over by story's end), and for the most part surrounds himself with mechanized servants (especially that floating orb that follows him around).

 

[Dasher10]

Eh I still don't love those motivations. So she wants to rule Asgard? Maybe she should.

I mean who really cares?

Iron man has a few good ones that they can use like living lightning and Madame masque, I would also love to see aim developed more as an anti stark industries.

Hulk has a few. Black panther has a few. Captain marvel doesn't have a whole lot but she can gain some soon. Captains doing fine developing the ws and hydra story

Living Lightning is an Avenger. You're thinking of Living Laser and yes, Living Laser is a very cool villain.

And even though Whiplash was underdeveloped and we got Killian as Mandarin, Iron Man actually does have a decent rogues gallery. The movies just need to give us the REAL Mandarin (I'd suggest Daniel Day Kim, Hiroyuki Sanada, Chao Yun Fat, Ken Watanabe, Song Kang-ho or Choi Min Sik since Asia is full of amazing older actors), Madame Masque, Ghost, Zeke Stane, Sunset Bain, Spymaster or Living Laser. That's a better rogues gallery than most heroes have.

And if they are redoing Mandarin, he also needs to be redone with Ultimo at his side. I'd also make explain Ultimo as a reactivated Celestial's corpse that Mandarin has been dissecting to gain his rings. Ultimo would be perfect to see on the big screen.

And Enchantress can indeed have alternate motivations. She just needs to be played by Rachael McAdams or Viva Bianca if Marvel wants her to be done right.

Also, when it comes to rogues galleries, most properties able to be turned into films or TV shows have some strong ones. I've already listed Iron Man's enemies so I won't repeat myself and I won't bother listing villains who have already appeared.

Hulk: Maestro, Red Hulk, U-Foes, Flux, The Gamma Corps, Leader and Mercy

Thor: Enchantress, Grey Gargoyle, Surtur, Gorr, Perikus, The Wrecking Crew, Cul Borson and Chaos King

Captain America: Zemo, Viper, Taskmaster, Sinthia Schmidt, Doctor Faustus, Flag Smasher, Cutthroat, Constrictor, Eel, Songbird and Death Adder

Avengers: Kang, MODOK, Namor, High Evolutionary, Count Nefaria and the Masters of Evil who can be any collection of previously defeated villains. Plus, any big enough villain from a hero's rogues gallery can also get revenge on the entire team. There can even be an adaptation of Civil war where the Avengers fight each other.

Captain Marvel: Supreme Intelligence, Cru, Doomsday Man, Yon-Rogg, Moonstone, Ghazi Rashid and if Marvel has the rights or could sell the live-action X-Men TV rights back to Fox for them, The Brood and Deathbird. I'd even feel like Shatterax belongs here who Marvel absolutely does own but never fought Carol in her own title.

Black Panther: Moses Magnum, Klaw, White Wolf, Man Ape, Killmonger.

Doctor Strange: Dormammu, Mordo, Shuma Gorath, Cthon, Umar

Ghost Rider: Mephisto, Blakheart, Black Rose, Blackout and Zadkiel

Blade: Deacon Frost, Xarus, Dracula, Doctor Sun, Lucas Cross

Daredevil: Kingpin, Bullseye, Elektra, Ikari, Gladiator, Bullet, Typhoid, Mister Fear, Death Stalker, Spot, Nuke, Echo and Ammo

Luke Cage: Purple Man, Nightshade, Bushmaster, Chemistro, High-Tech, The Hood

Iron Fist: Radeon, Scythe, Steel Serpent, Harold Meachum, Thunderer, Triple-Iron, Master Khan, Angar, Kumbala Bey, Mr. Xao, Yu-Ti, Joy Meachum, Chaka, Zhou Cheng, Quan Yaozhu

Punisher: Jigsaw, Barracuda, The Russian, Nicky Cavella, Rawlins, General Zhakharov, Shotgun, The Slavers and The Exchange

Moon Knight: Bushman, Midnight, Toltec, Snapdragon and Black Spectre

And then as for the heroes who have weaker rogues galleries, there are a few gems who stand out


Black Widow: Kestrel, Yelena Belova and Lady Bullseye.

Ant-Man: Whirlwind and Egghead

War Machine: Titanium Man and Mauler

She-Hulk: Thundra, Titania and Behemoth


The only property which I feel is lacking in terms of villains is Guardians of the Galaxy since they mostly fight Fantastic Four and X-Men villains like the Phalanx, the Shi'Ar and Annihilus who Marvel don't own the rights to. Kree-Skrull War can be adapted with the Guardians replacing the Avengers but overall, the GOTG really need new villains of their own which Bendis needs to create.

 

[Silvermoth]

Living laser! Quite right, sorry about that. I was thinking of how great it would be to see an out and serving lgbt avenger and I must have got my wires crossed.

 

[MichaelChen]

The movies just need to give us the REAL Mandarin (I'd suggest Daniel Day Kim, Hiroyuki Sanada, Chao Yun Fat, Ken Watanabe, Song Kang-ho or Choi Min Sik since Asia is full of amazing older actors),

Aren't those guys all full asian? The Mandarin is only half asian, and should have a half asian actor.

And if they are redoing Mandarin, he also needs to be redone with Ultimo at his side.

He only teamed up with Ultimo one or twice in fifty years. They've been separate in the overwhelming majority of appearances.

 

[Mike Murdock]

Yeah, I'm not seeing Ultimo. I do, however, think they should introduce Fin Fang Foom.

 

[Dasher10]

Living laser! Quite right, sorry about that. I was thinking of how great it would be to see an out and serving lgbt avenger and I must have got my wires crossed.

Mockingbird is slightly confirmed to be bisexual since she canonically has a crush on Black Widow in the Black Widow: Deadly Origin miniseries.

Wiccan and Julie Power also have higher chances of appearing but LGBT characters are far more prominent among the Runaways, SHIELD and the Guardians of the Galaxy than they do the Avengers.

That said, individual supporting characters for certain Avengers are present.

Jim Wilson was gay and Marlo Chandler is bisexual and both are important members of Hulk's supporting cast.

And among Iron Man's villains, Spymaster swings both ways.

And Fox over with the X-Men have a number of gay (Northstar, Karma, Rictor, Vivisector, Phat) and bisexual (Storm, Shatterstar, Psylocke, Deadpool, Prodigy, Wolverine, Cable) protagonists. And even among the villains, we have couples like Juggernaut and Black Tom and Mystique and Destiny. At least until Chuck Austen wrote Juggernaut as straight and had the scene between him and She-Hulk when he'd always previously been written as gay which is yet another reason to hate everything he wrote.

 

[Dasher10]

Actually, I take that back. Hercules is an avenger who qualifies.