Does Race Really Matter?

[DarKush]

i think people feel she was'nt fit for storm because as they put it she was'nt "black enough" since she is of mixed ethnicity and is'nt as dark skinned as comic storm and storm has that African goddess vibe to her which is why everyone's #1 choice back in 99 was Angela Bassett who has a far more intimidating look than baby face halle

For me, I don't think it was an issue of Halle being 'black enough' since Storm is a blue-eyed woman with white hair, which is generally not the norm for a majority of blacks. I think some of the criticism for Halle came from feelings that she wasn't a strong actress. I did like Angela Bassett more for the role because she came across as more of a leader than Halle. She has a grit and a toughness that Halle doesn't possess.

 

[DarKush]

Not really, but does it work in reverse too? Could we have a white Blade, or John Stewart, without it seeming racist?

If not, then don't bother changing any main characters race, it's a can of worms.

Can the opponents come up with something more original than this tired retort? It's always a variation of a white Shaft or Blade. So at least John Stewart is new, or this debate at least.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

Can the opponents come up with something more original than this tired retort? It's always a variation of a white Shaft or Blade. So at least John Stewart is new, or this debate at least.

The last few pages of this debate have been about completely different arguements... and you pick up on the one post that is similar to things you've seen before...

 

[DarKush]

^
I was responding to post #122 on page 5. This is page six and your natty response post is #128. Perhaps my math is a bit fuzzy but that doesn't look like a few pages ago to me. But I guess what I should really do is ask your permission about what I should comment on.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

^
I was responding to post #122 on page 5. This is page six and your natty response post is #128. Perhaps my math is a bit fuzzy but that doesn't look like a few pages ago to me. But I guess what I should really do is ask your permission about what I should comment on.

You're post indicated that none of the 'opponents' were coming up with anything but #122 's arguement.

I was merely pointing out that if you actually read the discussion that's been going on, there have been plenty of other points made. Obviously, there were 121 other comments before that one...

 

[DarKush]

^
And if you had read the comments you are telling me to, you would know that I have commented earlier which you can more than assume means that I have read others comments. And most of the opponents arguments boil down to a variation of the white Blade/white Shaft argument. Before you attempt to check me, check yourself. Further, I can respond to what I like, when I like.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

I really don't see anywhere in my post where I indicated you couldn't

I just think your comment was very dismissive to the points we've all been making, and I responded in defense of the actually civilised and varied discussion we've been having. And I completely disagree that they all boil down to the same thing. You specifically said 'Can the opponents come up with something more original?' - I was just pointing out they already have, and you seem to have belittled that in that one comment.

I said previously in this thread that I understand why the 'white Blade' arguement is not a very strong one. But it's not a 'tired retort'... it's just someone's honest opinion.

 

[Baramos]

Honestly a thread like this is going to be discovered twenty years from now and it's probably going to look ridiculous.

Race has continued to matter less and less over the last several decades and will probably continue into the future.

Funny how those arguing so passionately not to change the race of certain characters only argue when it's the characters they care about personally.

Samj Jackson has been super popular as nick fury and you see hardly anybody complaining. Frankly unless a character's race is essential to the character (which is very rare) i don't see a huge issue.

Probably true. I wondered why people were so vehemently against Peter Parker being played by the guy from Community. A black character would work just as well in that backstory as a white character based on the location, background, etc. But it was probably because they dislike change. Of course, they figured a way around it by just making another Spider-Man. Same thing with Batman, they came up with Batwing, which is a pretty good comic book.

 

[DarKush]

I really don't see anywhere in my post where I indicated you couldn't

I just think your comment was very dismissive to the points we've all been making, and I responded in defense of the actually civilised and varied discussion we've been having. And I completely disagree that they all boil down to the same thing. You specifically said 'Can the opponents come up with something more original?' - I was just pointing out they already have, and you seem to have belittled that in that one comment.

I said previously in this thread that I understand why the 'white Blade' arguement is not a very strong one. But it's not a 'tired retort'... it's just someone's honest opinion.

I thought your initial reply to me was dismissive and did not take account of the fact that I had just in fact commented on a side conversation about Halle as Storm before I said something about the 'white Blade' comment.

We can disagree about the tiredness of the 'white Blade' comment if you like, but I have seen that response many times, not just in this thread, but whenever a question like the one the original poster had asked. I wasn't limiting my reply to just this thread, but thinking of the many similar responses in other threads. However I have seen the white Blade retort more than once in this thread too.

 

[The Epic Beyond]

Comics are a visual medium and race comes to matter because it's a visual queue. A live action adaptation should make the drawings come to life. When a very significant visual element is altered its ok as long as doesnt take you out of the immersion.

Personally I though Donald Glover wouldn't have been a bad spiderman because spidey's race doesnt matter. he wears a full body stocking and could be anybody under that mask (That's probably why Spiderman has such a universal appeal). Making Heimdall black in Thor was alright because he wasnt the main character. The change didnt pull the viewer out of the immersion. In fact idris elba kinda made him a little more badass

 

[JeetKuneDo]

Meh.... sometimes it matters and sometimes it doesn't. If you do it because the actor is awesome (Kingpin) then I don't have a problem with it. If you do it because you want to forcefeed more black characters onto the public I think you are being elitist and an a-hole.

Make new black characters if you think there should be more black characters. If the public doesn't want more black characters so be it. There is nothing wrong with people identifying more with characters of their own race. No one tries to force Chinese, Hispanic, or African people to like characters of a different race. The US is mostly made up of white people so it would unreasonable to think there would be a large number of characters of other races. No race does that...whites are no different. It's not "racism"...it's normal to relate to your own race. (And of course not a problem to relate more to your own race if you AREN'T white)

If anything, whites in the US are less racist than other races in the US. At least whites will support sports that are dominated by other races. You won't catch black sports fans supporting hockey or NASCAR....and note how interest in golf and tennis increased among black fans with the arrival of Tiger Woods and the Williams sisters. Whites support Tiger and Kobe as well as white athletes.

And don't change the sex of the characters either unless you've got a really good reason.

 

[Zarex]

Meh.... sometimes it matters and sometimes it doesn't. If you do it because the actor is awesome (Kingpin) then I don't have a problem with it. If you do it because you want to forcefeed more black characters onto the public I think you are being elitist and an a-hole.

Make new black characters if you think there should be more black characters. If the public doesn't want more black characters so be it. There is nothing wrong with people identifying more with characters of their own race. No one tries to force Chinese, Hispanic, or African people to like characters of a different race. The US is mostly made up of white people so it would unreasonable to think there would be a large number of characters of other races. No race does that...whites are no different. It's not "racism"...it's normal to relate to your own race. (And of course not a problem to relate more to your own race if you AREN'T white)

If anything, whites in the US are less racist than other races in the US. At least whites will support sports that are dominated by other races. You won't catch black sports fans supporting hockey or NASCAR....and note how interest in golf and tennis increased among black fans with the arrival of Tiger Woods and the Williams sisters. Whites support Tiger and Kobe as well as white athletes.

And don't change the sex of the characters either unless you've got a really good reason.

I don't think it is so much "force feeding more black characters" onto the public as it is simply trying to be fair. The overwhelming majority of superheroes that we love today were created over fifty years ago, at a time when those considered to be non-white were on the fringes of American society. Presenting an all-white cast in a comic book movie may have been fine during the WW II era, but is inconsistent with the racial makeup of America today. And it would be unfair (and silly) for a filmmaker to say to gifted actors like the late Michael Clarke Duncan, Idris Elba, and Kerry Washington that there is no room for you on our film set based on inking choices that were made many years prior to your birth.


Your points about whites being less racist than others because we will watch people of color play sports is profoundly ignorant. And while the US is made up mostly of white people, that is changing quite rapidly. Through low birthrates among whites, immigration and intermarriage, I have a feeling you are going to become extremely uncomfortable in this country unless you have a profound attitude adjustment.

 

[ShredderX]

Meh.... sometimes it matters and sometimes it doesn't. If you do it because the actor is awesome (Kingpin) then I don't have a problem with it. If you do it because you want to forcefeed more black characters onto the public I think you are being elitist and an a-hole.

Make new black characters if you think there should be more black characters. If the public doesn't want more black characters so be it. There is nothing wrong with people identifying more with characters of their own race. No one tries to force Chinese, Hispanic, or African people to like characters of a different race. The US is mostly made up of white people so it would unreasonable to think there would be a large number of characters of other races. No race does that...whites are no different. It's not "racism"...it's normal to relate to your own race. (And of course not a problem to relate more to your own race if you AREN'T white)

If anything, whites in the US are less racist than other races in the US. At least whites will support sports that are dominated by other races. You won't catch black sports fans supporting hockey or NASCAR....and note how interest in golf and tennis increased among black fans with the arrival of Tiger Woods and the Williams sisters. Whites support Tiger and Kobe as well as white athletes.

And don't change the sex of the characters either unless you've got a really good reason.

LMAO !!!! WTF ??? Tell me you're joking right ??

 

[terry78]

Does he sound like he's joking?

 

[ShredderX]

sad part is , no.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

LMAO !!!! WTF ??? Tell me you're joking right ??

Not seeing a convincing rebuttal here.

You sound more like a member of the PC police who just say something is wrong without giving a logical reason.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

I don't think it is so much "force feeding more black characters" onto the public as it is simply trying to be fair. The overwhelming majority of superheroes that we love today were created over fifty years ago, at a time when those considered to be non-white were on the fringes of American society. Presenting an all-white cast in a comic book movie may have been fine during the WW II era, but is inconsistent with the racial makeup of America today. And it would be unfair (and silly) for a filmmaker to say to gifted actors like the late Michael Clarke Duncan, Idris Elba, and Kerry Washington that there is no room for you on our film set based on inking choices that were made many years prior to your birth.


Your points about whites being less racist than others because we will watch people of color play sports is profoundly ignorant. And while the US is made up mostly of white people, that is changing quite rapidly. Through low birthrates among whites, immigration and intermarriage, I have a feeling you are going to become extremely uncomfortable in this country unless you have a profound attitude adjustment.

What is "fair"? Don't you really mean...."Forcing non-white characters into a story for political reasons whether there is a demand for them or not"? Should we go by percentage of the population to be "fair"? That means 12% of all characters have to be black, 16% Hispanic, 4% Asian, and 63% white. Is that "fair"? ...Or will there still be carping from the peanut gallery about how unjust it all is?

If there is a demand for non-white character then they will appear over time. If there is not a demand for them, then it's "fair" that they are not there.

Naturally you instantly assume I hate non-while people. Color me unsurprised. I am quite comfortable around non-white people thank you very much.

My point about sports viewing is true and valid. Non-whites will not support a sport that is dominated by whites. White people will fill the stands to watch non-white athletes. Look it up yourself. If the reverse were true, white sports fans would certainly be taken to task for that attitude and we all know it. The "I can't identify with the athletes" line would be taken as incredibly racist.

 

[metaphysician]

I actually disagree that Spider-man would work just as well as a black guy. Or rather, that *Peter Parker* would work just as well. The problem isn't that his backstory requires him to be white; it doesn't. However, if you make Peter Parker black or hispanic, you run a really high risk of turning his perpetual buzzard luck into an undesirable racism metaphor. And *that* would be bad for the character, IMO: Spider-man is supposed to be dogged largely by his own guilt, not by the evils of society.

 

[Baramos]

*Psst* JeetKuneDo, this is the part that sounds racist and makes us wish you were joking:

There is nothing wrong with people identifying more with characters of their own race. No one tries to force Chinese, Hispanic, or African people to like characters of a different race. The US is mostly made up of white people so it would unreasonable to think there would be a large number of characters of other races. No race does that...whites are no different. It's not "racism"...it's normal to relate to your own race. (And of course not a problem to relate more to your own race if you AREN'T white)

If anything, whites in the US are less racist than other races in the US. At least whites will support sports that are dominated by other races. You won't catch black sports fans supporting hockey or NASCAR....and note how interest in golf and tennis increased among black fans with the arrival of Tiger Woods and the Williams sisters. Whites support Tiger and Kobe as well as white athletes.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I don't think anybody (with common sense) has an issue with non-white characters.

The issue is taking old (white) characters and changing them for the sake of political correctness, diversity or whatever you want to call it.

If you write / draw a good character who is black or Hispanic, great.

But leave old characters alone.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

*Psst* JeetKuneDo, this is the part that sounds racist and makes us wish you were joking:

The fact that I know people identify more with people of their own race? This is news? Why is knowing that fact make a person racist?

Or am I a racist because I noticed that white people will support sports which are dominated by people of other races whereas black sports fans will not? Actually noticing that makes me a racist? Or is it that we aren't supposed to say it out loud and pretend it's not true?

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

The one thing I dislike about race changing is it's usually some "hand me down" character. The Electro news is kind of like this. Electro simply isn't much of a character, so you only risk pissing off those three Electro fanboys who have 'Max Dillon 4 life' posters in their mother's basement. Everyone else kind of doesn't give a sh**, but mostly because the character could fall in a meat processor and they still wouldn't give a sh**.

 

[Anno_Domini]

'Max Dillon 4 Life'

Do the same fanboys have WWMDD? bracelets?

 

[Rodrigo90]

After seeing Kayne West in a Batman suit...never mind.

 

[Quasimod0]

I dont really care for electro but I'd still like to see him as he looks in the comics. White.