Time to Discuss Race: The White Washing of The Shredder

[NinjaTurtleFan]

^ If that guy in the shadows is Saki, he seems to be very much fine with Sachs assuming the mantle, so your opinion doesn't match what the trailers have suggested.

No, correct, but I wasn't the jackass screenwriter who decided to write like that. Me, being a screenwriter, I would've stuck to the source of the original Eastman and Laird comics and not created an entirely new character with an Americanized identity, name, and Caucasian who also works with the real Shredder. Not to mention, making the Foot Clan be actual ninjas or can do ninjutsu and not a bunch of white guys who look like ex-Navy SEALS in "300" Immortals masks.

That's another that bugs me too about the new trailer. If New York was sieged by some gun-toting terrorist group or criminal organization, wouldn't the cops, the people, or the military itself go and help out New York? I don't care how much firepower or whatever these guys would have, they would not last long in today's world. With today's New York having faced as many things as they have had to faced in the past 14 years, realistically, if some fanatical group came in, America and the citizens of New York wouldn't stand for it. Granted, it's fiction, but I liked with the 1990's that the Foot Clan was an underground group that was slowly slithering their way top-side. Yeah, they were stealing appliances, stereos, and big-box items and kid stuff, but they basically stuck to the shadows and looked ninja-like.

If Shredder, however, created mutants like Bebop and Rocksteady, or bigger and badder mutants out of the ooze then New York would have a serious problem. Heck, beings from Dimension X, the Triceratons, or the Technodrome knocking over buildings. That I could see people go, "Holy crap! Someone get the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles! We're completely defenseless!" Look at the cartoons and comics for example. Yeah, the Foot in this reboot movie have assault weapons, rocket launchers, and apparently according to the Lego toys katanas, but nothing about this Foot Clan reads "ninja" to me, but more some ragtag group of ex-G.I.'s who decided, with some corporate bastard, to get into ancient Japanese culture and decide to adopt the Foot Clan as their moniker. Again, if that Man in the Shadows is indeed Oroku Saki, why would he be okay with some Blackwater-looking group calling themselves the Foot Clan vs. actually training people to be ninjas and having them learn 'the old style of ninjutsu?' It's things like these that make me go more and more with this movie.

 

[DigificWriter]

^ If there's so much about this movie that bothers you (irrationally, IMO), why in the heck are you even bothering to post about it?

To paraphrase the Bard, 'the man doth protest too much, methinks'.

 

[warhorse78]

I wonder, would people have a ***** fit if they made Casey Jones into a Black man?

 

[guitarsingerguy]

I wonder, would people have a ***** fit if they made Casey Jones into a Black man?

I'm sure they would, but some people protest it being a race issue where with some if us it's just a general issue of unnecessary change. Them making Casey Jones black would bother me just as much as them making Black Panther white because it's simply unnecessary.

 

[Tanin]

I wonder, would people have a ***** fit if they made Casey Jones into a Black man?

I'd have no problem with it as his race isn't instrumental with his background, but it'd be a hard line not trust that they'd not make him a stereotypical black "thug"

 

[Marvin]

I wonder, would people have a ***** fit if they made Casey Jones into a Black man?

That depends entirely upon if he was black in(any of) the source material for that is the determiner of opinion, in my experience.

Then again, many a fanboy seem content with april's change the other way, so who's to say.

 

[Wheels]

My issue is less about the actual change now that I've really thought about it and more what the change appears to be. I mean I like Oroku Saki and Ultron Shredder and would like to see those in a Turtles film. Eric Sachs on the surface seems like he'll be in the mould of an Obadiah Stane, Justin Hammer, Aldrich Killian, Norman Osborn, or Lex Luthor corporate type. What's the point of this particular change when we have an abundance of this type of character in comicbook films? I mean what's wrong with Oroku Saki? Why is Eric Sachs more interesting or a better character to use on film?

 

[DigificWriter]

^ It's not about whether or not something works 'better'; it's about the kind of story that the individuals involved in the film want to tell.

As far as what that story is, we know or can infer from the trailers that Sachs is connected to April's father, the Turtles, and a Japanese man who could possibly be Oroku Saki; we also know or can infer that the mantle of Shredder - and its associated armor - is something whose roots can be traced back to ancient Japan and the era of the Samurai, and that Saki - if that is who the Japanese man is - is linked with Sachs through the legacy of said mantle.

This suggests to me that the story they want to tell involves creating a legacy mythology surrounding the familiar character, concept, and idea of The Shredder rather than having it simply be a persona that one man invented out of whole cloth and also possibly has links to the entire reason the Turtles exist (since Sachs rather heavily implies in previous trailers that he helped 'create' them alongside April's father).

 

[Wheels]

I guess we're going to have to wait and see why that's a take worth seeing and embracing.

 

[Broseph44]

No, correct, but I wasn't the jackass screenwriter who decided to write like that. Me, being a screenwriter, I would've stuck to the source of the original Eastman and Laird comics and not created an entirely new character with an Americanized identity, name, and Caucasian who also works with the real Shredder. Not to mention, making the Foot Clan be actual ninjas or can do ninjutsu and not a bunch of white guys who look like ex-Navy SEALS in "300" Immortals masks.

That's another that bugs me too about the new trailer. If New York was sieged by some gun-toting terrorist group or criminal organization, wouldn't the cops, the people, or the military itself go and help out New York? I don't care how much firepower or whatever these guys would have, they would not last long in today's world. With today's New York having faced as many things as they have had to faced in the past 14 years, realistically, if some fanatical group came in, America and the citizens of New York wouldn't stand for it. Granted, it's fiction, but I liked with the 1990's that the Foot Clan was an underground group that was slowly slithering their way top-side. Yeah, they were stealing appliances, stereos, and big-box items and kid stuff, but they basically stuck to the shadows and looked ninja-like.

If Shredder, however, created mutants like Bebop and Rocksteady, or bigger and badder mutants out of the ooze then New York would have a serious problem. Heck, beings from Dimension X, the Triceratons, or the Technodrome knocking over buildings. That I could see people go, "Holy crap! Someone get the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles! We're completely defenseless!" Look at the cartoons and comics for example. Yeah, the Foot in this reboot movie have assault weapons, rocket launchers, and apparently according to the Lego toys katanas, but nothing about this Foot Clan reads "ninja" to me, but more some ragtag group of ex-G.I.'s who decided, with some corporate bastard, to get into ancient Japanese culture and decide to adopt the Foot Clan as their moniker. Again, if that Man in the Shadows is indeed Oroku Saki, why would he be okay with some Blackwater-looking group calling themselves the Foot Clan vs. actually training people to be ninjas and having them learn 'the old style of ninjutsu?' It's things like these that make me go more and more with this movie.

What I gather from all of your posts is you hate mostly everything about this movie, that you haven't even seen yet. You basically want this movie to be whatever fan fic you've created in your head. Or to be a carbon copy of the comic or cartoons. So it seems you've set it up for you to not be happy at all with this film. And you seem to insist that all of this films "problems" (your complaints) are fact, and how can anyone defend them or not have a problem with it. Answer is people are more open minded and accepting of change, apparently you aren't. We get it,

So I dunno why you'd even be on these boards every single day just telling us over and over you don't like this, that and the other. Or asking us why we like what we see, or how we can defend this film. Should we all blindly hate it like you? Don't see the film then. Stick to reading the comics, watching the old movies/cartoons. Extremely simple and sensical thinking I know. How crazy of me to suggest

 

[NinjaTurtleFan]

Plan to. But hey go and have a blast with the film. Like it to high hell. You have every right to be excited for it and express your excitement to seeing it, the changes, etc.

I happen to be on the opposite side of the fence and question many of the changes and yeah... maybe I have made up my mind without actually seeing the finished product, but that's what an audience member does when they see teasers, trailers, set photos, and read Internet rumors or interviews--- they make an opinion about a movie an decide whether or not they don't want to see it or they want to rush to the theater to see it. You and everyone else in the world do it all the time when you sit down in a theater seat. "Oh, that looks good. Oh, that doesn't look it."

Obviously, with this film we are at separate spectrums. To the life of me I can't understand many of the changes and unnecessary crap put into this film and yes maybe I have high-expectations for a TEENAGE MUTANT NINJA TURTLES or a certain met standards for said film (a lot of this coming from my adoration of the comics, cartoons, and movies) but other than the Turtles' personalities, seeing the Turtle Van, and the use of Vernon Fenwick in the movie, I don't see anything else that thrills me. The Turtles, Foot Clan, and Shredder don't look like they're suppose to look like, they changed the origin story, I could give a **** less about "legacy" or reincarnation, and simply put it's not my idea of a what I want out of a TMNT movie, but again that's judging from everything I've seen, read, or heard.

If you want to like it and everyone else wants to like it, keep doing that. Support it. Defend it. Treasure it. Love it. You have every right too.

But I really am sick of tired of people claiming I am a 'hater' or just spend every day hating this movie. Like I said, I've listed three things I like about this movie. Heck, there's a rumor Irma is in the movie. Karai is in the movie. It's about time they use these characters. So it's not like I totally despise everything about this reboot film. I just find that with the delays, the poor marketing, the people responsible for this, the script rewrites, and the designs, not to mention right out the gate Bay treating the fans like dog****, there was a lot I didn't agree with. And judging from the critic reviews TRANSFORMERS: AGE OF EXTINCTION is getting (17%), I would be a little nervous that this reboot film might not be critically loved too. Not to say the original films were either, but if I was in defense of this reboot film, I would be a little worried.

But by all means, man... enjoy the film. I hope it rocks your world and I mean that in the sincerest way possible. I'll stay on my side of the fence and you stay on yours and let bygones be bygones.

 

[Tanin]

It's tough being a Mirage Studios fan around here!

 

[Marvin]

Bay treating the fans like dog****

When was this, or is this some hyperbole?

And judging from the critic reviews TRANSFORMERS: AGE OF EXTINCTION is getting (17%), I would be a little nervous that this reboot film might not be critically loved too. Not to say the original films were either, but if I was in defense of this reboot film, I would be a little worried.

It is ironic isn't it. These original films folks consistently reference as the standard to strive for, themselves were belittled by these same critics.

Kinda makes a fan(boy) question which side of the "...well the critics say.." fence they want to sit on. Perhaps 30 year olds have no business judging how effective some kids property film is. Maybe we should go ahead and ask the kids.

 

[Loki882]

Except that the Turtles aren't exclusively for kids. Hell the earliest comics were far from "kid-friendly." The 1990 movie, the 2003, and the 2012 cartoons, and the current comics are all designed for a wide audience that also includes kids. So the "it's just for kids" argument falls apart pretty much right away.

 

[Marvin]

Except that the Turtles aren't exclusively for kids. Hell the earliest comics were far from "kid-friendly." The 1990 movie, the 2003, and the 2012 cartoons, and the current comics are all designed for a wide audience that also includes kids. So the "it's just for kids" argument falls apart pretty much right away.

In short, the 'earliest comics' may not have been kid friendly but they weren't exactly massively popular either.

In long,
Unlike the batman brand which owes it's fame and pop culture relevance to various incarnations all of which appealing to hugely lucrative and significant groups from all ages; From 40's comics(being the second comic book character right out the gate for all comicdom) to 80's comics(DKR and all that inspired in the industries) to 60's TV to 90's movie(s) to BTAS to Nolan, any one of those things has into themselves been pivotal and massively significant in the brands success(into themselves). Ninja turtles draws it's major pop culture success from a far more specific place and that place isn't the early obscure comicbook parody 'for adults' imo. That first animated series.
As for those movies, I remember the first one having an all ages feel to it yes but the immediate sequels were very distinctly not even that. Any guesses as to why they decided leo couldn't use his swords anymore? The answer of course decides this entire conversation. The hugely popular ninja rap exists inside of a kiddie movie as far as I'm concerned.

The current comic book? I don't care if there is a current power ranger's comic book that is dark and mature and does moderate business, I'm talking about the producers honoring the demo and tone in which the brand owes it's success and relevance. With the Rangers again, that would be a very specific place.

Not sure what went down in the 2003 cartoon but I do understand that the current nick toon is very much for kids in a way the TDK is for adults. I'd argue that as bloody silly and fun as air bender the cartoon is, even that has far more in the way of 'for adults' than this new turtles show does. Just because adult fans were committed to watching Turtles 2/3 in theater doesn't change what they were.

 

[Klank]

In short, the 'earliest comics' may not have been kid friendly but they weren't exactly massively popular either.

Well that depends on what you define as popular. They were selling faster than Mirage could make them and for a time more than some Marvel and DC books.

It was obviously popular enough to get the attention of movie studios even before it got the attention licensing and toy companies. I'd also point out that while the original comics and cartoon are very different a lot is the same at least to start off with.

We also had the very popular and fondly remembered 1990 movie which was a more than decent approximation of the comic books. Most people know the story of that movie even if they don't know were it originated from. Not to mention you wouldn't have to look too far to find someone who had bought the First Comics reprints of the early Mirage books.

Of course even the most popular comic book doesn't stand up to much in the grand scheme of things but no one suggests they aren't popular enough to be adapted faithfully.

Unlike the batman brand which owes it's fame and pop culture relevance to various incarnations all of which appealing to hugely lucrative and significant groups from all ages; From 40's comics(being the second comic book character right out the gate for all comicdom) to 80's comics(DKR and all that inspired in the industries) to 60's TV to 90's movie(s) to BTAS to Nolan, any one of those things has into themselves been pivotal and massively significant in the brands success(into themselves). Ninja turtles draws it's major pop culture success from a far more specific place and that place isn't the early obscure comicbook parody 'for adults' imo. That first animated series.

Except the Adam West series was the first popular version of Batman in wider media and for years the only version that appeared outside of the comics from the Superfriends to the Filmation series was very reminiscence of that version. Batman owed all his fame and pop culture relevance to the William Dozier series.

Sure he had a varied comic book history dating back to the forties and even a million selling graphic novel but that's still a drop in the ocean. It took the 89 Tim Burton movie to change that.

As for those movies, I remember the first one having an all ages feel to it yes but the immediate sequels were very distinctly not even that. Any guesses as to why they decided leo couldn't use his swords anymore? The answer of course decides this entire conversation. The hugely popular ninja rap exists inside of a kiddie movie as far as I'm concerned.

You mean the sequels that viewed as a step down from the original? It actually baffles me that no one making a TMNT movie looks at the only one that was actually successful.

Not sure what went down in the 2003 cartoon but I do understand that the current nick toon is very much for kids in a way the TDK is for adults. I'd argue that as bloody silly and fun as air bender the cartoon is, even that has far more in the way of 'for adults' than this new turtles show does. Just because adult fans were committed to watching Turtles 2/3 in theater doesn't change what they were.

I think it's interesting to ponder that the prime demographic for this movie, if they're aware of the franchise at all is through the 2003 series as they likely would have watched it when they were young.

I actually think there's some superficial similarities with both the Nick series and the upcoming movie to that series but it seems it doesn't go deeper than that sadly. There's certainly worse versions for them to draw on.

 

[Marvin]

I'd have to look at the numbers but to consider all that came of detective comics(DC) 27 and the various other comic book work alone that followed(including the 4 issue mini from miller) of the same mass popularity of the mirage book during it's time in 84...I find myself doubting that. I get that mirage was out of print on various issues but it's not like image comics is never out of print on the various creator owned things they run(most of which not named walking dead aren't what I'd call cultural hits). Even then you argue the bat man comics were a drop in the ocean, how you can't say the same about the even smaller mirage books in the context of this discussion...

But that's just the comics alone, the point was if you look at stuff like the adam west and how big a cultural hit that was, and then into the burton films...two very different tones both hugely successful that could easily warrant a debate amongst producers as to which direction is best representational of the brand.

I remember that playmates was very new in the game and hungry when they stuck that deal so it's not exactly like some massive toy companies were beating on lairds door thanks to that book series. They walked in and pitched it to the young toy company. That being said I do understand that it was the decade long animated series on cbs, the one produced by that same toy company to sell the toys, that sent the brand into cultural notoriety. The movieS resulting from that. I suppose there is the 2k3 series(something I don't see being the massive cultural thing the prior one was) that was more mirage.

I just think they owe it to themselves(investment wise) to look to where the brands most successful drawing power has proven to be in terms of what kinda audience to appeal to first and foremost.

 

[LaughingMage]

I wonder, would people have a ***** fit if they made Casey Jones into a Black man?

nah, I'd be fine with that.

 

[Klank]

I'd have to look at the numbers but to consider all that came of detective comics(DC) 27 and the various other comic book work alone that followed(including the 4 issue mini from miller) of the same mass popularity of the mirage book during it's time in 84...I find myself doubting that.

Just to be clear I'm saying the Mirage book was outselling some Marvel and DC books not all. Incidentally the Archie series was pulling in huge numbers during the height of the turtles but no one ever suggests using elements of that.

I get that mirage was out of print on various issues but it's not like image comics is never out of print on the various creator owned things they run(most of which not named walking dead aren't what I'd call cultural hits). Even then you argue the bat man comics were a drop in the ocean, how you can't say the same about the even smaller mirage books in the context of this discussion...

Well Image like Dark Horse and the like are actual companies. Mirage for a long time was just that a collective of some friends who made comics.

I also don't think you understand my point. All comic books are essentially a drop in the ocean when it comes down to it even the biggest sellers but some seemingly carry weight when it comes to being adapted into a wider while others strangely don't.

But that's just the comics alone, the point was if you look at stuff like the adam west and how big a cultural hit that was, and then into the burton films...two very different tones both hugely successful that could easily warrant a debate amongst producers as to which direction is best representational of the brand.

What about prior to the Burton movie?

For over two decades the William Dozier show was the only depiction of Batman that mattered and was culturally relevant. Almost every bit of merchandise was influenced by that show and every depiction on tv was too. Heck almost all of them used West and Ward for the voices.

To everyone who didn't follow the comic books it was inconceivable Batman could be done any other way until the Burton.

I suppose there is the 2k3 series(something I don't see being the massive cultural thing the prior one was) that was more mirage.

It isn't a massive cultural thing even though it was financially successful than people generally talk about my point is considering the prime demographic for this movie were probably children when that show was airing. I don't think it would be a bad to take that into consideration in a more than just superficial way.

I just think they owe it to themselves(investment wise) to look to where the brands most successful drawing power has proven to be in terms of what kinda audience to appeal to first and foremost.

Is that what they are doing?

A live action adaption of the Fred Wolf show wouldn't be my ideal movie but I could definitely understand the thought process of going in that direction but apart from a few characters that bare little resemblance to their namesakes it's very far removed the 80s animated series.

 

[Cooty_Cat]

when you assume....

 

[Broseph44]

Haha this thread is just laughable now.

 

[Klank]

Haha this thread is just laughable now.

Is it?


There's little doubt to most that the intention was Sachs being Shredder in a line of them.


Changing that at the last minute doesn't alter that especially as it seems they missed the point of why fans wanted Oroku Saki or a character like him in the first place. They may as well have left it as it was.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Haha this thread is just laughable now.

From what I am seeing it is pretty clear they "changed" it. To the point that Shredder is barely a character and the plot dances around him to the point that he was a late addition. Apparently doesn't resemble the Shredder of lore at all either.

 

[Cooty_Cat]

Wow, there is nothing wrong with being wrong. Trying to justify THE TITLE OF THE TOPIC is ridiculous. They did not white wash Shredder and the character is the same heartless scumbag, who happens to be Asian, in this movie as he ever was. It's just the dynamic of Shredder and Splinter that changed.

So no, the white washing of The Shredder did not occur and this topic did indeed fail.

 

[Klank]

Wow, there is nothing wrong with being wrong. Trying to justify THE TITLE OF THE TOPIC is ridiculous. They did not white wash Shredder and the character is the same heartless scumbag, who happens to be Asian, in this movie as he ever was. It's just the dynamic of Shredder and Splinter that changed.

So no, the white washing of The Shredder did not occur and this topic did indeed fail.

So you're saying that William Fichtner did not openly state that he was playing Eric Sachs and that the character goes through something that makes him put on the armor and become the Shredder?

Are you saying that the asian the actor that plays the shadowy figure that I guess we're supposed to think is Saki started shooting a part in his first major motion picture coincidentally during this movie's re shoots?

It may not have happened but there's little doubt that's exactly what they planned to do.