Comics Doomsday

[Victarion]

I have a very old toy of Doomsday from when I was little, and would like a bit of info about him. Is he the Venom of Superman? Overrated and known by everyone and their mother? Or more low key and with better motivations, ala Norman Osborn? Help please.

 

[Morg]

this should help

 

[Spike_x1]

I always thought that he was waaay overrated. Before becoming intelligent, the character was no more of a villain than kryptonite; mindless and the only reputation it had was for kicking Superman around.

Now that he's got brains, that only leaves the latter. I still think he's way overrated, though. You don't see Metallo or the Parasite getting the same reputation, even though Superman only survived many of his encounters with those guys through sheer dumb luck (in their first battles, the Parasite spared Superman and Lex Luthor had to kidnap Metallo just in time).

 

[Guyverjay]

The difference is probably the fact Doomsady didn't have a "gimmick", ie Kryptonite heart, power sapping abilities,omega effect etc etc. Supes wasn't weakened or disvantaged in any way. In fact Dooms was more disadvantaged in that fight. He literally just BEAT superman to death

 

[Spike_x1]

Doomsday is stronger than Superman and was brainless. That was his gimmick - it's pretty much all his reputation consisted of.

And Doomsday did exactly the same thing that several other villains have shown capable of doing: slapping Superman around with their individual gimmicks. The only difference with the Doomsday scenario is that the writers didn't copout and have Lady Luck swing by to save Superman's ass.

 

[Guyverjay]

Doomsday is stronger than Superman and was brainless. That was his gimmick - it's pretty much all his reputation consisted of.

And Doomsday did exactly the same thing that several other villains have shown capable of doing: slapping Superman around with their individual gimmicks. The only difference with the Doomsday scenario is that the writers didn't copout and have Lady Luck swing by to save Superman's ass.

He wasn't stronger than superman, are you forgeting that the match ended in a draw?

Since when is super strength a gimmick anyway?

Being brainless isn't a gimmick either, certainly not an offensive one anyway.

He beat Superman death in a straight up fist fight, thats not supposed to happen

 

[Spike_x1]

He wasn't stronger than superman, are you forgeting that the match ended in a draw?

Yes. He was. Are you forgetting that Doomsday was taking on the whole Justice League throughout the "Death of" story including Supes, and easily beat Superman in their first few small fights? It's safe to assume that Doomsday was worn down to some extent by the time he finally reached Metropolis for the big finale.

Superman just had the classic "Eye of the Tiger" going for his motivation.

Since when is super strength a gimmick anyway?

Since when is it not? It's worked for the Hulk for decades. I'm not saying it like it's a bad thing, but it is Doomsday's gimmick, and I don't see how anyone could say that it's not.

Being brainless isn't a gimmick either, certainly not an offensive one anyway.

It wasn't meant to be offensive, but being in a mindless rage and constantly filled with single-minded bloodlust was one of the few things that made Doomsday interesting back in the day.

He beat Superman death in a straight up fist fight, thats not supposed to happen

Well, if we ignore all those times where Brainiac, Darkseid, the Parasite, Metallo, Bloodsport, Mongul, the Silver Banshee, Lobo, Bizarro, the Terra-Man, and a dozen others have beaten him, then you would be correct.

Doomsday just had the advantage of the writers on his side (who, again, didn't resort to Superman's infamous luck to save him).

 

[ampersand]

Doomsday is basically just a plot device. They needed Superman to die, so they made a "character" that could kill him.

 

[The Question]

Personally, I think a better Death of Superman story would have been Metallo and Parasite finding out Superman's identity, going to his apartment, and beating him to death when he came home from work. Mainly because Metallo and Parasite are cool like that.

 

[Spike_x1]

I really enjoyed the story, personally. I mean, it worked perfectly for both drama, which all good stories need, and attracting customers.

The thing that I don't like about Doomsday is that he served his purpose in that story very well. To pretend that he's anything more than a walking plot device is (IMO) pointless. He did work exceptionally well in his origin story and the "Death of Superman" arc, as well as when he fought the Imperiex probes (he was actually one of the few good things about that story), but when certain people put Doomsday right up there with Lex Luthor and Brainiac on the list of top 10 Superman Villains, I roll my eyes. Why don't they just put kryptonite up on that list too? It equates to just about the same thing.

 

[The Question]

Basically. Now, if they gave Doomsday some actual character depth, my mind might be changed a bit. Still, it would have been cool to see Superman's villains simply getting together and beating the crap out of him. I mean, really, it wouldn't be hard. Parasite and Riot hold him down, and the rest take turns kicking him in the nuts.

 

[Aquaman]

Personally, I think a better Death of Superman story would have been Metallo and Parasite finding out Superman's identity, going to his apartment, and beating him to death when he came home from work. Mainly because Metallo and Parasite are cool like that.

definatly the funniest thing I've heard in a while.

 

[Guyverjay]

.Well, if we ignore all those times where Brainiac, Darkseid, the Parasite, Metallo, Bloodsport, Mongul, the Silver Banshee, Lobo, Bizarro, the Terra-Man, and a dozen others have beaten him, then you would be correct.

Yeah because everyone you mentioned beat him in a fair straight up fist fight where supes was at his peak and had the advantage post crisis...um no

 

[Dangerous]

Doomsday is the best Supes enemy ever.

 

[Spike_x1]

Yeah because everyone you mentioned beat him in a fair straight up fist fight where supes was at his peak and had the advantage post crisis...um no

Again, Silver Banshee did, Bizarro did, Metallo did (he didn't have kryptonite throughout the 90's and still managed to whoop Superman's ass on occasion), Lobo did, the Parasite did (without draining Superman's powers), Mongul beat Pre-Crisis Superman, as did Darkseid...

Do I really need to go on, or are you going to persist in arguing something that you obviously know nothing about?

I can even provide pictures and descriptions to prove my point if you actually do want to keep this going.

 

[KaptainKrypton]

Doomsday was/is a means to an end, in my eyes. I personally would've loved to see Luthor be the one to knock off Supes with his wits. Or maybe gather a gang of super-powered villains including guys like Black Adam and Metallo to corner him and beat him to death whilst Luthor creates a diversion that pulls the other heroes away from Metropolis (think natural disaster). It wasn't until I read the Hunter/Prey arc that I started to respect the history behind Doomsday and his power (evolutional regeneration). Plus, he was the first guy I saw knock the piss out of Darkseid. I personally think the writers could've used a different set of cards to play with instead of making a plot coupon to fight Superman. I always liked what Moore did when he had all of the villains storm the Fortress. I felt more drama in that issue watching Krypto die protecting Supes, than I did watching Supes fight to the death in midtown Metropolis. Not saying that I don't have that series of books, or that I don't like it, because I do. I just would've done it differently.

 

[Guyverjay]

Again, Silver Banshee did, Bizarro did, Metallo did (he didn't have kryptonite throughout the 90's and still managed to whoop Superman's ass on occasion), Lobo did, the Parasite did (without draining Superman's powers), Mongul beat Pre-Crisis Superman, as did Darkseid...

Do I really need to go on, or are you going to persist in arguing something that you obviously know nothing about?

I can even provide pictures and descriptions to prove my point if you actually do want to keep this going.

Yeah show me pictures

Better yet just give me issue numbers, I'll do the rest

I don't need desciptions

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

I thought it would have been better to have had Lex just kill him off with something.......but, DC going with this "new" villian from "nowhere", who has had nothing of a career after he killed Supes......it shows it was a gimmick. He was just some hired thug (hired by DC that is..lol...) sent in to do something new that would not really affect any long lasting relationships.....ie: If Lex had killed Superman off, that's something that would pretty much change they're relationship......and Lex would hang that over his head FOREVER........so, they went with this crazy ape.

Since then, the only place I've seen Doomsday was in a pretty cool arc in BATMAN/SUPERMAN......the Supergirl arc, where ons of weaker cloned Doomsdays attacked.

 

[The Question]

Like I said, Lex should have figured out the Clark/Superman thing, and sent a bunch of Superman's rogues to his apartment and ambush him when he got home from work. That would have been way more cool. Seeing Superman and a good chunk of his rogues gallary playing a cat and mouse game across Metropolis, ultimately resulting in The Parasite pinning him down and all of them just beating him to death in front of hundreds of onlookers. That, my friend, if done properly, would have kicked "the Death of Superman" in the nads with a steel toed boot of kickassery.

 

[KaptainKrypton]

Like I said, Lex should have figured out the Clark/Superman thing, and sent a bunch of Superman's rogues to his apartment and ambush him when he got home from work. That would have been way more cool. Seeing Superman and a good chunk of his rogues gallary playing a cat and mouse game across Metropolis, ultimately resulting in The Parasite pinning him down and all of them just beating him to death in front of hundreds of onlookers. That, my friend, if done properly, would have kicked "the Death of Superman" in the nads with a steel toed boot of kickassery.

Amen. It also would've helped change the status quo of his enemies and helped bring a definite measure of respect for his rogues gallery.

 

[Spike_x1]

Yeah show me pictures

Better yet just give me issue numbers, I'll do the rest

I don't need desciptions

I'm giving you descriptions anyway.

Silver Banshee did in Action Comics #595. (She's magic based, and therefore her scream easily has the capacity to kill Superman).

Metallo did in Superman in Action Comics #710 (if he hadn't of jumped onto a car and lost connection between his geomagnet and the earth, he would've beaten Superman to death).

The Parasite did in Superman: The Man of Steel #94 (of course the Parasite drained his powers near the end, just for spite, but even before that he was whooping a helpless Superman all over the place).

Mongul in "For the Man who has Everything" (if Robin hadn't have thrown the Black Mercy onto him at the last second, Mongul would've beaten Superman to death).

I'd like to add that Rampage also physically overpowered Superman in her first appearance in Superman #7 (where Superman very narrowly defeats her by somehow allowing her soloar energy to be absorbed into his cells, a process which also nearly resulted in his death if it weren't for a bolt of lightning).

Arclight would've killed Superman in Superman #103 (one of Emil Hamilton's machines saved his life... just in time).

In Superman #3, Clark Kent is teleported to Apokolips by Darkseid's Omega Beams. Once on Apokolips, Darkseid wonders why the Omega Effect brought him Kent instead of the intended target of Superman. (Superman is incredibly lucky twice here: Firstly in that the Omega Beams weren't intended to kill him, which was Darkseid's longterm goal, so it's a miracle Superman's not dead from that. The second source of incredible luck comes from the fact that Darkseid didn't immediately kill Clark Kent when he materialized before him).

I'm not a Lobo expert, so I don't have too many of his appearances, but it is officially part of his "resume" that he's beaten Superman in combat (probably with his bike, which has been known to blow up whole planets). Someone more versed with his character could probably shed more light on that, including issue numbers.

However, the fact remains that Superman has been beaten a good number of times without kryptonite and without being weakened beforehand. And his survival is always attributed to his miraculous luck. Whether it be a natural occurance that just so happens to come along to save him, or whether it be an ally who comes along just in the nick of time to either distract the enemy long enough for Superman to escape, or defeats the enemy for Superman, or even when the writer makes the opponent in question suddenly position themselves in just the right spot for any weakness to be blindingly exposed, whereas beforehand the enemy was very protective of said weaknesses.

 

[SuperLee]

Yea Supes gets beat all the time, but Deus Ex Machina always swings in to save him. Doomsday gets all the rep because he actually did it, and they kept the real Superman out of comics for a few months thereafter.

 

[Guyverjay]

I'm giving you descriptions anyway.

Silver Banshee did in Action Comics #595. (She's magic based, and therefore her scream easily has the capacity to kill Superman).

Magic based scream = Disadvantage to Superman, so nope this doesn't count

Metallo did in Superman in Action Comics #710 (if he hadn't of jumped onto a car and lost connection between his geomagnet and the earth, he would've beaten Superman to death).

That occured AFTER Death of Superman, so nope this also doesn't count. As for being beaten to death, please don't make me laugh, supes suffered no damage at all. You really think metllo could have gone the whole fight without being taken off his feet? Also Lois was in danger = Disadvantage for Superman

The Parasite did in Superman: The Man of Steel #94 (of course the Parasite drained his powers near the end, just for spite, but even before that he was whooping a helpless Superman all over the place).

Pictures?

Mongul in "For the Man who has Everything" (if Robin hadn't have thrown the Black Mercy onto him at the last second, Mongul would've beaten Superman to death).

Pre crisis, it doesn't count

I'd like to add that Rampage also physically overpowered Superman in her first appearance in Superman #7 (where Superman very narrowly defeats her by somehow allowing her soloar energy to be absorbed into his cells, a process which also nearly resulted in his death if it weren't for a bolt of lightning).

He got batted around, but again no damage. He soundly beat her in one issue. Also it wasn't a straight up fist fight. It burned everytime he touched her. The energy absorbtion was effecting him. This imo doesn't count

Arclight would've killed Superman in Superman #103 (one of Emil Hamilton's machines saved his life... just in time).

Energy based attack (another case of Supermans phatom energy absorbtion), not beaten physically = doesn't count. Also occured AFTER DOS

In Superman #3, Clark Kent is teleported to Apokolips by Darkseid's Omega Beams. Once on Apokolips, Darkseid wonders why the Omega Effect brought him Kent instead of the intended target of Superman. (Superman is incredibly lucky twice here: Firstly in that the Omega Beams weren't intended to kill him, which was Darkseid's longterm goal, so it's a miracle Superman's not dead from that. The second source of incredible luck comes from the fact that Darkseid didn't immediately kill Clark Kent when he materialized before him).

Omega beams = not fist fight = Doesn't count

I'm not a Lobo expert, so I don't have too many of his appearances, but it is officially part of his "resume" that he's beaten Superman in combat (probably with his bike, which has been known to blow up whole planets). Someone more versed with his character could probably shed more light on that, including issue numbers.

This isn't even evidence, plus using a bike that can level planets = using a weapon = not fist fight = doesn't count

However, the fact remains that Superman has been beaten a good number of times without kryptonite and without being weakened beforehand. And his survival is always attributed to his miraculous luck. Whether it be a natural occurance that just so happens to come along to save him, or whether it be an ally who comes along just in the nick of time to either distract the enemy long enough for Superman to escape, or defeats the enemy for Superman, or even when the writer makes the opponent in question suddenly position themselves in just the right spot for any weakness to be blindingly exposed, whereas beforehand the enemy was very protective of said weaknesses.

You haven't convinced me

 

[storyteller]

If you cant accept alternative fighting, stop posting in this thread.

 

[Guyverjay]

Get stuffed


I asked for specific times where Superman was physically beaten near to death in a straight up fist fight where he isn't a disadvantage, post crisis and before DOS (ie before Doomsday)

He responded with that and I gave my response

Who the hell was talking to you anyway?

At least we talking about superman comics unlike your post which is just an attack on me