Dormammu - the dread thread

[Mike Murdock]

I don't know much about him, so maybe someone can answer this for me...

Spoiler

Why were the bad guys able to break free of the reverse time spell, but Dormammu was unable to?

No one is going to have the answer, but I can make a couple of guesses.

Spoiler

Guess One:
Time is an alien concept to Dormammu. He never experienced it before because his dimension is out of time. Doctor Strange explicitly said he was drawing on the power of his dimension in the Dark Dimension. Kaecilius and the Zealots obviously have experienced time before.

Guess Two:
This one is more mundane. It looked like people were freed from being frozen in time when they were touched by Strange or Mordo. I'm going from memory, but it looked like someone accidentally brushed against Kaecilius, which started the chain reaction.

Actually, Guess Three:
Just as a third alternative, it's worth pointing out that freezing time and a time loop aren't inherently the same thing. We don't know if the Zealots could break out of that.

 

[terry78]

I'm going with theory one, as he genuinely seemed shocked and in horror at what Strange was doing.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

No one is going to have the answer, but I can make a couple of guesses.

Spoiler

Guess One:
Time is an alien concept to Dormammu. He never experienced it before because his dimension is out of time. Doctor Strange explicitly said he was drawing on the power of his dimension in the Dark Dimension. Kaecilius and the Zealots obviously have experienced time before.

Guess Two:
This one is more mundane. It looked like people were freed from being frozen in time when they were touched by Strange or Mordo. I'm going from memory, but it looked like someone accidentally brushed against Kaecilius, which started the chain reaction.

Actually, Guess Three:
Just as a third alternative, it's worth pointing out that freezing time and a time loop aren't inherently the same thing. We don't know if the Zealots could break out of that.

Good theories. I have one as well:

Spoiler

Dormammu's problem was two fold. One, that Strange was the loop and the loop is an anomaly in and of itself. It is "out of time". Strange had literally broken time, and not simply manipulated it. So Dormammu couldn't break what Strange already broke. He was at the mercy of Strange, who even if Dormammu attempted to leave could just kill himself and start it over again and again, and again. Could have been 100 years and Strange died of nature causes. Dormammu was still screwed.

The other problem was Strange had completed the process. Once he created the loop, he wad done. He didn't need to do anything else. In the other scene, Strange was in the process of turning back time and thus it could be interrupted and even stopped by stopping Strange.

 

[jaqua99]

Good theories. I have one as well:

Spoiler

Dormammu's problem was two fold. One, that Strange was the loop and the loop is an anomaly in and of itself. It is "out of time". Strange had literally broken time, and not simply manipulated it. So Dormammu couldn't break what Strange already broke. He was at the mercy of Strange, who even if Dormammu attempted to leave could just kill himself and start it over again and again, and again. Could have been 100 years and Strange died of nature causes. Dormammu was still screwed.

The other problem was Strange had completed the process. Once he created the loop, he wad done. He didn't need to do anything else. In the other scene, Strange was in the process of turning back time and thus it could be interrupted and even stopped by stopping Strange.

What I wondered was how Strange "ended" the loop. He had to cast a spell to start the loop. If the loop ends when he dies, how does he end the loop?

Perhaps the spell involved looping that moment to the individual's death?
Also, I don't think "Dormammu, I've come to bargain" was a gag on Strange's part. To me, it seemed like they were literally starting over, so at the beginning of the loop they were meeting for the first time. However, there issue there is that Strange has a different conversation at various points in different loops. Were they both aware of each loop? Do they have memories of each loop? Really curious as to how it all works. I really thought "i've come to bargain" was literally just the the loop starting over.

 

[jaqua99]

Also, I think Dormammu may be the most powerful character in a CBM. He was swallowing planets. I bet he turns up in Infinity War in a Galactus like role

 

[TheCardPlayer]

Dormammu was definitely aware of the time loop. He was about to repeat himself after the first loop, but realized that something was off. Strange I'm not sure. I think that since he knew what he wanted to do, prior to his first "death" in the Dark Dimension, it's possible that he understood off Dormammu's reactions that his time loop idea was working.

And I agree that he was awe inspiring. What a display of power. I love how he was a giant sized Ditko's Dormammu, made out of what looked like the same "scales" around the Zealots's eyes, but rippling with sheer power. And how his "antlers" some of his designs have in the comics, were replaced with waves of red energy pushing towards him, like reality itself had to struggle to sustain his form.

 

[AlluAllu]

I understood the scene so that Strange didn't retain memories of his previous iterations. His different lines were because of Dormammu's different reactions.

 

[metaphysician]

I don't know much about him, so maybe someone can answer this for me...

Spoiler

Why were the bad guys able to break free of the reverse time spell, but Dormammu was unable to?

Spoiler

Its not explained, but it makes sense to me. They are human sorcerers, who live in and understand time. Its something intrinsic to them. Thus, once Kaecilius senses that Strange was screwing with time, he could magic his way free of it.

Dormammu, by contrast, is a being from a realm where time does not exist. Its alien to his nature, and he has no power over it- the time is already introduced into his realm, so he can't draw stuff closer to his timeless realm as a way to escape time's influence.

 

[JB33]

I can't even wrap my head around the idea of NOT knowing what time is, if you guys know what I mean.

 

[metaphysician]

I understood the scene so that Strange didn't retain memories of his previous iterations. His different lines were because of Dormammu's different reactions.

I don't know, I think they both retained memories. In Dormammu's case, because he's a cosmic god, in Strange's case, because he created the time loop in the first place and probably built it that way. Otherwise, Dormammu's threat of dying a million times over wouldn't carry much weight, because he'd only experience it once.

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

I can't even wrap my head around the idea of NOT knowing what time is, if you guys know what I mean.

[YT]watch?v=EIihUx0SSrs[/YT]

 

[AlluAllu]

I don't know, I think they both retained memories. In Dormammu's case, because he's a cosmic god, in Strange's case, because he created the time loop in the first place and probably built it that way. Otherwise, Dormammu's threat of dying a million times over wouldn't carry much weight, because he'd only experience it once.

That is true. But I prefer it to Strange experiencing death however many times it was and coming back ok mentally. I'd imagine that to be somewhat traumatic.

 

[Mike Murdock]

I can't even wrap my head around the idea of NOT knowing what time is, if you guys know what I mean.

Frankly, he still seemed to understand the progression of events, cause and effect and all that. That's how all of us experience time as well.

That being said, it's best not to think too hard about it.

 

[jaqua99]

Dormammu was definitely aware of the time loop. He was about to repeat himself after the first loop, but realized that something was off. Strange I'm not sure. I think that since he knew what he wanted to do, prior to his first "death" in the Dark Dimension, it's possible that he understood off Dormammu's reactions that his time loop idea was working.

And I agree that he was awe inspiring. What a display of power. I love how he was a giant sized Ditko's Dormammu, made out of what looked like the same "scales" around the Zealots's eyes, but rippling with sheer power. And how his "antlers" some of his designs have in the comics, were replaced with waves of red energy pushing towards him, like reality itself had to struggle to sustain his form.

Okay, this makes sense

 

[Silvermoth]

I wonder why he didn't just nick Strange's time thingy and undo it

 

[Vartha]

Time thingy? You mean the Eye of Aggamotto? He probably had no clue what it was since Dormammu had no concept of time anyway

 

[mustapantteri]

does he even know the existence of the infinity stones? for a cosmic being with such a vast power, dormammu is quite an ignorant tyrant.

 

[terry78]

He may just be that arrogant to not think anything of them. I mean, he knows what Earth is so he should know, but....yeah.

 

[mustapantteri]

so he's well-aware of the concept of time but he just never experiences it before, or he's in awe because this is the first time he sees someone manipulating time in such fashion?

 

[terry78]

I don't even know. Scott Derrickson has a facebook where he's been answering questions about the movie, you may wanna take it up with him.

 

[mustapantteri]

i don't use facebook. i hope he will do a reddit ama again. or perhaps we will have to wait for the answers in the sequels. i've never read a doctor strange comics before so i have so many questions about dormammu lol. i've read a few complaints about how the time loop battle makes dormammu look dumb and weak and while i disagree. i kind of see why it appears that way to some people

 

[Vartha]

Yeah Dormammu might be a very powerful being, but he does have his ignorance to certain things in all the worlds he's collected I'm sure

 

[Batmannerism]

Frankly, he still seemed to understand the progression of events, cause and effect and all that. That's how all of us experience time as well.

That being said, it's best not to think too hard about it.

Yup. It's a movie about a guy who has a flying cape that beats up bad guys - do we really need to analyse it too much ?

Spoiler

Could Dormammu have broken out of the loop - who knows, and really, who cares ? For me, I just take Dr Strange's explanation at face value, that he brought time with him, from outside the Dark Dimension, and as such had the one power that Dormammu either couldn't defeat or at least didn't understand.

Either way works. I felt it was an immensely satisfying resolution, and am happy to leave it at that.

 

[Silvermoth]

Yup. It's a movie about a guy who has a flying cape that beats up bad guys - do we really need to analyse it too much ?

Yes. This is a comic book forum.

Time thingy? You mean the Eye of Aggamotto?

Haha oh yes I forgot lol. I saw it a week or so before you guys did so the ol' mind has forgotten a detail or two

 

[ctsketch]

I understood the scene so that Strange didn't retain memories of his previous iterations. His different lines were because of Dormammu's different reactions.

strange was also very aware they had done it over and over again