Dreamworks/Paramount's Ghost In The Shell - Part 3

[chamber-music]

Comic superheroes, sword & sorcery fantasy and science fiction space operas are niche geek culture things yet have successful drew mainstream audiences to see films and tv shows about them.

Live action Anime could cross over to wider audiences if it is done well or interesting enough. The Matrix was heavily inspired by Anime and did well. Anime and Video game movies are two things Hollywood just doesn't do very well. Hollywood has yet two successfully translate those to mediums into movies.

 

[Teelie]

Have not seen this movie, nor have any interest. But the film itself overall and the audiences' reaction, what do you think are the main factors that led to its downfall, and what could've helped the movie be successful?

So far, I think its...
1) The Whitewashing controversy. Lets face it: Japan wanted her to be white because anime characters don't look Japanese. It was mostly white people calling ScarJo out, when they should've been ignored and told to get a life.

I doubt this had much to do with it. Most people would not know/care about it enough to make an impact on the movie.

2) Rupert Sanders. The man makes movies with pretty images but dull stories. Snow White and the Huntsmen, anyone?

3) Script. The movie doesn't touch upon nor go deep into its themes, and its connections are not connected to anything, that the movie is literally nothing.

This I think was a big part of it. Between the director and the script it just felt flat and missing too much. The potential themes for it to explore were left to the anime and manga which did it better.

4) Marketing. Very cheesy, cliche, and it never drew us in. The only thing the trailers did was give us a cool song, but that was it.

Marketing certainly did not help but this movie also failed to give them much to work with either.

Another question:
With the real reasons versus the wrong reasons; how does one look to GitS in regards to other anime live action adaptations, including (if they want to or try to) a sequel to GitS?

This felt like a better anime adaptation which given the history, does not say much, but it still fell short of what it should have been.

 

[Goonie]

1) The Whitewashing controversy. Lets face it: Japan wanted her to be white because anime characters don't look Japanese. It was mostly white people calling ScarJo out, when they should've been ignored and told to get a life

The Japanese were the least amount of groups that whined about ScarJo

 

[Binker]

A big problem is that anime is niche. It is apart of a lot of geek culture, so we see it definitely then a lot of other people. A lot of us grew up when Dragon Ball was king. But anime is not popular on a sustainable level.

That isn't true. Anime is there, sure; but there are fans of it, even from those who could surprise you.

That type of statement fits what people said years ago on comics, sci-fi, and more.

The Japanese were the least amount of groups that whined about ScarJo

Which explains my point. Hell, this was brought up on Just Kidding News twice, and in both cases, plus other ones that relate to white washing or political correctness, it is not the groups that are being "offended" that are complaining, it is white people defending them when they don't need to.

Hell, I was thinking of what they could do a particular anime in a feature film, and I could see them do something that relates to both the original Japanese and altered English versions, then go their own direction that reflects every culture per se; yet people would still complain, that it would end up being back at square one.

I don't know if and how you could win this.

 

[zephyrinthesky]

People keep having this misconception that Japanese people in Japan are the same as Americans of Japanese/Asian descent. We're talking about two groups of people with entirely different experiences whose perspectives have little to do with each other.

Japan is a homogenous country where there are ample acting opportunities for ethnic Japanese in their own country. They're not gonna care about what Hollywood does in the same respect that Americans wouldn't care if they cast Japanese people in a Japan-made adaptation of Goldilocks and the Three Bears. It's Americans of Japanese/Asian descent feeling left out of their own industry that are decrying whitewashing, along with others who see themselves as "allies".

I think the whitewashing thing is overblown, but let's not pretend that Japanese people in Japan have any valid stake in this discussion.

 

[TheVileOne]

That isn't true. Anime is there, sure; but there are fans of it, even from those who could surprise you.

That type of statement fits what people said years ago on comics, sci-fi, and more.

Anime is still a niche demographic. Yes there are a lot of fans out there, but it's still a nice, segmented fanbase.

 

[PacificBoy]

Which explains my point. Hell, this was brought up on Just Kidding News twice, and in both cases, plus other ones that relate to white washing or political correctness, it is not the groups that are being "offended" that are complaining, it is white people defending them when they don't need to.

Hell, I was thinking of what they could do a particular anime in a feature film, and I could see them do something that relates to both the original Japanese and altered English versions, then go their own direction that reflects every culture per se; yet people would still complain, that it would end up being back at square one.

I don't know if and how you could win this.

I'm part Japanese and from east Asia, and would say the lens through which the Japanese see this whitewashing issue is quite different from the Americans' view. Whitewashing as a concept is fairly foreign because we're from largely homogenous cultures, whereas yours (or America's) is multiethnic and much more melting pot.

Although western -- and particularly white -- aesthetics has huge sway, anime characters are viewed as Japanese by us. Despite how they may look, they speak, act and comport themselves in typical Japanese manner. The Japanese have no issue with ScarJo playing an iconic role of ours because, one, we're already used to seeing the character portrayed in Japan, and, two, it's fun to see the property adapted elsewhere and played by one of the world's most well-known actresses.

The whitewashing issue at hand is a homespun one, because the property is adapted by Hollywood, and as such, the Japanese voices, while to be taken into account and not to be dismissed, is the less pertinent one in this situation. We're the outsiders here. A bit like the whole casting controversy of Memoirs of a Geisha when it was rumbling where prominent Chinese actresses played historically based Japanese characters, and the west was more indifferent to the controversy than the Japanese and Chinese. (I'm also Chinese so you could imagine the caught-in-the-middle discussions I had!), because the west has that much more of a distance to our historical context.

 

[Teelie]

Those are both valid points. On the one hand the Japanese have a right to be offended at how their culture was miscarried by the movie but most of them don't care so it is a moot point.

The other side are Japanese and in general Asian-Americans who could have been cast in multiple roles, especially the lead, but weren't because Hollywood still sucks at diversity, even as it half-heartedly tries to improve it.

Though anyone who thinks this movie would have been somehow better with an asian actress in the lead obviously has not seen the movie. No one could have saved it from the blandness of the story. Everything great about the movie was visual and in a few cases, the action scenes, but even those were more about the visuals than the actual fighting.

 

[MbJ]

Ironically it is better they didn't get an Asian actress because when it got this same level of reception it would've become the Catwoman or Elektra used in every argument about why aren't there better roles for Asians in Hollywood.

Scarjo's career will survive this but a lesser known Asian actress' wouldn't.

 

[dark_b]

Ironically it is better they didn't get an Asian actress because when it got this same level of reception it would've become the Catwoman or Elektra used in every argument about why aren't there better roles for Asians in Hollywood.
.

This is said every year when a movie bombs with white actors. And i think every year when producers and studio executives have meetings about castings they ask '' what about him/her? No noone would watch them. ''

so not only dont asian actors get a chance to be in profitable movies. Now they should be happy that they are not in bombs?

 

[MbJ]

A big problem is that anime is niche. It is apart of a lot of geek culture, so we see it definitely then a lot of other people. A lot of us grew up when Dragon Ball was king. But anime is not popular on a sustainable level.

That could be said with any number of superhero movies, which is why I find "The anime was too niche!" to be such a weird argument. There have been any number of successful films, not even just superhero ones, based on obscure source material. Nobody was asking for Rocket Raccon or Ant-Man movies and yet good marketing made them huge hits. That's not even counting the sheer number of movies based on original screenplays that also do well.

A more apt observation would be that Paramount overestimated the popularity of Ghost in the Shell, and tailored their marketing to that perception. A key point many of the analysts have brought up is that if you don't know anything about Ghost in the Shell, the trailers give you very little incentive to actually want to see the movie. A similar mistake was made with Atlas Shrugged, where all the marketing assumed that the audience was familiar with the original novel.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

That isn't true. Anime is there, sure; but there are fans of it, even from those who could surprise you.

That type of statement fits what people said years ago on comics, sci-fi, and more.

Comic superheroes, sword & sorcery fantasy and science fiction space operas are niche geek culture things yet have successful drew mainstream audiences to see films and tv shows about them.

Live action Anime could cross over to wider audiences if it is done well or interesting enough. The Matrix was heavily inspired by Anime and did well. Anime and Video game movies are two things Hollywood just doesn't do very well. Hollywood has yet two successfully translate those to mediums into movies.

But none of this is long embedded popular culture. Superheroes a very much an American thing. People grow up knowing Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Spider-Man, the X-Men, etc. And I am not just talking about one generation, but many. Superman was a bankable movie star in the 70s. Batman in the 80s.

The viability of Anime in the US can be reflected in how it is broadcast over here. How much it cost to even watch a lot of it. The biggest weekly anime broadcast in the US is on Saturday nights on Cartoon Network. The rest you have to seek out, find, and pay a fee for.

 

[2kt09]

The viability of Anime in the US can be reflected in how it is broadcast over here. How much it cost to even watch a lot of it. The biggest weekly anime broadcast in the US is on Saturday nights on Cartoon Network. The rest you have to seek out, find, and pay a fee for.

Next to nothing. Tons of either subscription services that option anime, optional subscription sites (mostly to watch the latest/ad-free), and youtube channels.
It's also the easiest thing to stream online as much as it is to read manga online.

But yeah, no sarcasm, still a niche.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Next to nothing. Tons of either subscription services that option anime, optional subscription sites (mostly to watch the latest/ad-free), and youtube channels.
It's also the easiest thing to stream online as much as it is to read manga online.

But yeah, no sarcasm, still a niche.

This is a perfect example of why it is niche. Who goes through that effort? Fans.

 

[2kt09]

This is a perfect example of why it is niche. Who goes through that effort? Fans.

Sorta. That whole anime/manga thing is such a media empire in Japan (that includes video games + heck mobile apps with that aesthetic) that it makes getting into Western superheroes limiting in comparison.

I'd say it's even easier for casuals to come across anime/manga than it is for fans of Marvel/DC/etc.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Sorta. That whole anime/manga thing is such a media empire in Japan (that includes video games + heck mobile apps with that aesthetic) that it makes getting into Western superheroes limiting in comparison.

I'd say it's even easier for casuals to come across anime/manga than it is for fans of Marvel/DC/etc.

How so? I cooled on anime for a good while, but then I finally saw FMAB and I started caring again. And that was because of Netflix.

With One Punch Man, I randomly got lucky at night and found that it was starting on Toonami.

I want to watch the new Little Witch Academia series here. But they haven't voiced it in English yet and Netflix won't release it here until and unspecified date, while it is airing in Japan.

Compare that to say, finding out the new Batman or Iron Man movie is coming out. Look at the attention the Thor trailer got. They talk about it everywhere. Talk shows, sports shows, there are tons of commercials, online ads and movie theater promotions, from standees and posters to the trailers.

It would be like not knowing a new Star Wars is coming out. Highly unlikely. But that One Punch Man is about to come on US television? Well that passed me right by and I cared.

 

[Sithborg]

Stupid Netflix waiting to air Little Witch Academia until it is complete.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Stupid Netflix waiting to air Little Witch Academia until it is complete.

They don't do that with every show. Why do they have to do it with this one? One actually airing elsewhere?

 

[PacificBoy]

Outside of Japan, even in east Asia, anime/manga is still pretty niche. There's a certain stigma -- rightly or wrongly -- attached to it.

 

[2kt09]

How so? I cooled on anime for a good while, but then I finally saw FMAB and I started caring again. And that was because of Netflix.

Yeah, that's what I mean by subscription services. I think some of them might have a separate anime category.

Compare that to say, finding out the new Batman or Iron Man movie is coming out. Look at the attention the Thor trailer got. They talk about it everywhere. Talk shows, sports shows, there are tons of commercials, online ads and movie theater promotions, from standees and posters to the trailers.

It would be like not knowing a new Star Wars is coming out. Highly unlikely. But that One Punch Man is about to come on US television? Well that passed me right by and I cared.

I feel like "talk" in reference to a singular experience for a span of 2 or so hours/sometimes less < all the viewing & engaging capabilities of what I listed
that just seem to be much more readily available given there's a much wider palette of it, especially as we move further digital

Plus, there's also just the most obvious notion that we still distinguish anime from simply animated even though we rely on the same overseas workforce

 

[chamber-music]

Some Anime is niche but there has been memorable anime shows and films that generations of people in the west grew up watching. Dragonball, Robotech, Astro Boy, Speed Racer, Samurai Pizza Cats, Sailor Moon, Pokemon, Gundam Wing and Battle of the Planets for example.

Studio Ghibli movies like Spirited Away and Howl's Moving Castle have also received acclaim in the west. Spirited Away was distributed by Disney and won an academy award. Studio Ghibli movies are regularly aired on film4 in the UK.

Most of the Anime I saw as a kid was on the Syfy network which aired Anime films and movies at night and the early morning from the 90s to around 2011.

Anime can have a negative stigma due to the weebo types just like superheroes can have a negative stigma due to the overzealous nerdy fanboy types.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Yeah, that's what I mean by subscription services. I think some of them might have a separate anime category.



I feel like "talk" in reference to a singular experience for a span of 2 or so hours/sometimes less < all the viewing & engaging capabilities of what I listed
that just seem to be much more readily available given there's a much wider palette of it, especially as we move further digital

Plus, there's also just the most obvious notion that we still distinguish anime from simply animated even though we rely on the same overseas workforce

But how does this make it more likely for a non-Anime fan to stumble upon anime and watch it, as opposed to someone seeing the latest superhero flick? Not just those that grew up with anime, but all age ranges.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Some Anime is niche but there has been memorable anime shows and films that generations of people in the west grew up watching. Dragonball, Robotech, Astro Boy, Speed Racer, Samurai Pizza Cats, Sailor Moon, Pokemon, Gundam Wing and Battle of the Planets for example.

Studio Ghibli movies like Spirited Away and Howl's Moving Castle have also received acclaim in the west. Spirited Away was distributed by Disney and won an academy award. Studio Ghibli movies are regularly aired on film4 in the UK.

Most of the Anime I saw as a kid was on the Syfy network which aired Anime films and movies at night and the early morning from the 90s to around 2011.

This is the exact point. How many of these are big over here now? Pokemon and maybe Dragon Ball. And it is because Pokemon is a game.

 

[2kt09]

But how does this make it more likely for a non-Anime fan to stumble upon anime and watch it, as opposed to someone seeing the latest superhero flick? Not just those that grew up with anime, but all age ranges.

The same way you stumble upon a cartoon.
In any case, a lot of the superhero stuff we see nowadays have clear inspirations from anime of yesteryear.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

The same way you stumble upon a cartoon.

And how many watch cartoons compared to going to see the new Marvel and DC movies in the US? So either anime has the worst conversion rate of all time, or Marvel and DC have a little more exposure over here.

For comparison, Iron Fist was trashed by the critics. The Netflix ratings were great.