Elder Scrolls V - Part 4

[Quasimod0]

I joined the empire. Seems like the empire is like the union and the storm cloaks the confederates. Lol

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

I'd rather die fighting for my rights than live in fear and under the threat of death daily. A government's goals should be more than just self-preservation. If the Dominion's ultimate goal is to obliterate mankind anyway, why compromise their way of life and culture in the meantime?

The Empire is compromising their way of life only temporarily in order to retool and really bring it to the the Thalmor. The Stormcloaks stand no chance against the Thalmor themselves and stand a better chance with the Empire, and to make it worse, like Sopay said, they're attacking and blaming the empire instead of fighting the Thalmor.

 

[ProjectPat2280]

Iv yet to pick a side. Still playing middle man, profiting off of both sides struggles. I'll continue to do so until its no longer finically viable for me. Then ill choose a side.

 

[Coca Cola Duracell Franklin.]

@CaramelPopcorn

Not only are the Stormcloaks short-sighted fools, but they're also grossly misguided. If they want to have their little rebellion, then they should at least make sure to rebel against the right people. The Aldmeri Dominion is the real enemy, not the Empire. In fact a united Empire is their best chance to one day destroy the Dominion and make Talos a god once more. But none of that directly benefits Ulfric, so it's off the table.

The Stormcloaks aren't a rebellion. The Stormcloaks are maintaining the ways of their land, which the Empire is unable to accommodate because they're are too busy bending over for the Thalmor.

Roggvir is the best example of this. Ulfric challenges the Solitude Jarl Torygg to combat, the Jarl Torygg accepted, and Ulfric won honorably. By the way of the Nords, Ulfric had done nothing wrong and Roggvir allowed Ulfric to leave. The Imperials accuse Roggvir of treason and publicly execute him without a trial.

What kind of government is that? The Empire is just doing what it wants to do without regard for the way of the land. Not to mention they nearly kill you within the first ten minutes of the game, even admitting they are doing it for no reason other than you were mistakenly put on the wrong cart. Clearly the empire doesn't give a damn about the people of Skyrim, and the Empire has no business in a land it can't properly govern.

Whether the Aldmeri Dominion is a greater overall threat is a moot point. The fact of the matter is that the Nords have their way of life and the Empire is an immediate threat to that. There's no reason to believe after giving up autonomy to the Empire, that the Empire would simply hand Skyrim it's power back after the threat was over.

I think of the Nords as Skyrim's Native Americans. You can call the Stormcloaks racist all you want (they aren't, though many are pissed off at other races for being less affected by the Thalmor than they are) but I couldn't blame them during a time where they are being culturally desecrated for another race's political gains. The "racism" that you stereotype onto them isn't inherent to their cause, it's a byproduct of the continued mistreatment and persecution of their people by an Empire that has forsaken them without a second thought.

 

[Wolvieboy17]

Sorry dude, maybe you aren' that far into it, but you are poorly misguided.

Firsly, Ulfric didn't honourably kill Torygg. Torygg was a boy king and Ulfric was a Man and a warrior, trained in the Thu'um. He was much stronger than Torygg and challenged him for no other reason than to prove his strength. Killing to prove that is not honourable. Ulfric himself calls Torygg a puppet king, so where is the honour in killing a puppet you know is no threat to you?

Secondly, you're acting like the 'Empire' is another nation, when there are plenty of Nords who count themselves as part of the Empire. The empire is merely the collective of all of Tamriel and naming Talos as illegal is not something they wanted to do but conceded for the greater good until the Alderi Dominion is not longer a threat. Hell, the only reason the Thalmor are present in Skyrim at all is because the Empire was hardly even enforcing the 'No Talos' thing. Also, the empire clearly DO give a damn about Skyrim, they simply don't give a damn about rebels with no foresight.

Also, you think the Stormcloaks or 'TRUE Nords' aren't racist, try hanging out in Windhelm as a Khajiit or Dark Elf.

Also, what prosecution by the empire? The ONLY restriction is the banning of Talos worship, but as many sensible Nord NPC's state, why make a fuss out of it when most Nords, even empire supporters, still have their Talos statue in their basement. The Stormcloaks are making the Empire into the enemy that is actually the Alderi Dominion.

But to be honest, you'll find all this out as I did, when you finish the Stormcloak mission. That's when you see what a **** Ulfric really is.

 

[Soapy]

The Stormcloaks aren't a rebellion. The Stormcloaks are maintaining the ways of their land, which the Empire is unable to accommodate because they're are too busy bending over for the Thalmor.

Yeah, making an accord with your enemy to end a brutal war and avoid total defeat, enslavement, and possible genocide isn't "bending over", that's called "a compromise" and it's generally how big boys handle their problems. Also, you're forgetting that a lot of Nords don't seem to mind all that much.

Roggvir is the best example of this. Ulfric challenges the Solitude Jarl Torygg to combat, the Jarl Torygg accepted, and Ulfric won honorably. By the way of the Nords, Ulfric had done nothing wrong and Roggvir allowed Ulfric to leave. The Imperials accuse Roggvir of treason and publicly execute him without a trial.

What Roggvir said, that's just one side of the story. Plus, what he did is treason. Not only did he not protect his king, but he allowed the murderer to escape.

Also, if you're going to say the Empire doesn't respect The Way of The Land™, then the same thing can be said about Ulfric. Bringing a gun (thu'um) to a knife fight is hardly what I would consider "honorable combat". In MMORPG parlance, Ulfric ganked the High King.

What kind of government is that? The Empire is just doing what it wants to do without regard for the way of the land. Not to mention they nearly kill you within the first ten minutes of the game, even admitting they are doing it for no reason other than you were mistakenly put on the wrong cart. Clearly the empire doesn't give a damn about the people of Skyrim, and the Empire has no business in a land it can't properly govern.

A few bad apples doesn't mean the whole Empire is bad. And I'm pretty sure there are more than a few Nords in the Imperial Legion.

C'mon son.

Whether the Aldmeri Dominion is a greater overall threat is a moot point. The fact of the matter is that the Nords have their way of life and the Empire is an immediate threat to that.

It's not a moot point, it's a fact. The Empire didn't want to take their precious Talos away, he was a god to more than just the Nords after all, they're just enforcing the law of the White-Gold Concordant. And you can bet that the Dominion would move against the Empire again if they saw them in a weakened state after a potential Stormcloak victory and succession of Skyrim from the Empire. Then everybody would be ****ed. So if Ulfric isn't a traitor now, then he sure as **** would be if his actions started the collapse of the Empire and subsequent enslavement of all non-elves.

There's no reason to believe after giving up autonomy to the Empire, that the Empire would simply hand Skyrim it's power back after the threat was over.

Yeah, except for the hundreds (maybe thousands?) of years before The Great War when the Empire had zero problem with anyone worshiping Talos. In fact they probably encouraged it since he founded the Third Empire.

I think of the Nords as Skyrim's Native Americans. You can call the Stormcloaks racist all you want (they aren't, though many are pissed off at other races for being less affected by the Thalmor than they are) but I couldn't blame them during a time where they are being culturally desecrated for another race's political gains.

Yeah, the Stormcloaks referring to themselves as "true" Nords and wanting to drive out all other races totally isn't racist.

The "racism" that you stereotype onto them isn't inherent to their cause, it's a byproduct of the continued mistreatment and persecution of their people by an Empire that has forsaken them without a second thought.

Excuses, excuses.

 

[Wolvieboy17]

In fact they probably encouraged it since he founded the Third Empire.

That's another really good point. Talos would probably mean just as much to the bloody empire supporters since he BIRTHED the empire!

Also, to create another perspective, compare Ulfric to Reyes from Red Dead Redemption and see how similar they are....Just a rebel who uses a lot of 'For the people!' type talk in order to gain themselves some power.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

Not to mention that during the main quest you discover that while you're in the Thalmor embassy you see a letter explaning that the Thalmor wants the Stormcloaks to win just so it would be easier to ransack and destroy. Also you discover that they banned Talos only to piss off the Nords.

 

[Darkb0rn]

Idk if this has been been posted but I just saw it for the first time and couldn't stop laughing

[YT]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bifmj1O3D24&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/YT]

 

[Spidey-Bat]

Roggvir is the best example of this. Ulfric challenges the Solitude Jarl Torygg to combat, the Jarl Torygg accepted, and Ulfric won honorably. By the way of the Nords, Ulfric had done nothing wrong and Roggvir allowed Ulfric to leave. The Imperials accuse Roggvir of treason and publicly execute him without a trial.

There may have been a trial, we don't know. And what Ulfric did was treason. As Soapy said, he killed the high king with a shout, you know the thing that you use to send guys flying off a cliff. Where is the honor in that?

Stormcloaks racist all you want (they aren't, though many are pissed off at other races for being less affected by the Thalmor than they are) but I couldn't blame them during a time where they are being culturally desecrated for another race's political gains. The "racism" that you stereotype onto them isn't inherent to their cause, it's a byproduct of the continued mistreatment and persecution of their people by an Empire that has forsaken them without a second thought.

No, the Stormcloaks ARE racist. Didn't you pay attention to the conversation when you first entered Windhelm? There are a group of Nords harassing a Dark Elf woman and then threatening her (I think it was to break into her house which kind of implies rape). Dark Elfs came to Windhelf after the events of Morrowind forced them to leave home, they essentially live in the slums of Windhelm. Argonians aren't even allowed into the city. I don't think Khajiit traders are allowed into any city in Skyrim. How is this not racist? None of this is a byproduct of the Empire outlawing Talos worship. Which they were really lax on enforcing. The Jarl of Solitude (who will likely be the High Queen of Skyrim) gives you a quest to make an offering at a Talos shrine for her husband. There are still shrines to Talos in the cities, like the one in Whiterun with the zealot preaching all the time.

 

[Soapy]

like the one in Whiterun with the zealot preaching all the time.

You know... if the Thalmoor wanted to come into Whiterun and "take care" of that guy, I would probably be willing to look the other way.

 

[Wolvieboy17]

I ate that guy as a werewolf. Also accidentally killed one of the Battleborns. It was a good night.

 

[Paladin-Hoss]

Wow...interesting discussion! it's cool to see that this game can spark this kind of debate.

Now..onto the man of the hour...ulfric. let's start with what he did to the boy king. In my opinion, it wasn't a duel, wasn't an assasination,heck it wasn't even a fight. It was a political move...Ulfric needed to make a point, and the boy king was it. Honour was the last thing on his mind.

I can't really see Ulfric as an 'evil' man...or even a bad guy.You know what they say about the road to hell...

He's kinda like Magneto to me, in that he really does care about his people. it's just that he goes about it the wrong way.

 

[Benstamania]

I can't seem to join the Brotherhood... Even if I create a new character with every intention to join them they all just come off just too creepy evil for me...

 

[Quasimod0]

Some of them are pretty nice. lol. But the whole thing with the night mother is creepy

 

[Coca Cola Duracell Franklin.]

Yeah, making an accord with your enemy to end a brutal war and avoid total defeat, enslavement, and possible genocide isn't "bending over", that's called "a compromise" and it's generally how big boys handle their problems. Also, you're forgetting that a lot of Nords don't seem to mind all that much.

They're not making a compromise, they're prolonging the inevitable. The ultimate plan of the Thalmor is to destroy mankind. If they're going to die anyway, they might as well live as free men.

What Roggvir said, that's just one side of the story. Plus, what he did is treason. Not only did he not protect his king, but he allowed the murderer to escape.

Torygg didn't have to accept the challenge, but he did, knowing the terms.

Also, if you're going to say the Empire doesn't respect The Way of The Land™, then the same thing can be said about Ulfric. Bringing a gun (thu'um) to a knife fight is hardly what I would consider "honorable combat". In MMORPG parlance, Ulfric ganked the High King.

Ulfric proved Torygg wasn't a worthy king. "The Way of The Land™"™ goes by the general rule "might makes right" and Torygg didn't have what it took. Maybe Torygg should have bothered to study a few thu'ums of his own.

A few bad apples doesn't mean the whole Empire is bad. And I'm pretty sure there are more than a few Nords in the Imperial Legion.

C'mon son.

And a few racist Stormcloaks doesn't make them all racist. And regarding the way the Empire handles things, I'd consider murder worse than discrimination. "Son."

It's not a moot point, it's a fact. The Empire didn't want to take their precious Talos away, he was a god to more than just the Nords after all, they're just enforcing the law of the White-Gold Concordant. And you can bet that the Dominion would move against the Empire again if they saw them in a weakened state after a potential Stormcloak victory and succession of Skyrim from the Empire. Then everybody would be ****ed. So if Ulfric isn't a traitor now, then he sure as **** would be if his actions started the collapse of the Empire and subsequent enslavement of all non-elves.

Again, The Aldmeri Dominion is going to continue their attacks on the Empire regardless of what they do. The Thalmor want humanity gone and the Empire is screwed. Degrading themselves to eak out, at most, a few more years of "peace" (despite mass political imprisonment) is accepting annihilation without honor.

 

[Benstamania]

I hope some of the DLC includes us wiping out the bloody Thalmor... Not that I know how that would be possible.. But I'm friggin' Dragonborn!

 

[The Morningstar]

haha yea. I hate those stuck up ********s.

On my next playthrough I might be a High Elf though.

 

[Soapy]

I hope some of the DLC includes us wiping out the bloody Thalmor... Not that I know how that would be possible.. But I'm friggin' Dragonborn!

Heh. I was hoping we would be able to join the Thalmor in one of the DLCs.

 

[Benstamania]

Well, it's Bethesda... probably have the option to do both or neither.

 

[Quasimod0]

I'd wanna go against em. Killing em was pretty fun in that mission where I was supposed to be stealthy

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

I saved Thorald Grey Mane singlehandedly by wiping out a whole Thalmor stronghold on my own.

 

[The Squirrel]

This thread is becoming as heated as the Politics forum.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

This is politics dammit! #Skyrimisseriousbusiness

 

[The Morningstar]

I saved Thorald Grey Mane singlehandedly by wiping out a whole Thalmor stronghold on my own.

haha same here. When I tried to go in and the guard was like "You cannot enter here" I just whipped out my trusty Skyforge Great Sword and slaughtered the lot of them.