Ellis on Thunderbolts??

:whatever:

The saddest part is, I probably wouldn't have minded a character like that if it were Ellis' own. But he's pretty much sacrificed a character I liked for the sake of very tepid, unoriginal humor because Ellis' word is law and paltry things like respect for a decades-old established character are beyond him.
 
Its got nothing to do with respect.

Its to do with writing an entertaining story.

If ellis feels the need to ignore a foot note like machine man's backstory to make it more entertaining then so be it.

Sorry but not all characters are equal, if a character is insignificant then chances are they are going to get reworked if a creator deems it so.

Besides nextwave is not really in continuity anyway.
 
Is this Penance guy supposed to be a mystery guy?Or are his identity and origins already known and established?
 
gildea said:
Its got nothing to do with respect.

Its to do with writing an entertaining story.

If ellis feels the need to ignore a foot note like machine man's backstory to make it more entertaining then so be it.

Sorry but not all characters are equal, if a character is insignificant then chances are they are going to get reworked if a creator deems it so.

Besides nextwave is not really in continuity anyway.
I never said they wouldn't. But as a fan of said "footnote character" I'm just as entitled to be annoyed at Ellis for ****ing him up as Ellis is to **** him up.

Besides, Nextwave isn't even an entertaining story. It's a forced, humorless wasteland of despair that depresses me whenever I look at it. :(
 
TheCorpulent1 said:
Besides, Nextwave isn't even an entertaining story. It's a forced, humorless wasteland of despair that depresses me whenever I look at it. :(

:up:

:yay:
 
gildea said:
Its got nothing to do with respect.

Its to do with writing an entertaining story.

If ellis feels the need to ignore a foot note like machine man's backstory to make it more entertaining then so be it.

Sorry but not all characters are equal, if a character is insignificant then chances are they are going to get reworked if a creator deems it so.

Besides nextwave is not really in continuity anyway.

Well then hey there... we have a bunch of angry people in the Spidey Forums mad at JMS for making Gwen Stacy sleep with Norman Osborne.

Maybe you could explain your logic to them. :woot: :woot: :woot:

:whatever:
 
Themanofbat said:
Well then hey there... we have a bunch of angry people in the Spidey Forums mad at JMS for making Gwen Stacy sleep with Norman Osborne.

Maybe you could explain your logic to them. :woot: :woot: :woot:

:whatever:



Gwen Stacy isn't a footnote character.
The influence of her death on peter is still felt to this day and as he is marvels biggest character she is far more important to them than machine man ever was or ever will be (most likely).
 
TheCorpulent1 said:
I never said they wouldn't. But as a fan of said "footnote character" I'm just as entitled to be annoyed at Ellis for ****ing him up as Ellis is to **** him up.

Besides, Nextwave isn't even an entertaining story. It's a forced, humorless wasteland of despair that depresses me whenever I look at it. :(
That's exactly why I dropped NEXTWAVE after the first 2 issues. The book is soul-less. And I dislike the concept of taking oft neglected C listers and warping them completely into cardboard comedy cliches of which they will never recover from. Once you go "goofy", it is very rare for said character to be seen seriously ever again by anyone else, especially if it's for over a year.
 
TheCorpulent1 said:
I never said they wouldn't. But as a fan of said "footnote character" I'm just as entitled to be annoyed at Ellis for ****ing him up as Ellis is to **** him up.

True.

Its just when people move from criticising the work to criticising the creator as a person (when its not john byrne) then I think it's unfair. Having said that ellis is no shrinking violet and his carfeully constructed online persona is probably designed for reactions like this so I don't suppose he can be absolved of anything.
 
Dread said:
. Once you go "goofy", it is very rare for said character to be seen seriously ever again by anyone else, especially if it's for over a year.

batman managed it ...;)
 
I rather like Nextwave. I really don't see how it's "soul-less."
 
gildea said:
batman managed it ...;)
In the Golden Age, Batman started out "gritty", or at least as gritty as a superhero could be in 1939. He's shoot vampires in the face, and randomly killed mobsters in his various adventures (some examples including randomly throwing a goon off a roof, or smashing his heel into the neck of some thug looking out a window). So, yes, he got goofy for a good 20 or so years until the 70's or 80's but the fact is that Batman was returning to his roots.

The other major difference is he is an A-lister. Always has been for DC and always will. The cast of NEXTWAVE are all C listers at best. The A-Listers can always be expected to maintain some status quo or eventually return to one, and are effectively immortal. But B and lower? If they get mangled, they stay that way for generations, if not forever. And if they die? You may have to wait a really long time to see a return, if ever. Hence why Bill Foster made a good target in the last issue of CW. He's not Cap or Wolverine or even Pym who you'd expect to someday return. He's a C-Lister. No one will miss him, or at least not in any substantial numbers. He's dirt-napped. Same for the New Warriors killed in Stamford. You really think anyone would resurrect Microbe? Or Night-Thrasher? Right.

All anyone will remember Machine Man, Photon, Boom-Boom, Elsa Bloodstone, etc, for at least the next 5 or so years is NEXTWAVE (which, while we're being technical, with MTU cancelled, it is now officially Marvel's worst selling ongoing). Now, Dirk Anger is a cypher for Nick Fury and he works because as a "spoof" character, he's not doing any damage to the "real" Nick Fury. But the others are.
 
Dread said:
In the Golden Age, Batman started out "gritty", or at least as gritty as a superhero could be in 1939. He's shoot vampires in the face, and randomly killed mobsters in his various adventures (some examples including randomly throwing a goon off a roof, or smashing his heel into the neck of some thug looking out a window). So, yes, he got goofy for a good 20 or so years until the 70's or 80's but the fact is that Batman was returning to his roots.

The other major difference is he is an A-lister. Always has been for DC and always will. The cast of NEXTWAVE are all C listers at best. The A-Listers can always be expected to maintain some status quo or eventually return to one, and are effectively immortal. But B and lower? If they get mangled, they stay that way for generations, if not forever. And if they die? You may have to wait a really long time to see a return, if ever. Hence why Bill Foster made a good target in the last issue of CW. He's not Cap or Wolverine or even Pym who you'd expect to someday return. He's a C-Lister. No one will miss him, or at least not in any substantial numbers. He's dirt-napped. Same for the New Warriors killed in Stamford. You really think anyone would resurrect Microbe? Or Night-Thrasher? Right.

All anyone will remember Machine Man, Photon, Boom-Boom, Elsa Bloodstone, etc, for at least the next 5 or so years is NEXTWAVE (which, while we're being technical, with MTU cancelled, it is now officially Marvel's worst selling ongoing). Now, Dirk Anger is a cypher for Nick Fury and he works because as a "spoof" character, he's not doing any damage to the "real" Nick Fury. But the others are.

I still don't see what the problem is. Sure, Nextwave is rather goofy. That's not a bad thing.
 
The Question said:
I still don't see what the problem is. Sure, Nextwave is rather goofy. That's not a bad thing.
Aside for doing considerable harm to C-Listers who really don't need any more harm heaped on them in the current Marvel climate (which never improves most characters), it just feels empty. By what I mean is, Dan Slott can write a comedy and still have it and the characters have a soul, have some sort of life, so it's not just some lifeless sketch after the other. NEXTWAVE feels like something on ADULT SWIM a lot of the time. It exists for a cheap laugh, the characters are flat and worthless, there is no plot. And sure that is okay, but to pay $3 a month for it was something I wasn't willing to do. I gave it a fair shot but it's not my cup of tea. You can write a comedy without having it be pretentious, empty, and with no characters. And no, the cast are not characters, there're cliched cyphers who exist to provide a punchline. If you consider them "characters", then Goofus and Gallant are "characters".
 
You know I think this might be enjoyable if only because I basically hate every character involved so much that anything Ellis can do to them is entirely justified.

roach said:
so while we are seeing pics of this team Venom wont officially join until issue 12 and Penance is the mystery character that'll appear once???

And they'll kill Carnage in the third issue.

Just because they can.
 
Dread said:
That's exactly why I dropped NEXTWAVE after the first 2 issues. The book is soul-less. And I dislike the concept of taking oft neglected C listers and warping them completely into cardboard comedy cliches of which they will never recover from. Once you go "goofy", it is very rare for said character to be seen seriously ever again by anyone else, especially if it's for over a year.

I greatly enjoy NextWave and don't consider it in continuity at all, Yeah some characters are mangled or put in the 'Goofy' box. Yet it's exactly what I expected and is a 'quick fix read' it's non-committal comics two issue arcs 'done in one', no fuss, no muss.

Plus when is the last time MM,Photon (Monica), and Boom-Boom got serious play from Marvel? Who really gave a rat's ass about Elsa Bloodstone? Now they do.

In a world of 6 and 9 issue arcs and summer events with 20 other tie-in books, NextWave I can buy a random issue and enjoy it for what it is. I can respect Ellis for that much he was the poster child for decompression and now with 'Fell' and NextWave theirs two books from the guy who's work used to get tiresome to me.
 
Dread said:
Aside for doing considerable harm to C-Listers who really don't need any more harm heaped on them in the current Marvel climate (which never improves most characters), it just feels empty. By what I mean is, Dan Slott can write a comedy and still have it and the characters have a soul, have some sort of life, so it's not just some lifeless sketch after the other. NEXTWAVE feels like something on ADULT SWIM a lot of the time. It exists for a cheap laugh, the characters are flat and worthless, there is no plot. And sure that is okay, but to pay $3 a month for it was something I wasn't willing to do. I gave it a fair shot but it's not my cup of tea. You can write a comedy without having it be pretentious, empty, and with no characters. And no, the cast are not characters, there're cliched cyphers who exist to provide a punchline. If you consider them "characters", then Goofus and Gallant are "characters".

I really don't think it's pretentious. And I think saying that they're not characters is a little extreme. I guess I enjoy it because I'm an avid watcher of Adult Swim, so it's right up my alley.
 
The Question said:
I really don't think it's pretentious. And I think saying that they're not characters is a little extreme. I guess I enjoy it because I'm an avid watcher of Adult Swim, so it's right up my alley.

Heh..me too.

Also, NextWave works for me because I don't have to buy every issue to enjoy the book. Two issue arcs have got me hooked.

I give Ellis credit for recognizing that you can tell a complete (No matter how looney..) story in three issues or less on a regular basis.
 
deemar325 said:
Heh..me too.

Also, NextWave works for me because I don't have to buy every issue to enjoy the book. Two issue arcs have got me hooked.

I give Ellis credit for recognizing that you can tell a complete (No matter how looney..) story in three issues or less on a regular basis.

Pretty much. Besides, I don't really see the characters as being ruined. Simply used in a comedic setting.
 
Whoever takes NextWave seriously and think the characters are being depicted faithfully (and by that I mean in continuity) is really being overly sensitive. From the introduction page it tells you what kind of comic it is. I'm not particular to Adult Swim and I enjoy NextWave a lot. A couple of the people b!tch!ng are posters known to be irreverent in threads, WTF?! It's only funny when you're doing it?:rolleyes: And then they rag on Adult Swim, LOL. Shut up you Robot Chicken addicts and stop being hypocrites.:D:p
 
deemar325 said:
I greatly enjoy NextWave and don't consider it in continuity at all, Yeah some characters are mangled or put in the 'Goofy' box. Yet it's exactly what I expected and is a 'quick fix read' it's non-committal comics two issue arcs 'done in one', no fuss, no muss.
Hence why I felt I didn't have to commit after the first two issues. ;)

Plus when is the last time MM,Photon (Monica), and Boom-Boom got serious play from Marvel? Who really gave a rat's ass about Elsa Bloodstone? Now they do.
I mention this all the time about CW, "When was the last time you saw the New Warriors being used anywhere?", but it comes off as a bitter pill as half the founders are dead, their name is mud and Speedball is a pariah (who may die whenever Jenkins wants a bonus check).

I pose this choice; would you rather a C-Lister spend years in Limbo, or be used, but act nothing like themselves, be used in a manner in which they're a cardboard cypher, and their only recent experience (i.e., the experience Marvel's executives use) will be said title? I'd rather them in limbo, thanks. Then I could hope somewhere in the future they could be used seriously and efficiently. Sure, people know who Elsa Bloodstone is. But all they know her as is a British femm stereotype with huge knockers who serves as a cypher for Lara Croft. And you could argue she WAS made to copy Lara Croft. But she could grow beyond that. Thanks to Nextwave, she never will. I'll call it now. It's all she'll be remembered for for the next 5 years at least. Same with all the others.

Again, if Ellis had just created spoofs, like Dirk Anger or "The Captain", then I could live with it. But when you mangle C-Listers like that who can't bounce back from being mishandled like an A or even B lister sometimes can, then I tune out.

Name me the last time a C-List character was used as a goofy comic relief in a soul-less narrative for over a year and then returned in a serious, competant manner for a purpose OTHER than to die. At Marvel. She-Hulk doesn't count. Her book's not a pure comedy.

In a world of 6 and 9 issue arcs and summer events with 20 other tie-in books, NextWave I can buy a random issue and enjoy it for what it is. I can respect Ellis for that much he was the poster child for decompression and now with 'Fell' and NextWave theirs two books from the guy who's work used to get tiresome to me.
I just figured a book whose characters have no souls, where the skits are as random as AQUA TEAM HUNGER FORCE (lord, I could almost kill Monty Python for convincing every comedic wanna-be that "random" is instantly funny; it's not. Sometimes it works and sometimes it makes you wonder what kind of acid the writer was on) and that's just not my thing.

Oh, and I could say the same "non-decompressed" thing about X-MEN: FIRST CLASS. It's a fun superhero book. Sure, the major flaw is that if it's the adventures of the teen X-Men, then it's "ten years ago" and you can't have modern references or designs for Cerebro. But compared to NEXTWAVE, that's nothing. The first issue was good clean fun. But like Nextwave, it's pointless. Do I hear anyone singing that book's praises?

Compressed stories alone aren't enough for me. It has to be part of a whole package and to me Nextwave was a title that did more harm to the MU than good for me.
 
To be honest I kinda like Ellis' MachineMan better than the original (Boring) MM. He's kinda the type of character that should be made fun of his names MachineMan! I can't really take take seriously.
 
Really, how is this ruining the characters? Since when was comedy a bad thing to happen to a character?
 

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