Dread
TMNT 1984-2009
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I can concede a point if legitmately proven wrong. I've even apologized a few times at SHH when I've sometimes just been an ass. It happens.Tropico said:Luke Cage. But I'm sure you're going to tell me that Cage was never a C-lister, wasn't a parody (in his Max mini) or wasn't all done under Quesadilla's tenure. Or say that you then mentioned that 5 year thing. You almost always have an out.It's like Corp said, no one concedes anything here.
You have a point on Cage. He was a C-Lister before Bendis tinkered with him, sure enough (before that he'd be lucky to get guest gigs between H4H relaunches). I'm not sure about whether he was really a "parody" character in the way that everyone in NEXTWAVE is, but I didn't read his MAX mini so I can't be sure, and won't assume I am. Cage surely went from flat blaxploitation stereotype to Marvel B-Lister within a year or so because of Bendis' interest (much like the Purple Man too).
To be honest, I'm not in as foul a mood as I was yesterday and considering the Jan. solicts are in and NEXTWAVE is a dead book walking, pounding it into the grave may just be a waste of time now.
I guess NEXTWAVE is "acclaimed" in the same way ARRESTED DEVELOPMENT was "acclaimed"; only critics watched it and liked it (now before I have everyone going, "Omigod, Dread hated ARRESTED DEVELOPMENT too!", I just want to note that I only saw one episode, and actually found it quite funny. I just was using it as an example). Anyway, like I said before, it's a dead book walking so my urge to kick it when it's down is lessoned.gildea said:
You have a good point, my question about NEXTWAVE was whether it was the RIGHT sort of limelight for these characters. Some fans are like, "ANYTHING! Just have _____ show up!", but sometimes bad or inaccurate appearences can, yes, be far worse than none at all, because if a bad or inaccurate depiction is repeated or became the norm, then it becomes part of the character's "mythos" and then editers/writers are afraid to change it.
Look at Darkhawk. Before RUNAWAYS vol. 2 it was, what, maybe 5+ years since he showed up anywhere? I'm sure he could have popped up or been made into a parody character (as he is very simular to a Power Ranger if you wanted to get silly in terms of his transformation, or even a Silverhawk), but instead he sat on the shelf until Vaughan came along with Excelsior for RUNAWAYS, and that spawned an appearence on MTU and soon a LONERS co-starring role. Would this have happened if he was turned into a cliched goofball (which he EASILY could have been)? I can't say no...but I can presume it'd have been less likely. Because then Darkhawk would have had extra "baggage" and Vaughan would probably have had a harder time convincing readers of his angle.
Maybe an analogy: an actor tries to get big in the industry, but his dramatic roles go nowhere and go underappreciated. But he does a comedy or two and suddenly he gets more notice. He becomes known for comedy. But now he wants to move onto something else but the parts won't come for something OTHER than comedy. I know the acting world and the comics world don't work exactly the same, but my point is that presumptions based on a work that garnered "recent attention", especially for figures that haven't seen any in years, creates assumptions in both the audience and the industry figures that can become self-fulfilling. NEXTWAVE, with Ellis' warping of the characters he didn't create into whatever skit he wanted, I feel carries that risk. That's why I couldn't stand it after 2 issues, and why I won't mourn it when it's gone.
This sometimes works at Marvel when the change is GOOD, though; the GLA/X have popped up a few times in a simular mold to Slott's work. Other writers have acceptted Bendis' New Avengers cast and used them appropriately. Purple Man has also been a big leaguer now without Bendis' pen. But on the downside, Millar's Electro work was all but ignored. It's a give 'an take. I just don't have faith that NEXTWAVE will have been the "best" kind of limelight. I'd rather a character make rare but strong appearences than frequent but flawed or underwhelming ones, IMO.
And onto your Speedball point...
I don't think Marvel's editorial climate is the same as DC's but I never said anything about "good DC writers become crap here". Or maybe I did, I don't know. Speaking of Giffen and ANNIHILATION, I guess you missed me all but kissing his rear for issue #3 at the BOUGHT/THOUGHT. That's another little tidbit about MB's that's irksome. I can praise something, and it won't get nearly as much attention as when I bash something. Granted, I guess praise can only offer simple agreement while a criticism can spark a debate.Tropico said:
Speedball is probably a better example than Cage was to me as he was CLEARLY a goofball character for a while. Of course, you could also say that he's been built up just to die, like Blue Beetle was. True, we don't know how FRONTLINE or CIVIL WAR will end, but it doesn't look good for Robbie's survival. Like I said before, I'm waiting for him to get nailed to a cross and beg his father to "forgive them, they know not what they do" in some self-important spectacle. Too many characters, frankly, only are treated seriously when they're marching to the guillotine. Some may say, "Better for a character to die in a blaze of glory than live but languish for nothing"; lord knows even moderate Marvel fans won't forget who Speedball was for some time. But he's a character who's got a lot of room to grow, and it would be a waste to kill him off, especially now. But as Joe Q would all be willing to offer a bonus check to whichever writer axes him, I wonder if FRONTLINE is prepping Robbie for Millar to pull the trigger in the next issue of CW or he'll die proper from Jenkins in FRONTLINE.
I mentioned my point about rarely used characters above. I mean it's possible that Speedball is being prepped to grow up like Nova is, but I just don't see it as likely right now, especially with him clinging to life in the last FL issue and Joe Q's historical deathwish for the character. I'm predicting a BLUE BEETLE here. He'll be built up just to die so his death will mean something and spark something. And naturally like Ted Kord, some people will love it and some will hate it. At least Kord had a noble death (he stared a villian in the face and basically said, "F-You!"); if Speedball croaks blaming himself for Stamford and wishing he'd never been a hero, that's just a tortured downer. Lord knows Wolverine'd have more to be remourseful over.
When you put it like that, I agree. Depending on the circumstance, it shouldn't be used by a character describing an otherwise nasty villian. And perhaps it also could become a self-fulfilling prophecy for some characters, like I feared NEXTWAVE would be.fifthfiend said:
Finally addressing the topic: I've never read THUNDERBOLTS, nor did I really care for a franchise that sought to remove otherwise decent villians from rogue's galleries (that's a whole OTHER debate I've had), but I do agree that switching the main writer and cast just to capitlize on CW may feel like a sham for some fans. Some people go, "Oh, they're ripping off Secret Six", but Secret Six has no A-Listers on it. Bullseye, Green Goblin, and Venom are all higher on the totem pole than even revisioned Catman. But fans of the THUNDERBOLTS have a right to feel empty, even if Marvel's giving them and the series writer a token "oh, here" sort of one-shot. As for how Ellis will write it? Aside for NEXTWAVE, I actually liked some of his Marvel work, at least Ultimate, although it's decompressed as hell and ULTIMATE GALACTUS was underwhelming (as was Goat-Doom, which Millar thankfully ignored). Granted, Ultimate doesn't have the years of continuity to follow.
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