Dread
TMNT 1984-2009
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2001
- Messages
- 21,788
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 31
I can concede a point if legitmately proven wrong. I've even apologized a few times at SHH when I've sometimes just been an ass. It happens.Tropico said:Luke Cage. But I'm sure you're going to tell me that Cage was never a C-lister, wasn't a parody (in his Max mini) or wasn't all done under Quesadilla's tenure. Or say that you then mentioned that 5 year thing. You almost always have an out.It's like Corp said, no one concedes anything here.
![]()
You have a point on Cage. He was a C-Lister before Bendis tinkered with him, sure enough (before that he'd be lucky to get guest gigs between H4H relaunches). I'm not sure about whether he was really a "parody" character in the way that everyone in NEXTWAVE is, but I didn't read his MAX mini so I can't be sure, and won't assume I am. Cage surely went from flat blaxploitation stereotype to Marvel B-Lister within a year or so because of Bendis' interest (much like the Purple Man too).
To be honest, I'm not in as foul a mood as I was yesterday and considering the Jan. solicts are in and NEXTWAVE is a dead book walking, pounding it into the grave may just be a waste of time now.
I guess NEXTWAVE is "acclaimed" in the same way ARRESTED DEVELOPMENT was "acclaimed"; only critics watched it and liked it (now before I have everyone going, "Omigod, Dread hated ARRESTED DEVELOPMENT too!", I just want to note that I only saw one episode, and actually found it quite funny. I just was using it as an example). Anyway, like I said before, it's a dead book walking so my urge to kick it when it's down is lessoned.gildea said:Speedball.
Anyway as a sort of reversal of this argument how many acclaimed series under joe q's tenure have been written about monica, machine man etc?
As far as I'm aware they've been absent for a while but there was no comedy series featuring them before this was there?
Its not to the comedy that kills these characters its because in general no one wants to use them. Not the writers, not the company and in general the fans don't want to read about them.
Heck people should be greatful ellis has given them a bit of limelight...
You have a good point, my question about NEXTWAVE was whether it was the RIGHT sort of limelight for these characters. Some fans are like, "ANYTHING! Just have _____ show up!", but sometimes bad or inaccurate appearences can, yes, be far worse than none at all, because if a bad or inaccurate depiction is repeated or became the norm, then it becomes part of the character's "mythos" and then editers/writers are afraid to change it.
Look at Darkhawk. Before RUNAWAYS vol. 2 it was, what, maybe 5+ years since he showed up anywhere? I'm sure he could have popped up or been made into a parody character (as he is very simular to a Power Ranger if you wanted to get silly in terms of his transformation, or even a Silverhawk), but instead he sat on the shelf until Vaughan came along with Excelsior for RUNAWAYS, and that spawned an appearence on MTU and soon a LONERS co-starring role. Would this have happened if he was turned into a cliched goofball (which he EASILY could have been)? I can't say no...but I can presume it'd have been less likely. Because then Darkhawk would have had extra "baggage" and Vaughan would probably have had a harder time convincing readers of his angle.
Maybe an analogy: an actor tries to get big in the industry, but his dramatic roles go nowhere and go underappreciated. But he does a comedy or two and suddenly he gets more notice. He becomes known for comedy. But now he wants to move onto something else but the parts won't come for something OTHER than comedy. I know the acting world and the comics world don't work exactly the same, but my point is that presumptions based on a work that garnered "recent attention", especially for figures that haven't seen any in years, creates assumptions in both the audience and the industry figures that can become self-fulfilling. NEXTWAVE, with Ellis' warping of the characters he didn't create into whatever skit he wanted, I feel carries that risk. That's why I couldn't stand it after 2 issues, and why I won't mourn it when it's gone.
This sometimes works at Marvel when the change is GOOD, though; the GLA/X have popped up a few times in a simular mold to Slott's work. Other writers have acceptted Bendis' New Avengers cast and used them appropriately. Purple Man has also been a big leaguer now without Bendis' pen. But on the downside, Millar's Electro work was all but ignored. It's a give 'an take. I just don't have faith that NEXTWAVE will have been the "best" kind of limelight. I'd rather a character make rare but strong appearences than frequent but flawed or underwhelming ones, IMO.
And onto your Speedball point...
I don't think Marvel's editorial climate is the same as DC's but I never said anything about "good DC writers become crap here". Or maybe I did, I don't know. Speaking of Giffen and ANNIHILATION, I guess you missed me all but kissing his rear for issue #3 at the BOUGHT/THOUGHT. That's another little tidbit about MB's that's irksome. I can praise something, and it won't get nearly as much attention as when I bash something. Granted, I guess praise can only offer simple agreement while a criticism can spark a debate.Tropico said:See, I thought of him, too. Heck, the whole of the New Warriors were parodies of themselves in Reality Bites. The thing is that Dread asks for "years of being ridiculed", even though NextWave isn't years of having fun with a couple of characters, so I didn't mention him because I'm pretty sure that he'll say that it wasn't "years of being ridiculed" it was only one mini. Sure, Robbie is being treated like crap right now, but he's being handled in a serious fashion; look at that, he bounced back from a parodical comic. It fits what he should be asking for, if he wants to be fair to comparing it to Nextwave, but he asks for more (of course).
I totally understand your points. The thing is that there are people here who say that it's best for unpopular characters to remain in the dark, collecting dust and not even receive a shred of recognition until some brilliant writer comes along and writes brilliantly. I can't even use DC examples because somehow the way that Marvel makes its comics it's totally anathema to how DC does them and the same writers who did brilliant work at DC suddenly become morons when they come to Marvel. I mean, it's not like Waid can write good stuff for Marvel, right? You won't see Giffen writing for a genre that Marvel had decided to all but drop and do it better than their main event. Nope, none of the things that writers can do at DC can be done at Marvel, and that's mainly why I'm so hard pressed to find any valid examples for what the people are asking here.
Speedball is probably a better example than Cage was to me as he was CLEARLY a goofball character for a while. Of course, you could also say that he's been built up just to die, like Blue Beetle was. True, we don't know how FRONTLINE or CIVIL WAR will end, but it doesn't look good for Robbie's survival. Like I said before, I'm waiting for him to get nailed to a cross and beg his father to "forgive them, they know not what they do" in some self-important spectacle. Too many characters, frankly, only are treated seriously when they're marching to the guillotine. Some may say, "Better for a character to die in a blaze of glory than live but languish for nothing"; lord knows even moderate Marvel fans won't forget who Speedball was for some time. But he's a character who's got a lot of room to grow, and it would be a waste to kill him off, especially now. But as Joe Q would all be willing to offer a bonus check to whichever writer axes him, I wonder if FRONTLINE is prepping Robbie for Millar to pull the trigger in the next issue of CW or he'll die proper from Jenkins in FRONTLINE.
I mentioned my point about rarely used characters above. I mean it's possible that Speedball is being prepped to grow up like Nova is, but I just don't see it as likely right now, especially with him clinging to life in the last FL issue and Joe Q's historical deathwish for the character. I'm predicting a BLUE BEETLE here. He'll be built up just to die so his death will mean something and spark something. And naturally like Ted Kord, some people will love it and some will hate it. At least Kord had a noble death (he stared a villian in the face and basically said, "F-You!"); if Speedball croaks blaming himself for Stamford and wishing he'd never been a hero, that's just a tortured downer. Lord knows Wolverine'd have more to be remourseful over.
When you put it like that, I agree. Depending on the circumstance, it shouldn't be used by a character describing an otherwise nasty villian. And perhaps it also could become a self-fulfilling prophecy for some characters, like I feared NEXTWAVE would be.fifthfiend said:Basically the problem I have with it is that writers and editors use these terms, in particular, that writers in the course of their actual writing insert these terms into the mouths of their characters, so we are continually treated to the spectacle of Daredevil happening upon some attempted rape or murder or whatever and saying oh yawn it's Jester, he's like a z-lister or something why can't I happen upon an attempted rape and/or murder by someone important? Instead of happening upon an attempted murder/rape and saying oh ****, the Jester is trying to rape and murder human beings, how am I gonna stop him before he kills or rapes someone?
I'm not even saying there isn't a place for heroes recognizing the relative seriousness of the assorted threats with which they have to deal, I'm just saying there's probably a place for doing that without reducing the entire edifice of superheroics down to some ridiculous high-school popularity contest.
Finally addressing the topic: I've never read THUNDERBOLTS, nor did I really care for a franchise that sought to remove otherwise decent villians from rogue's galleries (that's a whole OTHER debate I've had), but I do agree that switching the main writer and cast just to capitlize on CW may feel like a sham for some fans. Some people go, "Oh, they're ripping off Secret Six", but Secret Six has no A-Listers on it. Bullseye, Green Goblin, and Venom are all higher on the totem pole than even revisioned Catman. But fans of the THUNDERBOLTS have a right to feel empty, even if Marvel's giving them and the series writer a token "oh, here" sort of one-shot. As for how Ellis will write it? Aside for NEXTWAVE, I actually liked some of his Marvel work, at least Ultimate, although it's decompressed as hell and ULTIMATE GALACTUS was underwhelming (as was Goat-Doom, which Millar thankfully ignored). Granted, Ultimate doesn't have the years of continuity to follow.