Ethical Discussion on Cosmetic Surgery

[kainedamo]

I personally believe you are wrong and that unless there is a high risk of the surgery killing someone, it's completely fine and is no worse than piercings, so let people have all the designer vagina's, nose jobs, face lifts, boob jobs, pec implants, butt implants, eye lifts ect they want, if it makes them feel happier in themselves (which it normally does) no one else has the right to say it's wrong.

It's not the same thing at all.

How can you compare potentially dangerous, possibly for life scarring if something goes wrong, possible long term side effects and health issues, to getting your ears pierced? Nutso.

 

[knowsbleed]

You're wrong Blutac... Kaine has the right. He has and is right. You have no idea how wrong you are in the fact that he's right...

I... seriously... wonder if every documentary Kaine watches has this effect on him.

 

[knowsbleed]

It's not the same thing at all.

How can you compare potentially dangerous, possibly for life scarring if something goes wrong, possible long term side effects and health issues, to getting your ears pierced? Nutso.

You do know that not all plastic surgery is that extreme don't you? Of course you do... you've done your research. You've watched a documentary.

 

[kainedamo]

Nah, I've felt this way about cosmetic surgery for a while. I feel oddly passionate about it. But I've noticed, you guys are passionate from the opposite side, which is kinda odd. I wonder if its because most of you are Americans. Different culture and all.

 

[Captain_BluTac]

Some people cannot lose extra weight with exercise

I was actually about to bring this up, my mum (who is disabled) had a stomach bypass, thich although technically a cosmetic surgery, she had it to save her life, now my mum wasn't lazy, she wasn't some slob who spends all day eating, but she was like the perfect storm of disabled people and can barely move ect so her surgery was a need rather than a want, but by th OP's reckoning, what she did was wrong, which is something I think most people would find extremely ignorant.

 

[The Senator]

Nah, I've felt this way about cosmetic surgery for a while. I feel oddly passionate about it. But I've noticed, you guys are passionate from the opposite side, which is kinda odd. I wonder if its because most of you are Americans. Different culture and all.

Yes, us blood-thirsty, self-centered, self-righteous, alcoholic, racist, xenophobic, redneck Americans are quite obsessed with plastic surgery and think that everyone should go out and have it done...

 

[The Senator]

So... when I trim my fingernails, does that mean I'm mutilating my body

 

[jaguarr]

Jag... why are you comparing two forms of self-improvement that aren't even slightly comparable?

When it comes to motivations for doing them, the fact that there are both healthy and unhealthy aspects of engaging in them, and that there are people who will do them for the "wrong" reasons just as much as there are people who will do them for the "right" reasons, they are absolutely comparable.

For me, getting fitter is about a number of things. Number 1, being healthier (I wanna live longer and be able to do more and such).

I honestly don't get that from the numerous questions you ask about how to lose fat in your belly/get rid of your gut.

Number 2, looking better. Number 3, getting happier. You're twisting the term "why can't you just be happy with yourself".

No I'm not. Either people are happy with themselves as they are, and accept themselves as is or they don't and take steps to improve themselves so they ARE happy with themselves. Period. YOU are imposing conditions to say "well, it's okay to be unhappy with your appearance and do something about it ONLY if you do so in a way that I find healthy and acceptable". That is a cop-out. Apply your rule across all people and things or don't apply it at all.

Think back over the thread. Think about the girls I've talked about, the ones insecure about their vagoos. At any point, did I ever say "these girls should just lie in bed and get over it"?? No. I did not. So don't put words in my mouth.

In essence, you did say that though:

Not necassarily. What's wrong with trying to help a person be happy with the way they are? I think that's very healthy. If after a lengthy discussion with a doctor, and encouragement from the doctor to see someone appropriate about boosting self image and confidence, if the person still wants surgery - fine.

So, which side of your initial argument are you going to stick to? The one where people should just be happy with the way they are, period? Or are you now going to continue to backslide and add conditions to it as you have been?

What I have said, is that there are healthier ways of dealing with it. You should surely be able to understand that.

What's the healthier way for someone to deal with a lazy eye they want fixed or a nose that they find incredibly ugly and demoralizing, then?

Going off to a butcher for mutilation may not be the best solution in some cases.

Mutilation? Seriously? Could you be a little more melodramatic in lieu of actually having an argument? If these things are really mutilations then I have seen some GORGEOUS mutilations.

Don't think it's irrelevant at all. You don't think that someone that would even consider letting a person put a knife to their private parts simply for the sake of aesthetics may not be altogether mentally healthy? It's mutilation.

I was addressing anorexia as a mental health issue. You are talking about something completely different. And honestly, having vaginal surgery to improve it's appearance is no different than having that earlobe that hangs too low fixed or the droopy eye corrected to match the other one as far as I'm concerned. And if you apply the word "mutilation" to the concept of cosmetic surgery one more time I'm going to go into the Bat Forums and tell everyone in it that you thought The Joker was gay and that anyone who has a problem with that should PM you.

jag

 

[knowsbleed]

Hahahaaa... seriously.

 

[kainedamo]

Getting some links about cosmetic surgery.

http://studentslife.zoni.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=146&Itemid=36

It is tragic that many people fail to realize that the complications arising from cosmetic procedures require further corrective surgeries at a great cost. For example, a teenage girl receiving breast implants may combat subsequent infection and hardening of the breasts and may have to undergo corrective surgery or replacement of the implants.

Cosmetic surgery and feminism...

http://christinasocialpsych.blogspot.com/2007/10/women-and-knife.html

http://www.thelegalline.co.uk/news/cosmetic-surgery-clinical-negligence-medical-neglience-news.html

It has recently been reported that up to 20% of private healthcare complaints are in relation to cosmetic surgery.

http://www.aboardcertifiedplasticsurgeonresource.com/cosmetic/dangers.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...ients-dangers-of-cosmetic-surgery-572917.html

Half of cosmetic clinics offering "quickie" treatments are failing to inform their patients of the potential dangers of procedures such as Botox injections, an investigation reveals today.

http://www.etraffic.co.za/affiliates-themac-cosmetic-surgery2.html

 

[knowsbleed]

When you look for negative aspects of anything... you're sure to find them. This doesn't really help your argument at all because nobody was arguing about whether plastic/cosmetic surgery had side effects or not. So all that effort you placed towards posting all those links were really for nothing.

 

[Captain_BluTac]

Going to feminism is a bit stupid gender equality has got to the point now where feminism is no longer relevant, so if you're gonna cling onto a failing argument at least be sensible in how you do it.

 

[The Senator]

Getting some links about cosmetic surgery.

http://studentslife.zoni.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=146&Itemid=36



Cosmetic surgery and feminism...

http://christinasocialpsych.blogspot.com/2007/10/women-and-knife.html

http://www.thelegalline.co.uk/news/cosmetic-surgery-clinical-negligence-medical-neglience-news.html



http://www.aboardcertifiedplasticsurgeonresource.com/cosmetic/dangers.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...ients-dangers-of-cosmetic-surgery-572917.html



http://www.etraffic.co.za/affiliates-themac-cosmetic-surgery2.html

This is awesome....


Except the debate isn't whether or not there is a danger to plastic surgery.

The debate is really why do YOU care so much about what people decide to do to themselves?

 

[jaguarr]

When you look for negative aspects of anything... you're sure to find them. This doesn't really help your argument at all because nobody was arguing about whether plastic/cosmetic surgery had side effects or not. So all that effort you placed towards posting all those links were really for nothing.

jag

 

[kainedamo]

When it comes to motivations for doing them, the fact that there are both healthy and unhealthy aspects of engaging in them, and that there are people who will do them for the "wrong" reasons just as much as there are people who will do them for the "right" reasons, they are absolutely comparable.

I'll give you that. There are always people like this in anything. Sports, porn, politics, you name it.

No I'm not. Either people are happy with themselves as they are, and accept themselves as is or they don't and take steps to improve themselves so they ARE happy with themselves. Period. YOU are imposing conditions to say "well, it's okay to be unhappy with your appearance and do something about it ONLY if you do so in a way that I find healthy and acceptable". That is a cop-out. Apply your rule across all people and things or don't apply it at all.

You're talking in circles, jag, and going off the mark a bit. Having a healthy attitude about how to look after yourself is part of being happy with yourself.

It's not about what I find healthy and acceptable. It's about common sense. You're an African American that's unhappy being too black (yes, black people get cosmetic surgery to get a lighter skin tone) - is it healthier to a) get surgery to get a lighter skin tone. b) get some sort of counselling to sort that crap out.

So, which side of your initial argument are you going to stick to? The one where people should just be happy with the way they are, period? Or are you now going to continue to backslide and add conditions to it as you have been?

I've been very consistent. You've been trying to twist words and going into circular arguments.

I'll phrase it this way. If a person is unhappy with themselves, there are any number of ways they can deal with that. Some ways are better than others.

What's the healthier way for someone to deal with a lazy eye they want fixed or a nose that they find incredibly ugly and demoralizing, then?

What if the person that wants their nose fixed is Jewish? It seems to me that cosmetic surgery and the celebrity indjustry glamorizes a very specific western and hollywoodized attractiveness.

Mutilation? Seriously? Could you be a little more melodramatic in lieu of actually having an argument? If these things are really mutilations then I have seen some GORGEOUS mutilations.

And we've seen some horrible ones, too. We've seen ALOT that lead to lifelong problems.

I was addressing anorexia as a mental health issue. You are talking about something completely different. And honestly, having vaginal surgery to improve it's appearance is no different than having that earlobe that hangs too low fixed or the droopy eye corrected to match the other one as far as I'm concerned. And if you apply the word "mutilation" to the concept of cosmetic surgery one more time I'm going to go into the Bat Forums and tell everyone in it that you thought The Joker was gay and that anyone who has a problem with that should PM you.

Mutilation, mutilation, mutilation. I consider male circumcision on unsuspecting babies to be mutilation too, but that's another acceptable American pastime. And yeah, the whole concept of women resorting to vaginal surgery because some men find the flaps unattractive is not only horrifying, but completely uncomparable to fixing a droopy eye.

 

[kainedamo]

This is awesome....


Except the debate isn't whether or not there is a danger to plastic surgery.

The debate is really why do YOU care so much about what people decide to do to themselves?

The debate is about a number of things. For one thing, society's attitudes. You missed the link about feminism and cosmetic surgery.

 

[kainedamo]

Going to feminism is a bit stupid gender equality has got to the point now where feminism is no longer relevant, so if you're gonna cling onto a failing argument at least be sensible in how you do it.

How about addressing specific points of the link?

 

[kainedamo]

I'll try to steer this in another direction.


Why do we live in a society where people feel like they have to get cosmetic surgery?

Why are ever increasing amounts of young women getting breast implants?

 

[Darthphere]

Oh yes, the old CellSlim tactic. You have a weak point so you just bring out some random links that have little to do with what you initially brought up.

 

[jaguarr]

I'll give you that. There are always people like this in anything. Sports, porn, politics, you name it.

We may have had a breakthrough. I'm not betting on it, though.

You're talking in circles, jag, and going off the mark a bit. Having a healthy attitude about how to look after yourself is part of being happy with yourself.

Just because you don't understand the philosophical underpinnings of my arguments does not make them circular. If anything, you're the one who's position has a circular circumference, to be honest.

It's not about what I find healthy and acceptable. It's about common sense.

But it IS about what YOU find healthy and acceptable. It's completely subjective on your part.

You're an African American that's unhappy being too black (yes, black people get cosmetic surgery to get a lighter skin tone) - is it healthier to a) get surgery to get a lighter skin tone. b) get some sort of counselling to sort that crap out.

That's entirely up to the PERSON with the issue, isn't it?

I've been very consistent. You've been trying to twist words and going into circular arguments.

You've had your arguments used against you and don't know how to address it, so you're just trying to dismiss them as "circular". Nice try.

I'll phrase it this way. If a person is unhappy with themselves, there are any number of ways they can deal with that. Some ways are better than others.

So you don't have an answer.

What if the person that wants their nose fixed is Jewish? It seems to me that cosmetic surgery and the celebrity indjustry glamorizes a very specific western and hollywoodized attractiveness.

So? What if they want their nose fixed? So what?

And we've seen some horrible ones, too. We've seen ALOT that lead to lifelong problems.

So? It's their body. Not yours. Why do you care what they do with it?

Mutilation, mutilation, mutilation.

I consider male circumcision on unsuspecting babies to be mutilation too, but that's another acceptable American pastime. And yeah, the whole concept of women resorting to vaginal surgery because some men find the flaps unattractive is not only horrifying, but completely uncomparable to fixing a droopy eye.

Did it ever occur to you that women have these things done because THEY find them unattractive? They are absolutely comparable to any other corrective surgery. And American's by FAR have not cornered the market on circumcision.

jag

 

[kainedamo]

Oh yes, the old CellSlim tactic. You have a weak point so you just bring out some random links that have little to do with what you initially brought up.

It's ALL relevant to the discussion

You guys enjoy asking me why I feel passionately about this.

Why do YOU guys seem oddly passionately in favor of it? Seriously, you're all like, really gung-ho about it

 

[Darthphere]

It's ALL relevant to the discussion

You guys enjoy asking me why I feel passionately about this.

Why do YOU guys seem oddly passionately in favor of it? Seriously, you're all like, really gung-ho about it

We're not, well at least I'm not passionate about it either way, we, well I just don't give a **** and wonder why you do.

 

[knowsbleed]

I'll try to steer this in another direction.


Why do we live in a society where people feel like they have to get cosmetic surgery?

Because people can afford it and the procedures are cheaper than they used to be.

Why are ever increasing amounts of young women getting breast implants?

Because they know men like boobs.
Because they want to get laid too.
Because they know lesbians like boobs.
Because they want to get laid by their lesbian partners.
Because they want bigger boobs to feel good about themselves.
Because they have the freedom to make that decision.



Here's one for you, off topic but soo very on topic. Why do we live in a society where people have no business sticking their noses in something that doesn't apply to them at all... but they do it anyway?

 

[jaguarr]

It's ALL relevant to the discussion

You guys enjoy asking me why I feel passionately about this.

Why do YOU guys seem oddly passionately in favor of it? Seriously, you're all like, really gung-ho about it

I am passionately in favor of people owning their own bodies and doing whatever the hell they feel like doing with them without being harassed about it by people with some sort of misguided moral and philosophical axe to grind about things that don't affect them in the least.

jag

 

[kainedamo]

But it IS about what YOU find healthy and acceptable. It's completely subjective on your part.

I'm not alone in my views. I'm trying to have some sort of half decent discussion about why it is, as a society, people feel so pressured that they're willing to undergo potentially dangerous surgery. Like, what are the ramifications of a society where going under the knife is an acceptable quick fix to many percieved physical problems.

That's entirely up to the PERSON with the issue, isn't it?

Even if they are 18, and their bodies haven't fully developed?

You've had your arguments used against you and don't know how to address it, so you're just trying to dismiss them as "circular". Nice try.



So you don't have an answer.

What exactly is it that I should answer? You purposely misused the phrase "being happy with yourself" to imply that I think, though I haven't said it anywhere, that people should just "get over it". How many times do I have to say it? How many different ways can I say that there are different ways of dealing with things?

So? What if they want their nose fixed? So what?



So? It's their body. Not yours. Why do you care what they do with it?

It's an interesting culture to me.

I once watched an episode of the Twilight Zone. Old black and white episode. This girl was in a hospital bed, her face covered up most of the episode. The doctors and nurses faces were covered up with masks. They kept talking about corrective surgery to fix her. By the end of the episode, it turns out all the doctors and nurses are ugly beasts, and the girl is beautiful. But she lives in a society where she's considered the ugly beast. They weren't able to fix her, so they sent her off to live in a ghetto with others like her.

See, I'm a very socially concious guy, and I enjoy looking at these kinds of issues. I think it is wrong that people feel pressured by the expectations of others. I know that it's not like that with every case. But with most cases? We've done this, as a society, this pressure on people to look perfect.

Did it ever occur to you that women have these things done because THEY find them unattractive? They are absolutely comparable to any other corrective surgery. And American's by FAR have not cornered the market on circumcision.

They may well find it unattractive. But people (and vagoos) come in all sorts of shapes and sizes. Would it not be healthy for someone to just tell a woman considering surgery "there is NOTHING abnormal about your vagoo".