Fight scenes need improvement!

[tnekkralc]

Just watched Captain America Winter Soldier for the third time, and man, those hand to hand combat scenes (especially when Cap is fighting the Winter Soldier one on one) are first class. Upcoming movies featuring Bats really need to match this. Don't get me wrong, I'm a DC/Batman guy first and foremost but the live action fight scenes have always lacked. I know Nolan was going for 'realistic' but compare Cap/Winter Soldier to TDKR Batman/Bane's final fight...LAME. Even in BB and TDK you never got the feeling that Bat's REALLY dominated physically (apart from the way he looked), also he's always been shot way too slowly. Again needs to have that quick yet powerful force.

Here's a great example of how it should be done, you get the sense that he is a real badass:

Arkham City

To be clear I LOVE the Nolan movies and even like the fight scenes, but it could still be improved upon!

Thoughts?

 

[Rorschach2012]

Yeah Arkham games should be the primary influence on the fighting stye

 

[Steamteck]

I found the Nolan fight scenes very weak and the Arkham games would certainly be a welcome influence. I think Snyder will do great on Batman's fighting style in BvS

 

[Mani-Man]

There is much wrong with Nolans Batman, the way Batman fights is one of the main things that is wrong.

The Camera work is awful, but even without it, the fighting looks strange and amateur like.
Begins and Dark Knight at least had fast camera perspectives, but Rises has the worst fight scenes in movie history...even Batman & Robin had better.

The Arkham Series really shows how Batman should fight.

 

[shauner111]

The camera work is not awful. Dark Knight didnt really have fast camera, Begins did and it served a purpose.

In movie history? Well, i think the Bane and Batman fight is still the best in comic book movie history so there you go. Zero flash to it. Nothing but impact.

Yes, i agree that the video games do it well, but they're video games. Not only that, if they can do this stuff on screen, it's best suited for a world that has more CG and over the top elements. You need to realize that Nolans universe didn't call for flashy, kung-fu, Hollywood fight scenes.

Somebody put together all the fights in one video, from the trilogy. I dug all the fighting in the series. I expect a completely different approach in the Snyderverse because it calls for it. I can enjoy both. If the Nolan movies had all that fake fancy crap, that i also love by the way (only when it's used in the right way), then it would stick out like a sore thumb.

As Batman fans, watching cartoons, playing video games, and being used to Hollywood fighting...it's easy to say "those fights were terrible! Batman fights a different way!". But that's because we watch cartoons, play the video games. It's all effects. And we're spoiled. If you want to make a Batman for the fanboys, then that's where we'll get that awesome fighting. But Nolans trilogy was not made to pander to the fanbase who read a comic book (huge minority) or to please the people who toss popcorn in their mouth while watching slick samurai flicks. Or even Watchmen, which let's be honest, was made for fanboys.

Nolan is a visionary. Burton was too. Shumacher was a studio puppet. Snyder is a fanboy and tries to make movies that the hardcore fan will love. There's the difference.

 

[ThePhantasm]

The camera work in the fight scenes is horrific and clearly designed to try to hide the faults in the choreography (it fails at that, too).

 

[BatLobster]

I don't think the camera work is trying to hide anything in the sequels. It's all there in plain view, for better or worse. And the Batman/Bane sewer fight is beautifully shot. But wow, is there a more unnecessary and redundant idea for a thread?

Oh, I got one. Let's make a new thread called, "The growl has to go!"

 

[Steamteck]

Well. I really look forward to a more cinematic fighting style. Emotionally I'll give you it could be intense but the fighting seemed inadequate for the skilled fighters they were supposed to be.

 

[Mani-Man]

The camera work is not awful. Dark Knight didnt really have fast camera, Begins did and it served a purpose.

In movie history? Well, i think the Bane and Batman fight is still the best in comic book movie history so there you go. Zero flash to it. Nothing but impact.

Yes, i agree that the video games do it well, but they're video games. Not only that, if they can do this stuff on screen, it's best suited for a world that has more CG and over the top elements. You need to realize that Nolans universe didn't call for flashy, kung-fu, Hollywood fight scenes.

Somebody put together all the fights in one video, from the trilogy. I dug all the fighting in the series. I expect a completely different approach in the Snyderverse because it calls for it. I can enjoy both. If the Nolan movies had all that fake fancy crap, that i also love by the way (only when it's used in the right way), then it would stick out like a sore thumb.

As Batman fans, watching cartoons, playing video games, and being used to Hollywood fighting...it's easy to say "those fights were terrible! Batman fights a different way!". But that's because we watch cartoons, play the video games. It's all effects. And we're spoiled. If you want to make a Batman for the fanboys, then that's where we'll get that awesome fighting. But Nolans trilogy was not made to pander to the fanbase who read a comic book (huge minority) or to please the people who toss popcorn in their mouth while watching slick samurai flicks. Or even Watchmen, which let's be honest, was made for fanboys.

Nolan is a visionary. Burton was too. Shumacher was a studio puppet. Snyder is a fanboy and tries to make movies that the hardcore fan will love. There's the difference.

No matter how its twist and turned....batman is a fantasy character.
He is a comic book character that can take on a dozen of highly trained people.
He jumps from buildings and just uses a cape to fly.
He uses fantastic gadgets to fight crime, he goes toe to toe with monsters and all kinds of things.
He is NOT real, he should be portrayed as the thing he is...a comic book character.
When nolans movies are not made for the fans...then there is something wrong.

Batman throws fancy kicks and stuff, because sometimes they are more effective then grabbing his head with both hands and driving his elbows into someone...yeah that move in begins(i think it was begins) is still the dumbest thing i ever saw.
Batman does flips and stuff, when its the most effective tactic.
He uses his momentum and all to fight multiple enemies at once, that involves flips, spin kicks, roundhouse kicks etc.

Nolans batman does not look like a man who has perfected his fighting...or even knows most fighting styles.
Batman and Banes fight shows not one thing that makes this characters so dangerous, it was like two amateurs trying to hit each other.

Nobody wants to see batman fight like those japanese kung fu movies, but having a nicely planned cinematic fight, is a good thing.

Imagine thor vs Captain america vs iron man in a nolan style fight....Kill it, burn it with fire

The camera work in the fight scenes is horrific and clearly designed to try to hide the faults in the choreography (it fails at that, too).

Yup, thats why it works a bit in Begins and Dark knight.
But the final fight in rises, shows the awful choreography and why this fighting style doesnt get used in movies.

I don't think the camera work is trying to hide anything in the sequels. It's all there in plain view, for better or worse. And the Batman/Bane sewer fight is beautifully shot. But wow, is there a more unnecessary and redundant idea for a thread?

Oh, I got one. Let's make a new thread called, "The growl has to go!"

Beautiful shot...yes, but its not about the camera, its about the choreography of the fight...and that is bad.

If you dont want to talk about thsi, why did you come to a thread with such a title?
Seems like a unnecessary and redundant idea for a post!
Oh, i got one. How about you dont look into threads you dont like.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Begins and the last two had opposite issues. Begins was so chaotically cut that you couldn't comprehend what was going on. The last two had stable compositions and editing, but the choreography was so bad that you wished you didn't see anything.

 

[shauner111]

Begins and the last two had opposite issues. Begins was so chaotically cut that you couldn't comprehend what was going on. The last two had stable compositions and editing, but the choreography was so bad that you wished you didn't see anything.

You couldn't see what was going on because that was the intention. You're seeing it from the criminals perspective.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

And I guess TDK/R was from the perspective of the Flash? Hence the slowness?

 

[shauner111]

No matter how its twist and turned....batman is a fantasy character.
He is a comic book character that can take on a dozen of highly trained people.
He jumps from buildings and just uses a cape to fly.
He uses fantastic gadgets to fight crime, he goes toe to toe with monsters and all kinds of things.
He is NOT real, he should be portrayed as the thing he is...a comic book character.
When nolans movies are not made for the fans...then there is something wrong.

Batman throws fancy kicks and stuff, because sometimes they are more effective then grabbing his head with both hands and driving his elbows into someone...yeah that move in begins(i think it was begins) is still the dumbest thing i ever saw.
Batman does flips and stuff, when its the most effective tactic.
He uses his momentum and all to fight multiple enemies at once, that involves flips, spin kicks, roundhouse kicks etc.

Nolans batman does not look like a man who has perfected his fighting...or even knows most fighting styles.
Batman and Banes fight shows not one thing that makes this characters so dangerous, it was like two amateurs trying to hit each other.

Nobody wants to see batman fight like those japanese kung fu movies, but having a nicely planned cinematic fight, is a good thing.

Imagine thor vs Captain america vs iron man in a nolan style fight....Kill it, burn it with fire

You dont understand that Nolan is aware that Batman is a comic book character and that he doesn't have to treat him as such if he doesn't want to. The whole premise behind the trilogy is to treat Batman like he was a real person in any other film, from any other genre.

This quote from you right here "He is NOT real, he should be portrayed as the thing he is...a comic book character". What a narrow mind you have. Yes, at some point he should definitely be done that way. But to strangle ones creativity and tell them they can't interpret him a certain way, like a real character, like a comic book character, like a horror character, like a comedic character is really irritating. I hate that crap. "Should" is the worst word in the dictionary.

The elbows, yeah, i guess you didnt watch the making of these movies. It's based on a real Keysi fighting method where they use unorthodox moves. You may not have to like it, but there was thought put into it. Bane and Batman don't look dangerous? Ok, i felt more impact and threat from their first fight in Rises than any other comic book movie.

I thought they were cinematic, you didnt. It's a matter of taste.

Yes Batman does flips and stuff but not if he's wearing that suit or is a middle-aged man.

"Imagine thor vs Captain america vs iron man in a nolan style fight....Kill it, burn it with fire" - Thank God Nolan knows better not to deal with dumb characters like them.

 

[shauner111]

And I guess TDK/R was from the perspective of the Flash? Hence the slowness?

That was funny i admit, but the guy is 40 years old and still in pretty bad shape. Do you judge TDKReturns when he's out of breath and can barely move around?

 

[Tacit Ronin]

Well, TDKReturns is a comic. So he moved as fast as I imagined he did. But the slow choreography is also a problem with TDK when he is in his prime. Not to mention that Bane also moved slowly. So it's clearly not because Batman was out of his prime that the fights were at a snail's pace.

 

[BatLobster]

If you dont want to talk about thsi, why did you come to a thread with such a title?
Seems like a unnecessary and redundant idea for a post!
Oh, i got one. How about you dont look into threads you dont like.

I was responding to the statement that the choreography AND camera work were simultaneous problems. Like Tacit Ronin pointed out, it was usually one or the other, particularly in the sequels.

And my point was, it is just generally accepted that there's going to be more of an emphasis on more polished fight scenes with Batfleck, it gets brought up on a near daily basis on the BvS boards. Hence, it's already an old discussion.

That said, let me backpedal for a second here, it's not the worst idea for a thread seeing as this is the solo Batman section...but seeing as this movie is around 5 years away, all eyes are pointed towards BvS to see how the next iteration of Batman will fight.

 

[Mani-Man]

You dont understand that Nolan is aware that Batman is a comic book character and that he doesn't have to treat him as such if he doesn't want to. The whole premise behind the trilogy is to treat Batman like he was a real person in any other film, from any other genre.

I perfectly understand that he was aware of that...i watched the making ofs and special features of begins plenty of times.
I understand that....but i dont have to like it one bit.

This quote from you right here "He is NOT real, he should be portrayed as the thing he is...a comic book character". What a narrow mind you have. Yes, at some point he should definitely be done that way. But to strangle ones creativity and tell them they can't interpret him a certain way, like a real character, like a comic book character, like a horror character, like a comedic character is really irritating. I hate that crap. "Should" is the worst word in the dictionary.

I have a narrow mind because i want my favorite comic book character to get faithfuly adapted?
Its one thing to interpret a character in your own way....but Nolan just took the most basic knowledge of the batman world.
Making bane just some guy with a mask, scarecrow into someone who just worked on chemicals that cause hallucination etc without getting into the core of those characters...is not faithful.

I getting really tired of constantly having to explain myself why i dont like nolans batman movies.
Im getting tired of seeing new fans coming into batman forums and telling me that the comcis suck because they only know nolans movies and think that this is how batman "should" be.

I dont care if i have in your opinion a narrow mind, i dont like what nolan did with the movies...and i will say that.

The elbows, yeah, i guess you didnt watch the making of these movies. It's based on a real Keysi fighting method where they use unorthodox moves. You may not have to like it, but there was thought put into it. Bane and Batman don't look dangerous? Ok, i felt more impact and threat from their first fight in Rises than any other comic book movie.

I thought they were cinematic, you didnt. It's a matter of taste.

Yes Batman does flips and stuff but not if he's wearing that suit or is a middle-aged man.

"Imagine thor vs Captain america vs iron man in a nolan style fight....Kill it, burn it with fire" - Thank God Nolan knows better not to deal with dumb characters like them.

Like i said, i watched the behind the scenes plenty of time, so i know the keysi fighting method and why they choose it.
But it doesnt change the fact that it looks goofy on a man that wears a batsuit.
If you like it and think it looks awesome, good for you.
The whole Realistic thing comes into place with those fight scenes, i understand that...but to me they just look silly.
It might work for other movies and characters, but to me it didnt work on batman.


What do you mean batman doesnt do flips and stuff when he wears the suit or has a certain age?
Bruce wayne trains every day for hours, he is always at the top of human strength and agility.
Batman does Flips and Kicks, he is a master of a dozen of fighting styles.
Nolans Batman doesnt use them, but every other incarnation does.
He uses flips, rolls and stuff to evade attacks and stuff...what is you batman knowledge?

Calling other characters dumb is narrow minded.

I never expect any actor to ever move like the Batman from Arkham City, but the punches, elbows, counters etc. could be used.

 

[Steamteck]

"
"Imagine thor vs Captain america vs iron man in a nolan style fight....Kill it, burn it with fire" - Thank God Nolan knows better not to deal with dumb characters like them.

Well, I guess that explains why we rarely agree.

I found the fight scenes not horrible and if imagined them not to be batman but "special forces hero guy" not bad but acceptable at least. The keysi only works so well for me and much better on others than Batman I kind of liked the first "begins' one for the criminal's perspective.

The first Bane fight is the only one I feel is truly painful. It looked like a fight between two bricks rather than marital artists

The Captain America winter soldier stuff is closer to what I want to see myself. Obviously very different things about the batman character attract us.

Batman is always one of my top favorite characters although Cap, Thor and iron man ( the dumb characters ) are also there. Depending on my mood he can edge the other ( and wonder woman ) out but Superman is always a little ahead of him in my book. Anyway obviously not a Batman hater but he's not the be all of my superhero experience.

 

[Wildcard]

I agree completely & that was a recurring thought as I watched TWS. Just seeing everything Captain America did....well, everything he did in that one movie is more impressive than anything I've EVER seen Batman do on the big screen.

Batman is arguably the greatest fighter on Earth in the DCU so that needs to be reflected on screen. He needs that "wow" factor.

 

[DlAMONDZ]

And I guess TDK/R was from the perspective of the Flash? Hence the slowness?

 

[Iceman]

Lot of room for improvement on the fight scenes. Hopefully we see the evidence in BvS. I can see BatFleck being a particularly brutal Batman.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Nolan's fight scenes had no real speed or tension. They were just "there." It didn't help matters that Zimmer's droning soundtrack rarely gave them forward momentum, and that Batman's various adversaries just flailed around or fell down instead of doing logical things like, I don't know, shooting their guns. It is bad enough when films dumb down the enemy so the hero will look good. Here they did it simply to accommodate Batman's slowness.

Not that fight scenes are the most important things in the film (I still enjoy both the Nolan and Burton films though the fighting in both is crap), but it is definitely something that needs improvement.

 

[Iceman]

It's not the most important thing but a potential source of much awesomeness.