Fox vs. Sony - who is worse?

[HAMMER]

Neither was Ironman as popular as Spidey or Wolverine before 2008....

IM3 was a great opportunity to change that.

They did, in a way. They took a character that no one knew of anyway, and made a memorable character we're still talking about it over a year later.

I've never seen a good reason as to why a lot of fanboys 'hate' the Mandarin twist, but praise a murderous Superman or X-Men films without X-Men in them, etc. I just don't get it. But I love Iron Man 3, so what do I know...

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Bringing up Guardians of the Galaxy is interesting, because there were major changes to characters like Peter Quill and Drax and the decision to kill off a major Marvel character in Ronan after one film was far more short-sighted than how they handled the Mandarin.

And I say this as someone who thinks GotG is the best MCU film.

In the end, I thought the twist was clever and Ben Kingsley was hilarious. That's enough for me.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

Neither was Ironman as popular as Spidey or Wolverine before 2008....

IM3 was a great opportunity to change that.

Iron Man was not the very embodiment of a racial stereotype.

And besides - they've left the door open. Nothing in IM3 precludes doing something different with the character down the road if they ever choose to (although they need to tread carefully IMO). I'm very satisfied at the moment with the mere hint of a real Mandarin out there. Perhaps Killian's stunt is part of what propels him into involving himself in world events.

And they totally need to stall on that until they can do something fresh with it because yes the rings will very much be compared to the Infinity Gauntlet by non-comic fans.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

Well to be honest, I enjoyed IM3 up until Slattery entered the picture. After that I wanted to walk out of the theater and would've if it wasn't for the kids. And then it was just the attitude of Shane Black and a lot of the people who defended him that put me off even more. So as a result I'd be fine if I never see that film or another Ironman sequel again.

Now with TDW, I kinda let the negativity of others cloud my judgement on it. So I thinking about shopping around for it on Blu-ray.

Yeah well all that negativity is BS and mostly perpetuated by disgruntled Sonyman/Fox-Men/DC fans if you ask me. Now that Spider-Man is probably coming home and Fox and WB seem to be getting their act together perhaps they'll let us Marvel fans enjoy this glorious Golden Age.

 

[starscream22]

They did, in a way. They took a character that no one knew of anyway, and made a memorable character we're still talking about it over a year later.

LOL that's a nice "Glass is half full" spin to it but in this case I'd prefer dignity over infamy.

I've never seen a good reason as to why a lot of fanboys 'hate' the Mandarin twist, but praise a murderous Superman or X-Men films without X-Men in them, etc. I just don't get it. But I love Iron Man 3, so what do I know...

....This seems to be a tradition you. I don't see what Fox-men fans have to do with my issues with that particular villain.

But for the record I did enjoy MOS because it was MOS and NOT SMALLVILLE. Now far be if for me to condemn people who wish to see Clark rescue kittens from trees. But instead Snyder gave us a battle between Superman and a ARMY of highly powerful Kryptonians to which the destruction tolly made perfect sense given the situation.

Now if you think that liking MOS somehow discredits my disdain for that Mandarin twist, then have fun with that rationale. Either way, MOS was my CBM of 2013 and Winter Solder was top dog this year with GOTG as a close second.

Now lets just go back to why Fox is worse than Sony please....

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

I voted that they are both equal at the moment. Now don't get me wrong - I hate Fox. And prior to this year, I was cautiously optimistic about ASM 2. But now after that film and combined with the Sony hack revealing their utter incompetency when it comes to handling arguably Marvel's greatest creation have turned me completely anti-Sony.

Whereas what Fox is doing to the FF and the familiar disappointment after being persuaded by the Fox cheerleaders to watch the vastly overrated DOFP keep them firmly in the doghouse as well.

They both suck.

 

[Lorus]

Which to me is proof that Marvel cares more about Fan's opinion than "Pro-Twist" fans would care to admit. They know that they dropped the ball with that crap.

And the "Fu Manchu" nod that people keep referring back to is irrelevant. The only Mandarin I knew of was the one in the 90's cartoon which was kinda campy but did get better it's second season. Maybe Marvel thought his rings were too much like the Infinity Gauntlet. If that is the case then why tease them in first place? Either way an "UP TO DATE VERSION" of the villain would not have hurt that movie one bit.

So I chalk that twist up as a "Fox Move" equivalent to Domashev, Barakapool or Galactus Cloud just to name a few. Difference is that it's just one.

Have you considered that it's your ignorance at fault and not Shane Black/Marvel? This thread has mentioned numerous times that Killian as presented in the film is a pretty accurate representation of the Mandarin as he currently appears in the comics. You appear to be annoyed that Marvel didn't cater to your specific knowledge/expectations of the Mandarin, which isn't particularly fair. Especially when you consider that the other characters you rail against: 'Domashev', 'Barakapool' and 'Galactus Cloud' have no such comics precedent.

 

[Zant]

I voted that they are both equal at the moment. Now don't get me wrong - I hate Fox. And prior to this year, I was cautiously optimistic about ASM 2. But now after that film and combined with the Sony hack revealing their utter incompetency when it comes to handling arguably Marvel's greatest creation have turned me completely anti-Sony.

Whereas what Fox is doing to the FF and the familiar disappointment after being persuaded by the Fox cheerleaders to watch the vastly overrated DOFP keep them firmly in the doghouse as well.

They both suck.

So DOFP is overrated now Iol but Guardians is Perfect right? Bias much. I blame Singer for making critically acclaimed comic book films. You may as well start calling Apocalypes overrated because that's likely to be awesome too

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

So DOFP is overrated now Iol but Guardians is Perfect right? Bias much. I blame Singer for making critically acclaimed comic book films. You may as well start calling Apocalypes overrated because that's likely to be awesome too

Yes. Yes it is very overrated.

GOTG was something new. DOFP was the same old same old. It’s not bias. It’s my opinion.

I’ve posted these thoughts elsewhere but here’s why I feel this way:

Mashing together two (three/four/five???) continuities didn't really work for me and the time travel gimmick erases the stakes. That’s a big problem. Whatever conflict they encounter in the future what's to stop them from simply sending Wolverine back in time again to fix it? I don't care how gruesomely you kill the X-Men none of it even matters.

And the writing was jarring. Hearing future Charles reminisce about Raven for the first time after all their previous encounters in the first 3 X-films was really incongruous and weird to me. Killing off Emma Frost and Azazel etc. off screen was totally random and sloppy writing. Not to mention the ******ed bizarre walking/telepathy cure connection i.e. plot device - I'm sorry but Kinberg is not a good writer.

Honestly, I'm a little tired of Fox's formulaic take on the mutants. What was new and fresh about this film? It featured Magneto’s obligatory evil turn and your typical throwaway X-Men characters. I watched it with someone who is not a comic book fan and their comments were "well there's Magneto just being Magneto again" and they recognized all those other mutants as what they are: "nothing more than eye candy".

While I applaud the film's effort to make Charles and Raven central to the story instead of Wolverine for once, it is totally laughable to me that Colossus has now been in three X-Men movies and we know absolutely nothing about him. I also feel Nicholas Hoult is bad casting for Beast (Kelsey Grammer was perfect) and they made him into a Bruce Banner ripoff. Quicksilver might as well have been a completely made up character since he bore no resemblance to the character from the comics other than his silver hair and the fact that he runs fast. Sunspot's power set was indistinguishable from the Human Torch. Kitty Pryde can suddenly send people back in time?? Jackman is great at the role no doubt but Wolverine is a little too sentimental for my tastes. Fox just basically does whatever the hell they feel like with these characters.

I don’t hate Singer. X2 is one of my favorite CBMs.

But I wasn’t won over with DOFP. It was really not that great. It was an admirable attempt at cleaning up the shambles that is the Fox-men continuity but as films X2 and First Class are much better with X2 being the best X-Men film so far IMO. To me DOFP was nothing more than glorified continuity doctoring.

As a result it sort of undid what was good about First Class IMO by saddling it down with baggage from previous films. Even First Class, as good of a film as it was, should have been a straight reboot but they blew that opportunity as well because Laura Shuler Donner wanted to dip into the grab bag of mutants to see what cool new powers they could show. We're headed towards our eighth X-Men film in 16 years and the freaking field leader of the X-Men is reduced to a whiny jealous boyfriend cameo.

But it doesn't really matter what I think. Again this is all just my own personal opinion. I doubt the X-Men are ever leaving Fox's grasp and they've seemed to have garnered enough support with their latest string of films that they can continue on the track they've started. Maybe Apocalypse will be great. But I won’t be buying a ticket. If it gets great reviews I’m sure I’ll catch it at some point but everyone raved about DOFP and convinced me to finally watch it and I was really disappointed.

 

[starscream22]

I voted that they are both equal at the moment. Now don't get me wrong - I hate Fox. And prior to this year, I was cautiously optimistic about ASM 2. But now after that film and combined with the Sony hack revealing their utter incompetency when it comes to handling arguably Marvel's greatest creation have turned me completely anti-Sony.

Whereas what Fox is doing to the FF and the familiar disappointment after being persuaded by the Fox cheerleaders to watch the vastly overrated DOFP keep them firmly in the doghouse as well.

They both suck.

Yeah, I won't be supporting either of their Marvel films in the future I simply voted Fox because I have more stock in those franchises.

For me Fox has waaay too many Marvel characters at their disposal that'll never see the light of day or be done the justice that they deserve.

Sony at this point is just fumbling Spider-man.

 

[Spiderine]

Iron Man was not the very embodiment of a racial stereotype.

And besides - they've left the door open. Nothing in IM3 precludes doing something different with the character down the road if they ever choose to (although they need to tread carefully IMO). I'm very satisfied at the moment with the mere hint of a real Mandarin out there. Perhaps Killian's stunt is part of what propels him into involving himself in world events.

And they totally need to stall on that until they can do something fresh with it because yes the rings will very much be compared to the Infinity Gauntlet by non-comic fans.

You know what....that's a very good point and I never really thought about it that way. There would definitely be comparisons to a villain with artifacts that gives him different distinct powers when they finally show Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet. Probably better that they didn't give us the real Mandarin as we knew him yet.

Im actually thinking after the events of Avengers IW that somehow the real Mandarin will find a way to harness some of the power from the Infinity stones and form them into his rings and that would become the next major IM villain as his Ten Rings organization grows into a major world threat and supersedes Hydra. Just a thought.....

 

[Spiderine]

LOL that's a nice "Glass is half full" spin to it but in this case I'd prefer dignity over infamy.

....This seems to be a tradition you. I don't see what Fox-men fans have to do with my issues with that particular villain.

But for the record I did enjoy MOS because it was MOS and NOT SMALLVILLE. Now far be if for me to condemn people who wish to see Clark rescue kittens from trees. But instead Snyder gave us a battle between Superman and a ARMY of highly powerful Kryptonians to which the destruction tolly made perfect sense given the situation.

Now if you think that liking MOS somehow discredits my disdain for that Mandarin twist, then have fun with that rationale. Either way, MOS was my CBM of 2013 and Winter Solder was top dog this year with GOTG as a close second.

Now lets just go back to why Fox is worse than Sony please....

Yeah I happen to have enjoyed MOS as well and it was definitely an upgrade over Singer's Boringman Returns. Guess you can't please everyone. Maybe they wanted Superman to stop fighting in the city and trick General Zod and his cronies into flying to the fortress of solitude and finish the fight. Kiss everyone and make them forget all about it. A repeat of the Donner film.

 

[HAMMER]

LOL that's a nice "Glass is half full" spin to it but in this case I'd prefer dignity over infamy.

....This seems to be a tradition you. I don't see what Fox-men fans have to do with my issues with that particular villain.

But for the record I did enjoy MOS because it was MOS and NOT SMALLVILLE. Now far be if for me to condemn people who wish to see Clark rescue kittens from trees. But instead Snyder gave us a battle between Superman and a ARMY of highly powerful Kryptonians to which the destruction tolly made perfect sense given the situation.

Now if you think that liking MOS somehow discredits my disdain for that Mandarin twist, then have fun with that rationale. Either way, MOS was my CBM of 2013 and Winter Solder was top dog this year with GOTG as a close second.

Now lets just go back to why Fox is worse than Sony please....

The point I was making is that the hatred over the Mandarin twist is unwarranted. Why do people hate it? Because it makes the character in the green dress a joke and the actual villain was in a suit? You said yourself the only version you knew of was the one from the cartoon, so why do you hate the twist? Because the character wasn't the exact same as the one from the cartoon you remember?

If the supposed hatred comes from the argument that its different from the source material (its not, and has been mentioned in this thread a number of times) then why is there not more of an uproar over other movies that have perceived changes from the source, i.e. X-Men, MoS (movies that get extremely high praise to the point of fanaticism in these parts)?

 

[NealKenneth]

The point I was making is that the hatred over the Mandarin twist is unwarranted. Why do people hate it?....why is there not more of an uproar over other movies that have perceived changes from the source, i.e. X-Men, MoS (movies that get extremely high praise to the point of fanaticism in these parts)?

As someone who has only read a few issues of Iron Man and who hasn't read any comics or seen any shows featuring The Mandarin, let me explain to you why I hate "The Mandarin Twist" (which should definitely be the name of a dance move or drink.)

The Mandarin is set up with these disturbing films, dark glasses and smoky rooms. He's got a deep drawl and great lines. The scene with a phone call and a gun is terrifying. He's going to destroy Iron Man because he represents everything he's against. He doesn't even need superpowers to be scary!

What about Killian? He's uses Extremis, the limits of which are never really defined, so it's hard to feel tension in the scenes where he uses it. And he has some sort of grudge relating to Tony and a snub at a New Year's party?

They try to do some sort of handoff where Killian is revealed to be the puppetmaster or whatever, but it just doesn't work. They never convinced me that Killian had the capability or desire to pull off whatever his scheme was. The scene itself, where The Mandarin is revealed to be an actor, is truly unexpected, but it's one of those things where someone in production should have said "It's not worth it." From the moment we find out The Mandarin is just an actor, the film deflates like a leaky balloon.

They sacrificed an interesting villain for a cheap laugh.

 

[BoredGuy]

I'm surprised by this result
Sony is clueless and aimless, especially right now, with the Spidey-verse, disappointing many fans
but Fox repeatedly tells us to go f*** ourselves with the films they put out
no respect for the source material, no clue how to tell fresh and original stories, no care for the long-term damage they do to their own properties, hell, even their posters and other promotions suck. The best fox CBM's were the ones with the lowest expectations (X1 and 2 cuz CBM's were still young, and FC and the Wolverine after that Origins abomination)

 

[Nemeres]

I think the current X-Men situation proves how cyclical these things can be. After Last Stand and Origins everyone wanted Fox to burn, but it only took one cool film - not three, not two, but ONE - to get most people to lower their pitchforks. Then DOFP hits and say no more: 90% jumps back on board the Fox X-Men train.

Right now, it's easy to pinpoint which studio has the freshest stink. It's Sony. Just like it was WB in 1997 right after B&R, or Fox back in 2006, while Sony was on top of the world. I think studios are revolving doors, with smart/dumb execs coming in and out constantly, and they can become entirely different places from within in just a matter of years. A rough season is not a death sentence.

 

[SuperT]

I think the current X-Men situation proves how cyclical these things can be.

Couldn't agree more with this assessment, everything in this industry is cyclical. These studios are going to go on highs and lows, yes even Marvel will at some point or another. It's all about how you bounce back.

 

[MbJ]

I always thought the hate at the 'twist' was ironic in that the Mandarin was never an A list villain and outside of the cartoon show didn't really exist in other media besides the comic. Then all of a sudden all these 'Iron Man fans' were outraged at the way the character was presented, i.e. Killian. Yet some of those same fans are looking forward to Domashev.

I'm probably in the minority but I actually enjoyed Slattery for the same reason I'm looking forward to Domshev. If the film itself is well done then I don't particularly care if it's not exactly the same as the comics. Barakapool was terrible but was just the cherry on top of what was already a **** sundae.

I can accept liberties and changes so long as they make for a good story. GOTG took some pretty big liberties but I still loved it.

Another major difference is that Mandarin is nowhere near as iconic or popular as Doom, Deadpool, and Galactus.

Also, there's the other elephant in the room: Doom and those other guys aren't considered racist stereotypes. The Mandarin is a relic of a less enlightened time period but people still insist he HAS to be in the movies because he was in the comics too.

I mean Captain Marvel used to hang around with an awful blackface sambo caricature sidekick but nobody complains that they didn't bring him back for any of the modern revivals.

 

[JEM]

I think the current X-Men situation proves how cyclical these things can be. After Last Stand and Origins everyone wanted Fox to burn, but it only took one cool film - not three, not two, but ONE - to get most people to lower their pitchforks. Then DOFP hits and say no more: 90% jumps back on board the Fox X-Men train.

Right now, it's easy to pinpoint which studio has the freshest stink. It's Sony. Just like it was WB in 1997 right after B&R, or Fox back in 2006, while Sony was on top of the world. I think studios are revolving doors, with smart/dumb execs coming in and out constantly, and they can become entirely different places from within in just a matter of years. A rough season is not a death sentence.

BRAVO
Sony is terrible right now but they give me Spider Man 2, the best superhero movie for me. Beside, i liked ASM and Spider Man.
If they change, i will support them again.

 

[starscream22]

I think the current X-Men situation proves how cyclical these things can be. After Last Stand and Origins everyone wanted Fox to burn, but it only took one cool film - not three, not two, but ONE - to get most people to lower their pitchforks. Then DOFP hits and say no more: 90% jumps back on board the Fox X-Men train.

Right now, it's easy to pinpoint which studio has the freshest stink. It's Sony. Just like it was WB in 1997 right after B&R, or Fox back in 2006, while Sony was on top of the world. I think studios are revolving doors, with smart/dumb execs coming in and out constantly, and they can become entirely different places from within in just a matter of years. A rough season is not a death sentence.

Sony has released 3 Meh Spidey films in a row 5 Meh Marvel films if you count those Ghost Rider films from Lions Gate. And with Sinister Six sounding anything but promising, how long is a "bad season" to you guys?

Marvel Studios has made 10 successful films. TEN! Never mind my feelings about IM3, it's still their 2nd biggest film to date. Plus I didn't hate the other 9. So forgive me if I'm not too keen on weathering Fox and Sony's countless "bad moments". I'd rather support a studio that usually makes and effort takes its Marvel fans seriously and gets it right the first time.

REVERT BACK TO MARVEL!

 

[Decepticonus]

Looking back I do not care much for the Raimi films. The villains were more memorable but the Spider-Man was annoying, always had too much face time, the relationship was annoying, the FX and everything is dated. The movies feel like they live decades ago. BUT I am probably the only I LOVE the new Amazing Spider-Man, both films 1 & 2. The wife even say 2 with me and she loved it too. We love Garfield, we loved the FX, the characters everything. I for one totally support Sony.
You want to make an Amazing Spider-Man 3? YES, PLEASE!
Sinister Six? Yes, sure that has never been attempted.
Venom & Carnage? Yes, the first is very important to comic fans and I love the latter?
Black Cat or some Spider-Woman? Sure, we want some female comic book hero movies

Sony is aware of the trends and what the market wants. No one has attempted a movie about villains and more than ever are they becoming more popular. Heck, you could argue more people went to see TDK for The Joker and identified more with The Joker. So yes I want Sinister Six, yes I want Venom and yes I want Carnage.
I'd prefer Black Cat or hell Spider-Gwen but either yes, a female hero is great. Though I think this idea still needs to stew for a while for I feel they are rushing into this one.

Plus Sony to me has a good respect for the source material, with some minor twists. The Parkers not being spies but killed due to corporate espionage works, since the Cold War is long over. Harry killing Gwen? Well technically it was the Green Goblin who killed Gwen and how will they play out in 3? Your best friend just killed your woman? It borrows elements from the Ultimate comics and overall updates alot. You could argue Salley Fields Aunt May is not true to the source material because Aunt May is very useless, annoying, old and just typical "evil Spider-Man, don't forget your coat Peter" where this one is not preachy and annoying.




FOX on the other hand can burn in hell. I grew up on X-Men as my bread and butter and these films ****ing sucked. They suck as X-men, they suck as comic book films and just suck generally as films. Such a shame cause I love most of the casting, save for the so called "talented actress" people think is Storm. Each film has let me down, Wolverine was OK (not Origins) but only OK. Bryan Singer shows little to NO respect to the source material. They seem to forget their are other villains in this universe besides Magento. Maybe Mr. Sinister? Stryfe? Friends of Humanity? MLF? The Brood? Maybe do an actual Phoenix Saga and kind of give GOTG a run for its money. And this is the problem you could build a great and terrific X-Men universe like MARVEL has. You have X-Men First Class, which leads down the road to Claremont X-Men, the New Mutants, X-Force, X-Factor, Excalibur, Wolverine solo films, Deadpool solo films, Cable solo films. Generation X, hell Nightcrawler was popular enough after X2 for his own film perhaps.

 

[starscream22]

FOX on the other hand can burn in hell.

Agreed.

 

[MbJ]

Plus Sony to me has a good respect for the source material, with some minor twists. The Parkers not being spies but killed due to corporate espionage works, since the Cold War is long over. Harry killing Gwen? Well technically it was the Green Goblin who killed Gwen and how will they play out in 3? Your best friend just killed your woman? It borrows elements from the Ultimate comics and overall updates alot. You could argue Salley Fields Aunt May is not true to the source material because Aunt May is very useless, annoying, old and just typical "evil Spider-Man, don't forget your coat Peter" where this one is not preachy and annoying.

Arguments like this are why I generally have the view that faithfulness to the source material is not the indicator of quality some people seem to believe. Amazing Spider-Man 2 was a terrible movie regardless of respecting the source material and at the end of the day for most people a ****** movie is still a ****** movie. Saying "they honored the source material and paid homage to the comics" doesn't magically make the movies not suck.

Comic fans are easy to please and that's part of the problem. They'll eat up the same crap over and over just so long as you don't ruffle any feathers.

 

[Decepticonus]

Arguments like this are why I generally have the view that faithfulness to the source material is not the indicator of quality some people seem to believe. Amazing Spider-Man 2 was a terrible movie regardless of respecting the source material and at the end of the day for most people a ****** movie is still a ****** movie. Saying "they honored the source material and paid homage to the comics" doesn't magically make the movies not suck.

Comic fans are easy to please and that's part of the problem. They'll eat up the same crap over and over just so long as you don't ruffle any feathers.

True but I indicated they were faithful to the source material with some tweaks. And that's fine. At times the source material has to be tweaked like Punisher for example. I don't think a Vietnman back drop would work anymore UNLESS you wanted the film based in that time.
And you make a good point. You could argue Batman & Robin was faithful to the Adam West material and still sucked.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Raimi's films had a few changes, but were far more faithful.

The ASM films were filled with stupid stuff like Peter's parents being more significant than Uncle Ben and Aunt May, Norman dying before ever becoming the Green Goblin, Connors having no family, Harry killing Gwen, and Peter being a unlikable hipster type.