BvS Gal Gadot IS Wonder Woman! - Part 3

[Black Narcissus]

Never did I say she was defined by her sexiness, nor did I say I want to see a mostly naked woman. Rather, I said one of her defining aspects was her beauty and her body is a part of that. I feel that hiding her legs completely is an unnecessary prevent ploy to prevent people such as yourself from whining about how all men are pigs who love naked women.

WW is literally a symbolic representation of female empowerment. Her body and overall appearance is something that separates her from the plethora of make superheroes who dominate comic books. If the actress playing her is comfortable and willing to wear an outfit that WW has been depicted as wearing for decades, I don't see a problem with it, nor do I think the filmmakers will be sexist for depicting WW as such.

 

[regwec]

Seriously look up "alien meaning" in Google right now. I'll wait here for you...

Even better, look it up in the OED.

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/alien

Many words bear a number of meanings, which shift with the context in which they appear. By framing the term in the context of "sci fi tech", you invited the interpretation of "alien" as in little green men.

I imagine you know this perfectly well.

 

[jaymes_e06]

Even better, look it up in the OED.

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/alien

Many words bear a number of meanings, which shift with the context in which they appear. By framing the term in the context of "sci fi tech", you invited the interpretation of "alien" as in little green men.

I imagine you know this perfectly well.

I actually said if you look back and actually read my messages rather than just reading what you want to hear said "alien tech-y" when put into that context, since you brought context up, the "y" part implies "the like" so I'm not meaning it literally. I thought that was apparent which is why I've been making fun of you this entire time with my messages about aliens.

I thought you were joking at first but know I now you were being serious which is kind of.

 

[regwec]

You implied something you didn't intend, never mind. There is no need to throw a tantrum over it.

 

[jaymes_e06]

I genuinely thought you were being facetious. I wasn't throwing a tantrum just confused.

 

[Astrodust]

Had some time to kill at work in-between projects, so I also did a manip

Still loving this manip. Cool belt too.

 

[The Guard]

By definition, there must be a discriminatory element for something to be actually racist or sexist

"sexist" has a defined meaning:

1. pertaining to, involving, or fostering sexism: sexist advertising.
n.
2. a person with sexist attitudes or behavior.

So either it's being suggested here that Diana's visuals is fostering sexism or that she, herself, is sexist as a person.

"sexism" also has a defined meaning:

1. Discrimination based on gender, especially discrimination against women.

Can someone explain to me how women, as a group, are being discriminated by Wonder Woman wearing her traditional costume?

2. Attitudes, conditions, or behaviors that promote stereotyping of social roles based on gender.

Can someone explain to me which stereotypes about women Wonder Woman promotes by wearing her traditional costume?

I go out in public and see women wearing all kinds of sleeveless, strapless dresses, blouses and the like. Some are wearing outfits that reveal their cleavage or legs, tasteful and otherwise. Some of them wear push up bras, or simply have large breasts that can be seen in various styles. Is all that specific clothing and the existence of large breasts also sexist?

I'm supposed to believe that Wonder Woman is somehow bad for women's image and fostering some sort of unrealistic expectations, etc, because she's wearing a colorful, slightly exaggerated version of the styles that many women are already occassionally wearing?

In terms of her waist down, she's basically wearing a swimsuit. Are swimsuits and shorts and panties and boots also sexist now?

I won't apologize because Wonder Woman celebrates the female form. It's one of the things I like about the character, the visual of a beautiful woman, and yes, the sex appeal of her form is part of that.

"Artists draw her bending over and sticking her butt and chest out" is not an appropriate argument against the costume in the context of this movie or any other movie.

Wonder Woman is generally portrayed as an attractive, sexy woman. Part of cultural ideas about that includes bared shoulders, back, etc. This is mirrored in many societies in general, at formal events and weddings and the like, and even in everyday life. Again, something to do with human tradition. Does that inherently make her sexist?

I don't see any point in jettisoning the traditional visual interpretation of the character just because some people have an incredibly shallow understanding of what sexist is and lack context.

Superheroes have visually always been about the "ideal" and "tradition". Batman and Superman and all the rest have RIDICULOUS musculature compared to the average man, but its understood that this is the visual tradition of the medium, that they are, in a sense, mythological Gods among men. By the same token, Wonder Woman looks the way she does largely because of that tradition. We can argue whether that's a good reason to keep the interpretation in film, but you can make that argument about ANY aspect of a superhero's mythology.

The more I think about it, the more I want the classic briefs/battle skirt look. If only because it sets her apart from most other female heroes, many of whom wear the skintight leather and such.

 

[MrsKent26]

Guard...I said I wasn't going to get into this again because I think people have heard enough, but at least you're polite.

It is discrimination because she is portrayed as a sex object while her male counterparts are not. Yes, they are drawn muscular. But that is not about sex appeal. It's a male power fantasy. Look at who was complaining about Cavill not being big enough before MOS came out. The majority were men. Women thought he was sexy in the Tudors when he was much smaller. And yes, WW looks the way she does out of tradition as well and that tradition is the objectifying of women.

And all that stuff about dictionary definitions is semantics.

I didn't say WW was sexist. He visuals are fostering sexism though, for the reason above. She promotes the stereotype that women must wear skimpy sexy outfits and must appeal to men. They can't simply exist, they must also look good under the male gaze.

And no, women dressing how they want is not sexist and neither is being sexy. It's because they are real women who are in control of how they appear to the world. WW is not that. She is drawn by men who want to control how a female should appear in order to not only be whatever the character is, but appeal to men. But dressing sexy is not a requirement for real women. It seems to be a requirement for this character because men have said it is.

And yes, she is wearing a swimsuit. All. The. Time. Do real women do that? Do they fight in that?

And there is it. Again. I thought I should respond to you since you were being civil.

 

[roach]

 

[jaymes_e06]

 

[MrsKent26]

Get back here, roach. You know you wanna take part in this fun! I won't get my way anyway. I'm expecting a skimpy outfit and many gratuitous shots. This is all just my opinion on what I want to see, but I'm not hopeful that I'll get it.

 

[roach]

Get back here, roach. You know you wanna take part in this fun!

Oh hell nah… I am not in the offended group so I can't comment on the possible offensiveness of the wonder suit.

The only thing I can do is wonder how someone could bring her to life on screen. I think the baggage that we bring with us and apply to characters is the reason why all of the well received solo superhero films have been white males.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

Guard...I said I wasn't going to get into this again because I think people have heard enough, but at least you're polite.

It is discrimination because she is portrayed as a sex object while her male counterparts are not. Yes, they are drawn muscular. But that is not about sex appeal. It's a male power fantasy. Look at who was complaining about Cavill not being big enough before MOS came out. The majority were men. Women thought he was sexy in the Tudors when he was much smaller. And yes, WW looks the way she does out of tradition as well and that tradition is the objectifying of women.

And all that stuff about dictionary definitions is semantics.

I didn't say WW was sexist. Her visuals are fostering sexism though, for the reason above. (To an extent) She promotes the stereotype that women must wear skimpy sexy outfits and must appeal to men. They can't simply exist, they must also look good under the male gaze. (By that concept, male's should be unattractive and not have shirtless scenes. I don't think any person is going to draw a homely Wonder Woman, though Alex Ross' gets pretty close to doing that. Which I think is neat in its own right )

And no, women dressing how they want is not sexist and neither is being sexy. It's because they are real women who are in control of how they appear to the world. WW is not that. She is drawn by men who want to control how a female should appear in order to not only be whatever the character is, but appeal to men. (Core demographic: Nearly 9 out of ten comic readers are male. Same reason that there are a lot of unrealistic depictions of males in romance novels.) Is it unfair? Yes, but until there is a balance of the audience, there will continue to be stereotypes and gender-biased imagery among video games, books, movies, etc.
But dressing sexy is not a requirement for real women. It seems to be a requirement for this character because men have said it is.

And yes, she is wearing a swimsuit. All. The. Time. Do real women do that? Do they fight in that? (Can real women fly? Do they have a lasso of truth?)

And there is it. Again. I thought I should respond to you since you were being civil.

I can actually sympathize with your resentment. I think the classic costume has been an excuse for artist to show her in sexy poses, and I think it's initially too cheesecake to be taken seriously on film.

But I also don't want the Greek costume influences to be ignored, either.

Something like THIS image to the right respects her heritage, yet also looks functional.

 

[The Shape]

By definition, there must be a discriminatory element for something to be actually racist or sexist

"sexist" has a defined meaning:

1. pertaining to, involving, or fostering sexism: sexist advertising.
n.
2. a person with sexist attitudes or behavior.

So either it's being suggested here that Diana's visuals is fostering sexism or that she, herself, is sexist as a person.

"sexism" also has a defined meaning:

1. Discrimination based on gender, especially discrimination against women.

Can someone explain to me how women, as a group, are being discriminated by Wonder Woman wearing her traditional costume?

2. Attitudes, conditions, or behaviors that promote stereotyping of social roles based on gender.

Can someone explain to me which stereotypes about women Wonder Woman promotes by wearing her traditional costume?

I go out in public and see women wearing all kinds of sleeveless, strapless dresses, blouses and the like. Some are wearing outfits that reveal their cleavage or legs, tasteful and otherwise. Some of them wear push up bras, or simply have large breasts that can be seen in various styles. Is all that specific clothing and the existence of large breasts also sexist?

I'm supposed to believe that Wonder Woman is somehow bad for women's image and fostering some sort of unrealistic expectations, etc, because she's wearing a colorful, slightly exaggerated version of the styles that many women are already occassionally wearing?

In terms of her waist down, she's basically wearing a swimsuit. Are swimsuits and shorts and panties and boots also sexist now?

I won't apologize because Wonder Woman celebrates the female form. It's one of the things I like about the character, the visual of a beautiful woman, and yes, the sex appeal of her form is part of that.

"Artists draw her bending over and sticking her butt and chest out" is not an appropriate argument against the costume in the context of this movie or any other movie.

Wonder Woman is generally portrayed as an attractive, sexy woman. Part of cultural ideas about that includes bared shoulders, back, etc. This is mirrored in many societies in general, at formal events and weddings and the like, and even in everyday life. Again, something to do with human tradition. Does that inherently make her sexist?

I don't see any point in jettisoning the traditional visual interpretation of the character just because some people have an incredibly shallow understanding of what sexist is and lack context.

Superheroes have visually always been about the "ideal" and "tradition". Batman and Superman and all the rest have RIDICULOUS musculature compared to the average man, but its understood that this is the visual tradition of the medium, that they are, in a sense, mythological Gods among men. By the same token, Wonder Woman looks the way she does largely because of that tradition. We can argue whether that's a good reason to keep the interpretation in film, but you can make that argument about ANY aspect of a superhero's mythology.

The more I think about it, the more I want the classic briefs/battle skirt look. If only because it sets her apart from most other female heroes, many of whom wear the skintight leather and such.

Yes! Logic! Thank you.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[MrsKent26]

It could be because women of all colors are usually written by white men. That's not to say they always **** it up. I thought goyer and Snyder did pretty well with the women in mos. sure these last few posts I've made in this thread make me seem like an angry feminist and I am proud to be a feminist. But I'm not always angry and don't hate all portrayals of women. I wasn't offend by mos treatment of them for the most part. I think Snyder's wife had some input from what I hear from her interviews.

 

[The Guard]

It is discrimination because she is portrayed as a sex object while her male counterparts are not.

I don't agree that this is the case. At all.

The men are drawn handsome, muscular, in power poses, various interactions with sexual undertones, etc.

There are countless nods in the mythology to how many women want Bruce Wayne because he is rich, handsome, ripped, etc. And to how many women want Batman because he is athletic, capable, and various other things. And so on and so forth, for countless male superheroes.

The difference is that male sexuality/sex objectification is portrayed differently than women's due to societal and cultural differences.

And again, it comes down to the definition of the term.

"A person regarded primarily as the focus of sexual attraction."

Being a sex object is not Wonder Woman's primary reason for existing in the mythology. That's not even her costume's primary reason for existing, even during her original creation.

Yes, they are drawn muscular. But that is not about sex appeal. It's a male power fantasy.

Male power fantasy may be part of it, but I'd argue all day long that it's not the majority of it, or that it's the only part of it.

Look at who was complaining about Cavill not being big enough before MOS came out. The majority were men. Women thought he was sexy in the Tudors when he was much smaller. And yes, WW looks the way she does out of tradition as well and that tradition is the objectifying of women.

I think that's a generalization. I suspect many women are fine with the way he looks right now. The Cavill thread would tend to bear that out.

That tradition is not ONLY about the objectification of women. And just because the tradition began there does not mean that this is the only way it can be interpreted.

From what I see, many women in society have long since taken the "revealing outfit" and used it to empower themselves VS just feeling objectified. Why can't Wonder Woman be a reflection of that societal shift in an even more dramatic and impactful way than other action heroines/female characters have been?

And all that stuff about dictionary definitions is semantics.

Semantics being "the meaning" of something. If you're going to use a distinct, somewhat loaded term, you kind of have to address what it means and be fair about the interpretations therein.

I didn't say WW was sexist. He visuals are fostering sexism though, for the reason above. She promotes the stereotype that women must wear skimpy sexy outfits and must appeal to men. They can't simply exist, they must also look good under the male gaze.

How on Earth does the visual alone promote the "stereotype" for all women?

It'd be one thing if Wonder Woman comics actually delivered that message, and had Diana making speeches about how girls need to look pretty and show more boob and butt for their boys. As it is, this seems like a serious overreaction. One that I think is frankly a huge generalization.

There's not really, at least at this point in Wonder Woman's mythology (except perhaps on a case by case basis), an inherent gender stereotype being presented at all within the material.

Much like I didn't come out of watching sports with the belief that I must be good at sports to appeal to women, all women don't necessarily take the same messages from a piece of art or a visual, and if they do, I think they need to mature a little bit and do some self reflection. I've never in my life heard a woman say that she read a Wonder Woman comic book or saw an image of Wonder Woman and came away with the idea that she must dress like that.

Nevermind that Wonder Woman isn't designed just to appeal to men. She's designed to represent the idealized form. That particular image of the idealized form is also widely accepted as an appealing interpretation for both men and women.

And no, women dressing how they want is not sexist and neither is being sexy. It's because they are real women who are in control of how they appear to the world. WW is not that. She is drawn by men who want to control how a female should appear in order to not only be whatever the character is, but appeal to men. But dressing sexy is not a requirement for real women. It seems to be a requirement for this character because men have said it is.

This seems like splitting hairs. Wonder Woman is a character who could easily be portrayed as being in control of the way she appears to the world. I've frankly never seen otherwise.

Wonder Woman has been written and drawn by many artists. Some of them men, some of them women. She has also been drawn in various costumes over the years, not all of them quite as revealing or sexy. She also wears normal clothes a good bit of the time, at least across her history.

And yes, she is wearing a swimsuit. All. The. Time. Do real women do that? Do they fight in that?

Real women don't fly, fight supervillains, etc.

Or wear costumes.

Anyone looking at Wonder Woman to tell real women how to act all the time would have to be a little bit delusional.

Diana wears a signature look much of the time because she has a costume. It's a basic tenet of being a superhero, having a signature costume/look.

As far as real women, when I go to the gym or places of other physical activity (sports), I see plenty of women in shorts and sleeveless shirts, or tight pants. I've seen kickboxers wear short shorts and a tank top.

And like I said, Diana doesn't wear that all the time. She traditionally has a secret identity where she wears normal clothes about half the time.

And there is it. Again. I thought I should respond to you since you were being civil.

Appreciate it.

 

[MrsKent26]

Never mind.

 

[The Shape]

It is discrimination because she is portrayed as a sex object while her male counterparts are not. Yes, they are drawn muscular. But that is not about sex appeal. It's a male power fantasy. Look at who was complaining about Cavill not being big enough before MOS came out. The majority were men. Women thought he was sexy in the Tudors when he was much smaller. And yes, WW looks the way she does out of tradition as well and that tradition is the objectifying of women.

And all that stuff about dictionary definitions is semantics.

I didn't say WW was sexist. He visuals are fostering sexism though, for the reason above. She promotes the stereotype that women must wear skimpy sexy outfits and must appeal to men. They can't simply exist, they must also look good under the male gaze.

And no, women dressing how they want is not sexist and neither is being sexy. It's because they are real women who are in control of how they appear to the world. WW is not that. She is drawn by men who want to control how a female should appear in order to not only be whatever the character is, but appeal to men. But dressing sexy is not a requirement for real women. It seems to be a requirement for this character because men have said it is.

And yes, she is wearing a swimsuit. All. The. Time. Do real women do that? Do they fight in that?

Real women aren't Amazon goddesses with superpowers who fight aliens, metahumans, and Ares the God of War. Do real men fight in Batsuits?

 

[flickchick85]

I'll never understand the "but men are drawn muscular so clearly they're objectified just like the women" argument. It's pure male fantasy. The men are power fantasy, the women are sex fantasy. That's how the comic industry's always been, because these things are drawn BY men, for the adolescent male audience.

One of the great exceptions currently is Kelly Sue DeConnick's Captain Marvel. And when they took away her "bathing suit" costume in favor of a more respectable uniform that a character like her might actually wear to fight evil which was more representative of her origin, the core audience had a fit, hiding behind your usual "disrespecting the iconography" argument, since I guess "it's less pleasing to our eyes" wouldn't sound very good.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

^ Hopefully with a more balanced audience for film-goers we'll have a costume that respects her origins AND looks like something that isn't designed to be ogled.

 

[Hunter Rider]

I can't be bothered to go back through everything, is this whole debate over whether Wonder Woman will wear Pants in the movie?

 

[Travesty]

I vote for WW to wear baggy pants and a hoodie. Not even an ankle shall be shown.

Not even an ankle!!!

 

[flickchick85]

^ Hopefully with a more balanced audience for film-goers we'll have a costume that respects her origins AND looks like something that isn't designed to be ogled.

Agreed.

 

[The Shape]

I vote for WW to wear baggy pants and a hoodie. Not even an ankle shall be shown.

Not even an ankle!!!

 

[Travesty]