"Gangland" Season 2: Episode 23 Discussion Thread

[Webhead2006]

well dread another great review for you. Cant wait to here what u have to say about the last few episodes.

 

[Dread]

well dread another great review for you. Cant wait to here what u have to say about the last few episodes.

Thanks. Review for the neglected "SUBTEXT" is up.

 

[nygma619]

He took quite a few shots from Dr. Octopus and Silvermane before fighting Spider-Man himself.

Yeah but none of those "shots" really felt like they slowed him down at all. And if they did slow him down, they didn't do a very good job of showing that.

And he still managed to hammer Spidey quite a bit before Spidey basically hit him in the face with an engine or something. At some point Tombstone had to suffer a setback, and I thought it was well handled. It isn't like he was jailed or defeated for very long anyway.

I find that engine excuse to be incredibly weak. He still lost regardless of who used what. You think people talk about how David only beating Goliath was because he used a slingshot?
I wrote something on a couple pages before this about how this fight should've been a draw/unsettled and how to handle Tombstone's exposure to the public. (So see that)
I also wrote something in that same post about how to handle Tombstone for a storyline in season 3.

Tombstone was Spidey's #1 enemy to this point because of two effective elements. His resources and his ability to dominate.
I felt any changes to those two elements needed to be handled carefully:
If your going to damage his resources, it should be done AFTER Tombstone uses them on Spidey to their fullest potential (which they never were).
And if your gonna have Spidey beat Tombstone legitimately, it needed to be done in a fashion where Tombstone gives Spidey one of his toughest fights he experiences. (which this wasn't, his Kraven battle, and his

Spoiler

Final Goblin battle

were staged alot better in terms of how much of a fight Spidey had to put up to win). This fight with Tombstone didn't feel poignant enough.

The only way I could see them salvaging this is if Tombstone reveals he threw the fight knowing that he had to come from out of the sewer. But then he'd have to explain a beaten or killed Spider-Man which would bring up serious questioning with Ock already knocked out. All he had to do was give Spider-Man a convincing fight then get dragged up but believed Spidey had nothing to prove Tombs as the Big Man, but he didn't count on a reporter over hearing his conversations being the big man thus puting him in hot water.
Thus fixing half the problem right here. And it's not like Greg hasn't done twists like this before.

Spoiler

see the goblin revealings in the finale

I thought it was a sufficient climax. They wanted Tombstone's arc to have an ending without completely removing any potential for another in Season 3. Don't want to burn all those bridges now.

That's fine if they don't want to burn their bridges, but for me the way they handled Tombstone's situation, it just didn't hit the right notes, in terms of staging, writing the right things at the right time, etc.

 

[nygma619]

Awesome as he is, Tombstone is nowhere near the kind of power level as any of the above. I'm also not sure how you'd raise the stakes with him either, as he's pretty much hit the pinnacle of power he wants.

Sure he wasn't as strong as those guys mentioned above. But up till now he was portrayed as stronger than Spidey instantly by defeating him in 5 seconds. No other villain could lay claim to that. Same thing applies to those villains I mentioned.

He was the undisputed head of the criminal underworld for all of the first season and most of the second, with no indication that he wants anything beyond that

How do we know he doesn't? Unless someone says differently, then how do we have anything to measure how far his ambitions desire?

Really, something had to happen to shake up the underworld or else Tombstone risked becoming TAS Kingpin- a villain who could never be touched and who never really had his situation changed.

Apocalypse in X-Men Evolution would disagree with you. I'm not opposed to a shakeup I just think there were far more interesting ways to shake things up than what we got here, sacrificing the #1 villain, just so the #2 villain could look like he's #1 was the reason he took a fall in this episode.

If Tombstone was to fall in any form it should've
a.) had a better buildup
b.) Spidey's first physical victory should've happened in an actual arc that featured him vs. Tombstone. Not Spidey getting in the middle of other villains, and getting a victory over Tombstone as a bonus. Considering Spidey got creamed in 5 seconds in their first encounter, this victory should've felt more poignant. It didn't, Spidey's victory felt like a villain of the week victory.

This would quickly become stale and boring, in my opinion, which is a far greater threat to a cool villain than losing a battle every once and a while.

Who says that Spidey's victory couldn't come like say next season? And Tombstone had been handled far better than Kingpin was till this point.

Besides, if you stop to think about it Spidey only beat Tombstone after a huge brawl involving several villains, after which Lincoln (this version of whom possesses no special powers we are as yet aware of) was probably tired and therefore easier to defeat.

Spidey fought nearly as much of the battle that Tombstone did and took nearly as much damage, and Tombstone showed no signs of slowing down

(Their first confrontation doesn't count- in that case it was Spidey who was tired from fighting Rhino,

Spidey didn't show any signs of fatigue after his battle with The Rhino.

and he probably expected the Big Man to be physical pushover. As a result, Tombstone was able to surprise him and pin him.)

Tombstone surprised him from the first blow from his desk, Spidey had a chance to counter, but Tombstone still overpowered him. Nothing Spidey did in those 5 seconds worked. Going from that to Spidey defeating Tombstone was a huge (and unconvincing) jump.

Besides, assuming that we get a third season, we'll probably see Tombstone working to regain control of his empire, giving plenty more oppurtunities for awesomeness.

Yes but will he ever have the same presence or be as cool as he once was when he was first introduced?
My gut instinct tells me no, considering the liberties taken with his character. But Weisman and Co. could prove me wrong, question is I don't know how they could get him back to where he was from a writing standpoint, as a dominant figure in Spec. Spidey's rogue's gallery.

Spidey's 1st victory over Tombstone needed better buildup than what we got here.

 

[Silver Spider]

I really don't want to get into this debate, but in Spidey's defense, all he tried against Tombstone was one punch, which which was blocked and countered. During their first encounter Spider-Man seriously underestimated Tomby, and in the second fight he was definitely more prepared. Despite this Tombstone still dominanted for most of the fight, with Spidey only landing some lucky hits, until the final blow to the face.

 

[November Rain]

to make up for it, i would like to see tombstone put spidey in hospital in their next confrontation.

i would say that's a fair compromise and re-establishes their struggle

tombstone is proabably the best higher tier villain the program, they should make sure he doesn't come across as second tier to goblin and ock.

they could really make a serious impact with his future in the comics if they play him properly.

there's nothing better than me than b and c list villains getting their chance in the spotlight.

 

[Silver Spider]

I kind of want Silvermane to get some of his power back.
I think it'd be interesting to see an arc where the Manfredi criminal empire is re-established, and see how Spidey deals with it, compared to Tombstone's.
I'd also like to know what Hammerhead is doing now.

 

[The Joker]

Just looking at the poll, this episode seems to be the best rated so far. It's the only one that has not been scored lower than an 8.

 

[brianbuck]

Thanks, Venom1988!

Gwen on Valentine's Day without glasses
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/8756/gwenn.jpg

Joan Jameson
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/1280/joan.jpg

Silvermane
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/3137/silvermane1.jpg

Silvermane in battle
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/3968/silvermane2.jpg

Remember these two from "Reaction"?
http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/1228/couplek.jpg
__________________

I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed that the couple Spidey webbed together in Reaction end up getting engaged in this episode. I'll just bet they have a baby by season 3.

 

[Webhead2006]

well that would be a little hard for them to have a baby that soon. they only been dating for a short time pre the engagement and since the season took place dec-march season three would be likely set between april-july period.

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed that the couple Spidey webbed together in Reaction end up getting engaged in this episode. I'll just bet they have a baby by season 3.

It's possible, lol.


t:

 

[November Rain]

Just looking at the poll, this episode seems to be the best rated so far. It's the only one that has not been scored lower than an 8.

i think people enjoy villains battling each other than heroes, especially if they are being badass

it also had the perfect blend of parker and spiderman story which is also a bonus and cliffhanging endings help as well

 

[The Joker]

i think people enjoy villains battling each other than heroes, especially if they are being badass

it also had the perfect blend of parker and spiderman story which is also a bonus and cliffhanging endings help as well

I agree.

Hands down the greatest battle of the series. Bar none.

 

[November Rain]

i would put that down to tombstone's first meeting with spidey.

spidey got put in his place physically and psychologically and tombstone revealed his pieces and where spidey lied. Having him create supervillains to keep him busy so his thugs still go out and do their business was genius. It showed spidey was small fry and established tombstone as a great threat.

while ganglands was great, it did nullify this a lil by showing he inherited silvermane's kingdom by default and ock had quickly risen to a similar level.

 

[The Joker]

You think Tombstone should rank as high as Gobby and Ock in the villain stakes?

 

[November Rain]

I think any character put in the big man position should.

while not necessarily being a direct threat to spiderman, he should run the criminal organisation.

The idea of spiderman being in a similar school position to peter parker with tombstone being the big jock that society loves and can do no wrong is a great one. It also plays well against eddie being a bully like figure.

I've always like the idea of an empowered peter being effectively as powerless to stop crime as parker is from stopping the stupid laws of high school

 

[Doctor Jones]

Absolutely love Tombstone in this show. Definatley my top favorite villains.

I'd be down with him in a film if he was done this way.

 

[SpaceWay2009]

^I agree with you, Doctor Jones!

 

[November Rain]

alot of credit has to go on his voice acting

 

[nygma619]

while ganglands was great, it did nullify this a lil by showing he inherited silvermane's kingdom by default and ock had quickly risen to a similar level.

I don't know if he inherited it by default, I think he obviously fought to get to where he was, and I have no problem with that.

But when you have a crime boss like Tombstone out class Spidey in their first encounter in 5 seconds. Having Spidey win their second encounter clean strikes me as counter productive.

IMO having Tombstone remain better than Spidey in hand to hand combat (or his equal) added something more to him that no other villain had.

You think Tombstone should rank as high as Gobby and Ock in the villain stakes?

I think it was obvious that Tombstone was numero uno as far as Spider-Man's villains on this show go, up until this episode. Up until this point, Green Goblin and Doc Ock weren't even in his league.

 

[Mistah K88]

Absolutely love Tombstone in this show. Definatley my top favorite villains.

I'd be down with him in a film if he was done this way.

Agreed, hopefully, his Mr Freeze style re-vamp works its way into comics as well... just like Victor Fries' backstory and character did...

I do want to see Tombstone as a major player if the Gang War spills over into season 3. The new Big Man was beaten within a couple weeks I believe. It would be more badass if Tombstone was able to regain his status WITH the government watching him.

I also hope that Silvermane and Sable become more prominent figures in the new gang war. Same with Hammerhead starting his own share in the organized crime racket.

 

[MasterGandalf]

How do we know he doesn't? Unless someone says differently, then how do we have anything to measure how far his ambitions desire?

You can tell a villain's (or any character's, for that matter) motivations by his actions, even if they're not explicitly stated- and Tombstone's actions all indicate a man who is working to maintain a status quo he finds favorable. We see him reacting to threats against his criminal empire, but never trying to increase his power for its own sake. Therefore, I think it's fairly safe to say that Tombstone's goal is simply to remain the most powerful figure in the New York underworld.

Apocalypse in X-Men Evolution would disagree with you. I'm not opposed to a shakeup I just think there were far more interesting ways to shake things up than what we got here, sacrificing the #1 villain, just so the #2 villain could look like he's #1 was the reason he took a fall in this episode.

If Tombstone was to fall in any form it should've
a.) had a better buildup
b.) Spidey's first physical victory should've happened in an actual arc that featured him vs. Tombstone. Not Spidey getting in the middle of other villains, and getting a victory over Tombstone as a bonus. Considering Spidey got creamed in 5 seconds in their first encounter, this victory should've felt more poignant. It didn't, Spidey's victory felt like a villain of the week victory.

I'll admit I've not see Evolution (though I plan to soon), but I disagree with your fundamental premise- that a villain loses his cool factor after being beaten by the hero. To use another villain you brought up as an example, take Darkseid from the DCAU. At the climax of 'Legacy', Superman gives him a far worse beating than anything Spider-man dished out on Tombstone- I fully believe he would have killed him had Supergirl and Darkseid's slaves not intervened. (Keep in mind that until this point Darkseid has dominated Superman utterly effortlessly). When Darkseid returns in Justice League, however, he hasn't lost one iota of his menace factor- because that menace always came not from power, but from his cunning, resourcefulness, and utter malice. Darkseid wasn't just the one villain who could beat Superman in a fight- he was the one villain who knew how to twist the Man of Steel to his own ends and enjoy it. I believe that Tombstone is the same way.

Also, I'd argue that Norman Osborn (not Green Goblin, but Osborn as a whole) has been villain #1 from the beginning- it's just that nobody noticed. Look back at the series in light of the finale, and it's obvious that Norman is responsible (directly or indirectly) for the events of every major arc except for Lizard and Venom. (and my pet theory is that he was the captain of industry who hired Black Cat, which if true makes him indirectly responsible for Venom as well.)

Spidey has traditionally, I would argue, had four top villains- Norman Osborn, Doc Ock, Venom, and a mob figure (Kingpin in most adaptations, Tombstone in this one). Beeing foiled by another top villain is no shame- particularly if you manage to get back at them later.

Yes but will he ever have the same presence or be as cool as he once was when he was first introduced?
My gut instinct tells me no, considering the liberties taken with his character. But Weisman and Co. could prove me wrong, question is I don't know how they could get him back to where he was from a writing standpoint, as a dominant figure in Spec. Spidey's rogue's gallery.

Spidey's 1st victory over Tombstone needed better buildup than what we got here.

How to make Tombstone as menacing as he was before? Same way they did with Darkseid- show him rise from the ashes of his defeat, prove himself superior to other villains and to the hero, and prove once and for all why he is the Big Man. If anything, I personally would have even more respect for the character after seeing him succeed without his resources as well as he did with them.

 

[Anwar]

Spidey has traditionally, I would argue, had four top villains- Norman Osborn, Doc Ock, Venom, and a mob figure (Kingpin in most adaptations, Tombstone in this one).

Don't forget Jameson, he's pretty much been as big a villain in Peter's life as guys like Ock. I mean if it weren't for Jameson the city would probably love Spidey and he'd have a way better rep. He's actually one of the most successful Spidey villains.

 

[The Joker]

Don't forget Jameson, he's pretty much been as big a villain in Peter's life as guys like Ock.

Most of the time nobody believes Jameson's smear campaign in the Bugle against Spidey. He often ends up with egg on his face when Spidey is proven to be a hero.

Jameson is a better villain than Venom though

 

[MasterGandalf]

Don't forget Jameson, he's pretty much been as big a villain in Peter's life as guys like Ock. I mean if it weren't for Jameson the city would probably love Spidey and he'd have a way better rep. He's actually one of the most successful Spidey villains.

Jameson is only Spidey's top nemesis in his own mind, and is usually played for laughs. About the only times Spidey takes him seriously is when there's something else bad going on at the same time. Also, he's not evil- just a jerk.

I'm not saying he's not a great character, but comparing him to the likes of Doc Ock and Tombstone is just silly.